Trim...again.

[104th_Crunch]

Welcome to the forums Wizz. Very nice imformative post. Thanks!

Edited August 21, 2009 by Crunch

[Shepski]

Ya... welcome Wizz!

 

I'm still using the older trim implementation in the frequent "trim and move" style. I use the FD mode when running in for a rocket/strafe attack or any hard/evasive maneuvering so I don't have to fight the AP channels when I'm trying to survive. Any aerobatics I do is with the FD on as well.

 

I tried the new trimmer system and found it was difficult to get used to re-centering the stick all the time and I hated the times I felt like I had no control. I haven't messed with the values as of yet but will try it out and see how it goes.

 

Subs... I use all 4 channels.

[nemises]

I can see why people would use FD if using the trim button like a space invaders fire button :P

 

If you press and hold the trim button, the heli responds like it's in F/D mode, but then re-engages all AP channels once released...

 

..of course it's down to personal preference!..just putting it out there

[SUBS17]

I fly with the big three on (as the real BS pilots must do - according to this forum) and trim constantly.

 

I also make heavy use of the Route mode to not only keep me on course, but also stabilise flight when a waypoint or airport isn't selected (I find this very useful). With Route mode I also use alt hold alot to control my altitude (baro or rad as applic).

 

I have never really used FD mode for two reasons. 1) I don't fully understand it; and 2) I just don't feel a requirement to use it (maybe down to ignorance but I get by ok without out it).

 

Because I don't use a FB stick, I will tend to open up the cyclic/collective/pedal indicator (R Ctrl-Entr) to center my cyclic and pedals a bit more before approach. This is not ideal, but saves me fighting the controls when bringing the ac into a hover and holding it. I still have trouble keeping the thing in one place from inside the cockpit, and can only manage a very messy 'rookie' hover. In RL the momentum of the ac and your peripheral vision help enormously!

 

I haven't bothered with Route mode but I'll look into it once I've got the other stuff sorted thanks for the info.:thumbup:

 

Ya... welcome Wizz!

 

I'm still using the older trim implementation in the frequent "trim and move" style. I use the FD mode when running in for a rocket/strafe attack or any hard/evasive maneuvering so I don't have to fight the AP channels when I'm trying to survive. Any aerobatics I do is with the FD on as well.

 

I tried the new trimmer system and found it was difficult to get used to re-centering the stick all the time and I hated the times I felt like I had no control. I haven't messed with the values as of yet but will try it out and see how it goes.

 

Subs... I use all 4 channels.

 

Rgr thanks for the info Shepski it was the recentering that got me with the new trimmer option, haven't tried the FD mode but I'll try it out in my next flight.

[Chops]

I have watched the Producer's Notes, read the Readme files, and read posts on this forum regarding trim....however, I am still struggling to get it figured out. I am a professional corporate fixed-wing pilot, and really trying to get my head wrapped around this helo trim system.

 

I am currently using the new trimmer mode that came with the 1.0.1 patch, and have a CH Fighterstick and CH Pro Pedals (both USB). I have a basic MAP setup in the CH Control Manager for my controls, and then programmed the various buttons, etc. within the Black Shark - Options - Menu. I am using the Simulation Mode also. I have Bank Hold, Hdg Hold, and Pitch Hold set on the autopilot, and always fly with these on.

 

The way I use trim is as follows:

 

If I want to climb for example, I will move my Fighterstick to set a 5 degree pitch up angle on the HUD pitch scale, then press and release the trim button, and quickly let the Fighterstick and my pedals return to their center positions. However, when using this method, I always seem to get pitch oscillations. The helo seems to bounce up and down, up to five degrees in pitch. This happens when climbing or descending.

 

Additionally, when banking the helicopter it seems to oscillate in the horizontal as well. Flying this helicopter never feels crisp, instead it always feels sloppy when trying to maneuver.

 

I use R-Ctrl + Enter to see whether or not my controls are in the center positon, and they seem to be centered.

 

Am I using trim properly or is something else going on?

Edited August 21, 2009 by Chops
Added info on Autopilot usage

[Celo63]

Once again, thx for all the info guys. All very helpful.

 

GGTharos, you said - "If you're not using trim you're not doing it right, that's all I can say."

 

Problem is, I'm not doing anything at all yet - still have to upgrade my PC and buy the sim. lol :D Just trying to get a head start by working towards understand the systems a bit before I am up and running. :book:

 

You also said - "Unless you really want to feel the pain..."

 

Is that the pain of physically resisting the forces building up on your stick, or the pain of becoming a smoking hole in the ground when you run out of control authority? :cry:

 

My stick would just flop over if I let it go btw. I'm considering adding some light centering force with rubber bands or something so I can let it go if I want to. Bit of a pain having to keep hold of it constantly. I get by but its not ideal.

 

So, I kind of understand the trim system and its usage now. Next thing I need to look at is the autopilot and its relationship with the flight director, but I guess this isn't the thread for that discussion.

 

Can anyone point me to the best info available on that topic? Much obliged :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Something else is going on - I can't describe it very well myself, but I think ericinexile did. I'll try to find the post.

 

Am I using trim properly or is something else going on?

[GGTharos]

Once again, thx for all the info guys. All very helpful.

 

GGTharos, you said - "If you're not using trim you're not doing it right, that's all I can say."

 

Problem is, I'm not doing anything at all yet - still have to upgrade my PC and buy the sim. lol :D Just trying to get a head start by working towards understand the systems a bit before I am up and running. :book:

 

Yeah ... I think you might need to have the game for this one. ;)

 

You also said - "Unless you really want to feel the pain..."

 

Is that the pain of physically resisting the forces building up on your stick, or the pain of becoming a smoking hole in the ground when you run out of control authority? :cry:

 

I meant the stick, but sure, why not - both :D

 

 

So, I kind of understand the trim system and its usage now. Next thing I need to look at is the autopilot and its relationship with the flight director, but I guess this isn't the thread for that discussion.

 

Can anyone point me to the best info available on that topic? Much obliged :thumbup:

 

Flight director turns off the attitude hold channels (not stabilization) and displays cues to fly to on the HUD, to maintain course as the autopilot would. Thus, Flight Director.

 

Many sim pilots use it to get rid of the autopilot influence.

[osok]

I've had the sim for a while and finally got used to the old style trimming. I think I prefer the new better. Thanks Eagle for giving us a choice.

[Chops]

Will someone please respond to my previous post in this thread...I really need some assistance with trim. Every time I release the trim button, I get pitch oscillations. I have tried the old trim system and the new one, and still have the same problem. In fact, I can't tell any difference between the two trim systems.

[159th_Viper]

Will someone please respond to my previous post in this thread...I really need some assistance with trim. Every time I release the trim button, I get pitch oscillations. I have tried the old trim system and the new one, and still have the same problem. In fact, I can't tell any difference between the two trim systems.

 

See Post #1 of the thread. Probably the post GG was alluding to also.

 

In addition, post a track of a short flight where you are experiencing the behaviour you described. Will be able to assist further from there :)

[Chops]

Yes, I have read the first post in this thread...several times. My track is attached. I am using the original trim system in Simulation Mode. I also edited the Producers.cfg file to False, for Force Feedback.

 

Thanks for your help.

Trim.zip

[nemises]

Will someone please respond to my previous post in this thread...I really need some assistance with trim. Every time I release the trim button, I get pitch oscillations. I have tried the old trim system and the new one, and still have the same problem. In fact, I can't tell any difference between the two trim systems.

 

*edit* the new method is to help those of us with centering force joysticks (ie springs!).....in watching your track, I can definately see the ocillations you are experienceing, and it sure seems to be from double transformation once releasing trim....this should not occur with a FFB joystick....if it is NOT a Force Feedback joystick, then you are doing it wrong ;) you need to recenter the stick / pedals within a micro second of releasing trim OR use the new trim method which will allow you to recenter with no time limit....you might be tripping up on actual real world habits and you are just not used to re-centering a springy joystick*

 

 

/* irrelivant dribble below

If you get pitch ocillations with the new trim method, then something is wrong...the new trim system specifically stops ANY input from the controllers untill they are physically centered, and this (in anyone elses setup) would mean that when control is returned, NO input is beeing sent from the joystick/rudders untill you move them off center, hence no accidental pitch/roll and no ocillations.

 

So, I expect 1 of several possible things

 

1) you are not flying with the a/p stabalisers on

2) you are using the old trim method only (we "all" get ocillations with this!)

3) you are not using version 1.01a (ie. no new trim method)

4) there is something very wring with your joystick...you must check it in windows control panel, and look for input spikes in the pitch / roll axis!

5) you have more than one axis assigned to pitch / roll

 

*/

Edited August 27, 2009 by nemises

[nemises]

also, try the "press and hold" method where you press and hold the trimmer at the start of any manuever, and keep it held during the maneuver (say a 15 degree right bank), KEEP it held untill wings level again, then release and recenter stick/rudder.

[159th_Viper]

.....My track is attached. I am using the original trim system in Simulation Mode.

 

 

Then you will have pitch oscillations.........Post a track captured with the new 'Default' Trim system activated.

[Chops]

Thanks for your help guys. It will probably br Monday before I have a chance to check out the things you mentioned, and to post a new track.

[Chops]

New Trim

 

Here is a track with the new trimmer system enabled. I am still getting pitch oscillations, and it seems worse than when I was using the original trim system. I checked my controller settings under Options, and did not see any duplicate entries.

 

I have CH Fighterstick and CH Pro Pedals. Neither are Force Feedback controls.

New Trim.zip

Edited September 2, 2009 by Chops

[EinsteinEP]

Yo, Chops! Just watched your track and I didn't see anything weird going on with the autopilot.

 

One possible spot you may be talking about is at about (about 12:05 according to your ABRIS page in the track) when you put the helo in a nose up attitude to slow down. Your controls get "centered" when you release the Trimmer button and the AP tries to maintain that nose up attitude. But, because you're slowing down, it takes more and more back cyclic to maintain that nose up, and the autopilot keeps using more and more of its control authority in the fore/back cyclic axis and, in fact, gets saturated near the end: you can see the nose starting to drop from the assigned attitude. At this point, the AP is holding its full 20% back cyclic, trying to pull the nose back up. When you press the Trimmer button again at 12:05:05, that 20% force gets zeroed out, so you get a little bump as the total cyclic input (pilot + autopilot) suddenly jumps up 20%.

 

The cure for this is to trim often and to hold the Trimmer button down when making attitude changes or changes to the flight condition. Autopilot control feedback forces are zeroed whenever you hold the Trimmer button down, not just when you release it.

 

As an example, when slowing down or accelerating with the autopilot, I will occasionally press and hold the Trimmer button down, making sure the chopper is in the attitude I want it, then let the Trimmer button go.

 

Does that help?

[Chops]

Einstein, Thanks for checking out the track.

 

My technique for trimming is to set the pitch attitude that I want (for example 5 degrees nose up), press the trim button, release the trim button, and let my CH Fighterstick return to the center position.

 

When I do this, I get pitch oscillations (up to 5 degrees and sometimes more), which I believe are shown in my track. At one point in the track the pitch changed at least 5 degrees after using the technique that I mentioned above.

 

Nemisis - regarding your previous post. I have tried holding down the trim button while manuevering..however the helicopter still feels sloppy, and seems to bounce around. Controlling it does not feel crisp, like a fixed-wing airplane. Is this just the way a helicopter fly's?

Edited September 2, 2009 by Chops

[twoarms]

Einstein, Thanks for checking out the track.

 

My technique for trimming is to set the pitch attitude that I want (for example 5 degrees nose up), press the trim button, release the trim button, and let my CH Fighterstick return to the center position.

 

 

i press trim BEFORE i make my manouvre and hold it till i finish.then release and re-centre stick....works for me:)

[RealDCSpilot]

@ericinexile

 

please consider that there a two new HOTAS flightsystems with FFB are coming up. the logitech g940 is already released and saitek will release the new x65 system. FFB trim is the 3rd trim method in BS and it's a really special game feature, you can't compare it to the non-ffb ones. the more users will get the new systems in the near future, the more the trim-issue will come up again. thats what i think. :music_whistling: (started a whole new thread by myself about this... ;) )

[Ightenhill]

.

 

 

i press trim BEFORE i make my manouvre and hold it till i finish.then release and re-centre stick....works for me:)

 

I'm guessing that would suggest its the release of the button that records the value, as I press it when I have set the pitch then release it almost immediatley to trim..

[twoarms]

how i understand it is when you press the trimmer it disengages the autopilot allowing you to manouvre without the ap restraints,then when you release it it re-engages the autopilot.so the trimmer kind of acts like an autopilot pause button...if that makes sense.

[Maciver]

how i understand it is when you press the trimmer it disengages the autopilot allowing you to manouvre without the ap restraints,then when you release it it re-engages the autopilot.so the trimmer kind of acts like an autopilot pause button...if that makes sense.

 

First off, Hello everyone! Finally bought BS and am thoughly enjoying it. I played lock on with you all for a few years, was alot of fun.

 

I have been trying to soak up everything aswell, and currently am trying to wrap my head around the trimming and AP systems.

 

After playing for a bit, I have been doing it like twoarms. Am i correct in thinking this would be the proper way with an x52? So, if i had a FFB stick, i would just click trim and release? It seems to me, like twoarms has said, it's sort of like a pause button, so wouldnt you use it the same way with a FFB stick? I can see reasons to use both methods, but I'd like to use it the proper way, if you will. Holding it seems like the most logical choice with either stick, but then again, im not a real pilot! :)

 

FD is another issue all together. Doesn't seem to do anything at all for me. I understand the purpose I believe. However, when I turn it on the chopper just banks to the right slightly, no matter what your bank was when you activated it. If i was banking left at 5 degrees, with no input, then turn in on, it banks right 5. With FD on does it require constant input from the pilot? I was under the impression it would still hold attitude if you where hands free.

 

Ok, back to reading and practicing. :book:

[Eldur]

The trim system is designed for an FFB stick (to keep things simple), which is exactly how the real thing works. You move the stick, you trim, it stays there.

 

It's a touch more complicated: It zeroes the forces on the stick in that position. The farther you move the stick from that position the more force you must use.

 

In this respect, the preferred method to fly is short move, trim. You don't need to hold the trimmer down at all, just move, trim, move, trim, move, trim.

 

This is most realistically accomplished using an FFB stick.

 

I have the FFB2 and it's great. I used to fly with Yaw AP off to overcome it's tendency to pull me back on the given course while maneouvering and keeping it on while flying straight or hovering. The trim feels nice for the stick, but there's a major issue. The rudder is still trimmed in the non-FFB way and that means after some trimming it isn't centered in the Ka-50 while it is below my desk. And that makes it extremely hard to center it again.

Apart from that issue I just wonder why it needs huge amount of rudder to keep the ball centered in a straight flight with coax rotors (even with all AP channels on). I don't know the exact physics but I'd like to know why it still slips like hell then.

A third thing I found strange while hovering is the fact that the Shark always flips over backwards with a neutralized trim. I've got to trim it a bit forward first to keep it where I want it. This is not documented at all. The lessons and the manual just say like "kick in the Hover Autopilot and there you go". I've always 20-30km/h backwards speed without using the trim to compensate for that.