F16 - Please, start the fixing and stop to implement new issues.

[Nedum]

Hi,

when can we expect the F16 to work as well as it did at the beginning of this year?
The FCR and the cooperating modules are in a terrible state.
Especially the functions concerning the TWS. There are so many issues, and, as if that's not enough, with every new patch we get more of them, mostly related to each other. So guess what, 2 new TWS bugs were added with this patch.
Many of the problems are known for several months and have not been fixed even after 3 major updates.

Look at the F16 FCR, especially the TWS section. It's a mess right now. The sad thing is, it has worked pretty well in the past! 1000 times better than now. Instead, fixing all those stone old bugs, you add the new ground radar shadows, but you can't fix the sticking to the cross bug for the ground radar. 

That all wouldn't be a problem, if the F16 systems never worked better in the past, but most, if not all, did! In the past, the F16 Radar and all the modules were working much better than now!

Are you not aware in what bad state the F16 Module is right now?

All that was starting with the first big patch this year, and since then it gets worse and worse. One fix, two new issues. Two fixes, four new issues. The Bug-Section is full of "stone old" Bugs, reported but not fixed.
I suggest instead of constantly implementing new "features" for the F16, or new modules, you should start to fix all the game breaking bugs at first. Am I right?
It's no problem, if the progress is "not fast", but it's a huge problem, if the progress seems to be that we will get more and more bugs for systems who worked very well before.

 

Some known F16 bugs:

 

1. F16 Switching modes, Dogfight/ missile resets the radar setting

2. TMS up command starts a radar slew from left azimuth locking the first target that comes into its sight (ACM mode)

3. radar in "NO RAD" with JHMCS still locks targets ( ACM mode)

4. TWS: Cancelling a Cursor/Bugged Target doesn't return Azimuth Scan Limits to a normal TWS scan

5. AG Radar Image sticking to Crosshairs (it's marked as fixed with this patch, but it isn't)

6. Unable to use Spotlight in TWS

7. Air Boresight Issues

8. F-16 Radar takes too long to create track targets with FCR in TWS

9. IFF MASTER Selector behaviour

10. Difficulty upgrading Track Targets to System Targets

.........

And there are many, many more.

 

If it takes me 5 Minutes of testing to find 2 new bugs (TWS section) coming with this patch, jumping right into my face, I can say for sure, nobody ever tested it.

I found 2 new bugs in less than 5 minutes. So now, after this patch, we not only can't have a stable MFD setting with RWS or TWS, we now can't switch back from TWS to RWS with the long TMS right press anymore. And, as if this wasn't enough "fun", we can't spotlight in TWS anymore. A small hint, both things worked pretty well till this patch.

At the end, some small fixes and 2 new bugs. Not good.

The F16 is no fun right now. I need for most of the systems workarounds, more than ever before. The "funny" part is, there were no new systems implemented. Those systems are old, but getting filled with new bugs every new patch.  So I have to ask: "What's going on?"

Why you (ED) add so many bugs to working systems without any reason? The 2 new bugs are made because of what? The F16 systems are old. They worked well. And now, instead of fixing the old bugs, you add more new issues. Stop it, please.

Please fix the bugs and stop to implement new ones!

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Edited October 5, 2024 by Nedum

[LeopardLenin]

I really hope BN and/or NL respond, these are such major issues that arent being addressed. I say they should release the Sniper pod and after just fix bugs, Until a VERY long time. I would even be happy if they didnt release the Sniper pod and just started fixing now.

[Nedum]

17 minutes ago, LeopardLenin said:

I really hope BN and/or NL respond, these are such major issues that arent being addressed. I say they should release the Sniper pod and after just fix bugs, Until a VERY long time. I would even be happy if they didnt release the Sniper pod and just started fixing now.

Yep, all I know is, that the current pod is a mix of the old and the sniper pod to "test" it. Isn't our DCS World version the stable on? So, why do we have to test this in the stable version? I thought, the stable version is for stable things!?

At the beginning of this year, the F16 was so much fun. Most systems were working well, but now, I play some minutes and I start to get frustrated, because of all the issues coming to system who worked well in the past, without any reason.

If they have never worked before, I could understand that, but that, no, that's BS.

Right now, I need workarounds for workaround with every new patch.

Not happy with that, and it seems it doesn't care ED much.

[NineLine]

Hey All, so firstly, all those listed bugs or issues have all been reported. This is a common issue in Early Access products and in fact, shows more so that it's being worked on. As new systems and features are added, it can affect older systems either unintentionally or by design in order for new things to be added. We do our best to mitigate these issues, but it's not always possible. Also, rarely do these issues make it past our Q&A team or Tester team (and are known before anyone), and just because they are marked reported on the forums does not mean we missed them, we are only acknowledging that these are reported. We do not enjoy or look at adding new issues, but it can be the downside of active development on a very complex aircraft. Most early-access aircraft see very similar problems.

Next, "that the current pod is a mix of the old and the sniper pod to "test" it", This was never the case, it was not a mix of pods put in to test. It had nothing to do with testing. The Hybrid pod will be removed when the sniper is released, that is the only relation it has to that development. By the way, DCS itself may be referenced as stable or not a testing build, but as long as a module is in Early Access, it can be considered less than stable due to active development. A stable release of DCS as a whole does not include the status of any addon modules. You have been around a long time, I think you know that. 

To expand on the above "If they have never worked before, I could understand that, but that, no, that's BS." These systems are complex and intertwined, work on one thing that might touch on another system can risk an issue popping up. This is the nature of development on a complex modern fighter. We are not able to copy and paste these systems into DCS, in many cases, they are being designed from scratch with very little documentation to go on. Again, this is the nature of Early Access and active development. 

Lastly, "it seems it doesn't care ED much.", This is completely untrue, the F-16C is a flagship product in DCS, it's one of the most important modules we have released to date. It has some of the most active developments of our modules. It is still in Early Access and it is still seeing heavy development. Yes there are known issues and these are and will be addressed, but suggesting we don't care about this module is strange to me personally. Again, I must point out that everything you listed is acknowledged and reported. This is not a sign of not caring at all. 

Thanks.

PS I should mention that there are no shared engineers, these systems being as complex and work-intensive to program means that a dev cannot bounce around from project to project or even system to system. So it's not a case of why this guy moved to that. Especially when you talk about art, core issues, etc. A good example is the work on the Sniper, the development on that is complex and extensive, and the dev(s) working on that will focus solely on that and that alone. It's not something you can bounce around between, as well it's not something someone who specializes in models, effects or core programming even can just jump into.

We have highly specialized individuals at ED, much like you see at 3rd Parties who have a person who does art, someone who does FMs, etc.  It goes further into Helos, Western or Eastern Systems, etc. 

[El Vikingo]

11 hours ago, NineLine said:

Hey All, so firstly, all those listed bugs or issues have all been reported. This is a common issue in Early Access products and in fact, shows more so that it's being worked on. As new systems and features are added, it can affect older systems either unintentionally or by design in order for new things to be added. We do our best to mitigate these issues, but it's not always possible. Also, rarely do these issues make it past our Q&A team or Tester team (and are known before anyone), and just because they are marked reported on the forums does not mean we missed them, we are only acknowledging that these are reported. We do not enjoy or look at adding new issues, but it can be the downside of active development on a very complex aircraft. Most early-access aircraft see very similar problems.

Next, "that the current pod is a mix of the old and the sniper pod to "test" it", This was never the case, it was not a mix of pods put in to test. It had nothing to do with testing. The Hybrid pod will be removed when the sniper is released, that is the only relation it has to that development. By the way, DCS itself may be referenced as stable or not a testing build, but as long as a module is in Early Access, it can be considered less than stable due to active development. A stable release of DCS as a whole does not include the status of any addon modules. You have been around a long time, I think you know that. 

To expand on the above "If they have never worked before, I could understand that, but that, no, that's BS." These systems are complex and intertwined, work on one thing that might touch on another system can risk an issue popping up. This is the nature of development on a complex modern fighter. We are not able to copy and paste these systems into DCS, in many cases, they are being designed from scratch with very little documentation to go on. Again, this is the nature of Early Access and active development. 

Lastly, "it seems it doesn't care ED much.", This is completely untrue, the F-16C is a flagship product in DCS, it's one of the most important modules we have released to date. It has some of the most active developments of our modules. It is still in Early Access and it is still seeing heavy development. Yes there are known issues and these are and will be addressed, but suggesting we don't care about this module is strange to me personally. Again, I must point out that everything you listed is acknowledged and reported. This is not a sign of not caring at all. 

Thanks.

PS I should mention that there are no shared engineers, these systems being as complex and work-intensive to program means that a dev cannot bounce around from project to project or even system to system. So it's not a case of why this guy moved to that. Especially when you talk about art, core issues, etc. A good example is the work on the Sniper, the development on that is complex and extensive, and the dev(s) working on that will focus solely on that and that alone. It's not something you can bounce around between, as well it's not something someone who specializes in models, effects or core programming even can just jump into.

We have highly specialized individuals at ED, much like you see at 3rd Parties who have a person who does art, someone who does FMs, etc.  It goes further into Helos, Western or Eastern Systems, etc. 

A lot of information, thanks! When can we expect all these bugs to be fixed. I assume that is what @Nedum really asks for. I want to purchase Reflected’s upcoming Kola Campaing, but will wait until the bugs have been deloused.

Edited October 6, 2024 by El Vikingo

[YoYo]

31 minutes ago, El Vikingo said:

A lot of information, thanks! When can we expect all these bugs to be fixed. I assume that is what @Nedum really asks for. I want to purchase Reflected’s upcoming Kola Campaing, but will wait until the bugs have been deloused.

 

Im not sure 100% but maybe this campaign will be free as a part of the map:

The Orbx team is collaborating with experienced DCS campaign creators Baltic Dragon and Reflected Simulations to create engaging campaigns. The upcoming Arctic Thunder campaign for the Kola map, will consist of two campaigns: one for a Finnish Air Force F/A-18C and another for an USAF F-16C Viper. Both will share the same storyline and missions, so it will be possible to play them from different perspectives.

[MAXsenna]

@YoYo

This how your text looks like when not pasting as "plain test".

[TobiasA]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb El Vikingo:

A lot of information, thanks! When can we expect all these bugs to be fixed. I assume that is what @Nedum really asks for. I want to purchase Reflected’s upcoming Kola Campaing, but will wait until the bugs have been deloused.

 

Fear not, because both Orbx and Reflected simulations deliver products in a working state. And they put a lot of effort into it, with a serious love for detail and immersion. 

Pretty sure there is a bigger F-16 patch incoming, since there has been quite some activity in the bug section and even the three threads about the forgotten radar modes got merged and some TWS issues got labeled as "reported".

So the bugfixes might comes as a pair with the campaign.

Edited October 6, 2024 by TobiasA

[YoYo]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

@YoYo

This how your text looks like when not pasting as "plain test".

I know, but it's harder on the phone, and I was just pasting as I could then. 

Edited October 6, 2024 by YoYo

[MAXsenna]

I know, but it's harder on the phone, and I was just pasting as I could then. 

Ah, I see. On my phone I mostly use Tapatalk, where it does it automatically.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[AdrianL]

5 hours ago, YoYo said:

but maybe this campaign will be free as a part of the map:

The campaigns will not be part of the map and will need to be purchased

Edited October 6, 2024 by AdrianL

[YoYo]

1 hour ago, AdrianL said:

The campaigns will not be part of the map and will need to be purchased

I don't want to go off-topic here. Thanks for the info. Up until now I was under the impression that it would be part of the map, as additional content. It wasn't clearly stated, and I don't really care about Discord, to be honest.

[nessuno0505]

8 ore fa, El Vikingo ha scritto:

When can we expect all these bugs to be fixed.

Never? If you've been here for a while you'll know that this is the inherent nature of DCS: bugs, bugs, and more bugs; excuses, excuses and more excuses, because the module is still in early access. What is not in early access in DCS? The Sabre? The Mig-15? And are they bug-free? Absolutely not, but in those cases the excuse is that the developers are busy elsewhere, the bugs are not game breaking and they are already reported so sooner or later they will be fixed. One might have thought that the new upgrade cycle with a unified consumer version of the game would have changed things, but this was not the case. The bottom line is that if you want to play dcs, you either accept the bugs or change the game.

[NineLine]

11 hours ago, El Vikingo said:

A lot of information, thanks! When can we expect all these bugs to be fixed. I assume that is what @Nedum really asks for. I want to purchase Reflected’s upcoming Kola Campaing, but will wait until the bugs have been deloused.

 

A number of them are fixed internally already and should release with the next major update provided testing goes ok. 

[El Vikingo]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

A number of them are fixed internally already and should release with the next major update provided testing goes ok. 

Music to my ears! 

[MAXsenna]

I don't want to go off-topic here. Thanks for the info. Up until now I was under the impression that it would be part of the map, as additional content. It wasn't clearly stated, and I don't really care about Discord, to be honest.

My initial impression was exactly that. But it doesn't matter. It's a few beers for a high quality campaign from two of the best DCS campaign creators.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Yaga]

On 10/5/2024 at 12:30 PM, NineLine said:

Hey All, so firstly, all those listed bugs or issues have all been reported. This is a common issue in Early Access products and in fact, shows more so that it's being worked on. As new systems and features are added, it can affect older systems either unintentionally or by design in order for new things to be added. We do our best to mitigate these issues, but it's not always possible. Also, rarely do these issues make it past our Q&A team or Tester team (and are known before anyone), and just because they are marked reported on the forums does not mean we missed them, we are only acknowledging that these are reported. We do not enjoy or look at adding new issues, but it can be the downside of active development on a very complex aircraft. Most early-access aircraft see very similar problems.

Issues regularly make it past testing and into release builds. Versions get merged incorrectly. Builds are last minute. Fixable. 

 

On 10/5/2024 at 12:30 PM, NineLine said:

By the way, DCS itself may be referenced as stable or not a testing build, but as long as a module is in Early Access, it can be considered less than stable due to active development. A stable release of DCS as a whole does not include the status of any addon modules. You have been around a long time, I think you know that.

The parts that work are stable and those that don't aren't. Is this what I'm reading? 

Is the MP Scoreboard no longer functioning a EA addon module-related feature?

 

On 10/5/2024 at 12:30 PM, NineLine said:

To expand on the above "If they have never worked before, I could understand that, but that, no, that's BS." These systems are complex and intertwined, work on one thing that might touch on another system can risk an issue popping up. This is the nature of development on a complex modern fighter. We are not able to copy and paste these systems into DCS, in many cases, they are being designed from scratch with very little documentation to go on. Again, this is the nature of Early Access and active development. 

When an update makes south-bound launched missiles loft downward instead of lofting upward, that's not really a "complex modern fighter" problem, is it? 

 

On 10/5/2024 at 12:30 PM, NineLine said:

Thanks.

PS I should mention that there are no shared engineers, these systems being as complex and work-intensive to program means that a dev cannot bounce around from project to project or even system to system. So it's not a case of why this guy moved to that. Especially when you talk about art, core issues, etc. A good example is the work on the Sniper, the development on that is complex and extensive, and the dev(s) working on that will focus solely on that and that alone. It's not something you can bounce around between, as well it's not something someone who specializes in models, effects or core programming even can just jump into.

We have highly specialized individuals at ED, much like you see at 3rd Parties who have a person who does art, someone who does FMs, etc.  It goes further into Helos, Western or Eastern Systems, etc.

With a dedicated team on it, I'm sure the pod will be well researched, correctly modelled and not have any inaccuracy persist beyond a reasonable time frame. 

[Nedum]

On 10/5/2024 at 7:30 PM, NineLine said:

Hey All, so firstly, all those listed bugs or issues have all been reported. This is a common issue in Early Access products and in fact, shows more so that it's being worked on. As new systems and features are added, it can affect older systems either unintentionally or by design in order for new things to be added. We do our best to mitigate these issues, but it's not always possible. Also, rarely do these issues make it past our Q&A team or Tester team (and are known before anyone), and just because they are marked reported on the forums does not mean we missed them, we are only acknowledging that these are reported. We do not enjoy or look at adding new issues, but it can be the downside of active development on a very complex aircraft. Most early-access aircraft see very similar problems.

Next, "that the current pod is a mix of the old and the sniper pod to "test" it", This was never the case, it was not a mix of pods put in to test. It had nothing to do with testing. The Hybrid pod will be removed when the sniper is released, that is the only relation it has to that development. By the way, DCS itself may be referenced as stable or not a testing build, but as long as a module is in Early Access, it can be considered less than stable due to active development. A stable release of DCS as a whole does not include the status of any addon modules. You have been around a long time, I think you know that. 

To expand on the above "If they have never worked before, I could understand that, but that, no, that's BS." These systems are complex and intertwined, work on one thing that might touch on another system can risk an issue popping up. This is the nature of development on a complex modern fighter. We are not able to copy and paste these systems into DCS, in many cases, they are being designed from scratch with very little documentation to go on. Again, this is the nature of Early Access and active development. 

Lastly, "it seems it doesn't care ED much.", This is completely untrue, the F-16C is a flagship product in DCS, it's one of the most important modules we have released to date. It has some of the most active developments of our modules. It is still in Early Access and it is still seeing heavy development. Yes there are known issues and these are and will be addressed, but suggesting we don't care about this module is strange to me personally. Again, I must point out that everything you listed is acknowledged and reported. This is not a sign of not caring at all. 

Thanks.

PS I should mention that there are no shared engineers, these systems being as complex and work-intensive to program means that a dev cannot bounce around from project to project or even system to system. So it's not a case of why this guy moved to that. Especially when you talk about art, core issues, etc. A good example is the work on the Sniper, the development on that is complex and extensive, and the dev(s) working on that will focus solely on that and that alone. It's not something you can bounce around between, as well it's not something someone who specializes in models, effects or core programming even can just jump into.

We have highly specialized individuals at ED, much like you see at 3rd Parties who have a person who does art, someone who does FMs, etc.  It goes further into Helos, Western or Eastern Systems, etc. 

@NineLine

 

Edit: I am aware of the meaning of stable. If I am talking about stable, I mean as bug free as possible with the current systems (Stable VERsion of DCS World), and the systems are well usable.

But at the same time, ED is only implementing stable changes to the stable version, without rising the bug counter. Stable doesn't mean a module has to be out of the EA phase!

If ED is adding bugs to a module, because they changed something and want to test it, and they are thinking, because the F16 isn't out of EA, and they can "test" the new stuff and fill the F16 module with bugs within the stable version of DCS World, destroying working systems, then we have a big problem. Much bigger, as I ever thought!

Thank you for your support and your answer.

I have to say, personally, I can't see that the F16 seems to be "the" Product for ED right now. If so, why are so many issues finding their way to the F16 module of DCS World? And why does it need several months (more than 6) to fix those issues for such an important module?

There are so many bugs in this module you don't even need to find them. They are jumping you right into your face as soon you try to use the F16 like the manual shows (the small part who is correct).

And as you have said, one system is related to another on. So why is ED putting bugs into the stable version, jumping into my face during a 30 minutes test?  That's out of my mind.

It looks to me like there is no good testing anymore for this essential module. I only have to start a basic Flight from a Quick Mission and all the Bugs saying "Hello" to me. There is no searching. It's only the use of a standard flight check necessary.

Take a mix of weapons and sensors, and there they are. Bugs over bugs, since 2024!

If ED thinks, they are not game breaking, I fear ED is not aware how bad the F16 feels after such a long time in early excess. All those issues were not there at the end of 2023!

ED put issues into the stable version, all of them I can find in a 2-hour testing. Those bugs should have never found its way to the stable version. Never ever!

The stable version should behave stable, right?

But for me, the F16 is light-years away from the stable version, she was in at the end of 2023.

Again, we are not talking about systems never worked good or "stable" before, we are talking about an F16 who worked pretty well with all available systems at the end of 2023. Some small issues, but you could use all the weapon systems and sensors without big problems.

Now the basic systems, working before, are full of issues and the issues growing up. With every Patch we get more issues, not less, more!

TWS, RWS, FCR, Navi, GPS, INS, Weapons, Tracking, Datalink, all those and many more systems worked pretty well. No big issues, but then there was the beginning of 2024, and the horror starts.

This important module became a mess of "workarounds" for more than 6 months. Again, workarounds for things who worked well before the beginning of 2024.

So, I have to ask again why does ED put changes into a stable version, who are not stable one can see in a maximum of a 2-hour testing?

If I want to use the F16 at a minimum I could at the end of 2023, that is impossible. But why? Why did ED that? Why is ED making a good working module to a mess of issues, if this is the stable version for DCS World? If ED wants to test something, use the Beta. And PLEASE, test the things and if you find those obvious issues, don't put them to the stable version.

If a module and the systems were "more" stable months before, then ED has a big problem with the quality of service team.

I don't know what's the problem really is, but I have eyeballs and I can see what's not working anymore and there is nothing that seems to fix it. And one is for sure, if a module becomes more and more worse, there must be something wrong, especially in a stable version!

 

16 hours ago, NineLine said:

A number of them are fixed internally already and should release with the next major update provided testing goes ok. 

@NineLine

And here is the problem. ED can't even say when and if they can fix the main issue. And that ED really thinks there is no big problem to fill the F16 module with so many bugs, isn't a good sign in my eyes.

It's really hard to find a way to believe in ED after this year, especially if the F16 is such an important module for ED, and we have to live such a long time with this many new issues.

To be highlighting it, with this patch we've got 2 new TWS Bugs I could find in less than 5 Minutes!  How can it be possible, those 2 find its way to the stable version of DCS World?

That's exactly the reason we are running in such an endless row of issues following each other.

So, I have to ask what exactly was the "benefit" of these 2 new bugs? What other issues of what important systems were fixed, so it was necessary to put these 2 new bugs into the stable version of DCS World? I think that's an important question, because there must be reason to fill the module with bugs, one can find without a master in Game Testing within 5 minutes.

ED tells us, we have to wait such a long time for new Patches for the stable version of DCS World, because to prevent us from getting unnecessary bugs. How ED want to make that possible? I can't see that that ever happened this year. Not for the so important F16 module, that's for sure!

If those bugs were necessary for the stable version of DCS World, tell us why?

Again. Please, stop filling the F16 with issues without any benefit for the customer! If ED wants to test the module, test in with the Beta Version of this game, NOT in the stable version!

Edited October 7, 2024 by Nedum

[TobiasA]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Nedum:

@NineLine

 

Edit: I am aware of the meaning of stable. If I am talking about stable, I mean as bug free as possible with the current systems (Stable VERsion of DCS World), and the systems are well usable.

But at the same time, ED is only implementing stable changes to the stable version, without rising the bug counter. Stable doesn't mean a module has to be out of the EA phase!

If ED is adding bugs to a module, because they changed something and want to test it, and they are thinking, because the F16 isn't out of EA, and they can "test" the new stuff and fill the F16 module with bugs within the stable version of DCS World, destroying working systems, then we have a big problem. Much bigger, as I ever thought!

Thank you for your support and your answer.

I have to say, personally, I can't see that the F16 seems to be "the" Product for ED right now. If so, why are so many issues finding their way to the F16 module of DCS World? And why does it need several months (more than 6) to fix those issues for such an important module?

There are so many bugs in this module you don't even need to find them. They are jumping you right into your face as soon you try to use the F16 like the manual shows (the small part who is correct).

And as you have said, one system is related to another on. So why is ED putting bugs into the stable version, jumping into my face during a 30 minutes test?  That's out of my mind.

It looks to me like there is no good testing anymore for this essential module. I only have to start a basic Flight from a Quick Mission and all the Bugs saying "Hello" to me. There is no searching. It's only the use of a standard flight check necessary.

Take a mix of weapons and sensors, and there they are. Bugs over bugs, since 2024!

If ED thinks, they are not game breaking, I fear ED is not aware how bad the F16 feels after such a long time in early excess. All those issues were not there at the end of 2023!

ED put issues into the stable version, all of them I can find in a 2-hour testing. Those bugs should have never found its way to the stable version. Never ever!

The stable version should behave stable, right?

But for me, the F16 is light-years away from the stable version, she was in at the end of 2023.

Again, we are not talking about systems never worked good or "stable" before, we are talking about an F16 who worked pretty well with all available systems at the end of 2023. Some small issues, but you could use all the weapon systems and sensors without big problems.

Now the basic systems, working before, are full of issues and the issues growing up. With every Patch we get more issues, not less, more!

TWS, RWS, FCR, Navi, GPS, INS, Weapons, Tracking, Datalink, all those and many more systems worked pretty well. No big issues, but then there was the beginning of 2024, and the horror starts.

This important module became a mess of "workarounds" for more than 6 months. Again, workarounds for things who worked well before the beginning of 2024.

So, I have to ask again why does ED put changes into a stable version, who are not stable one can see in a maximum of a 2-hour testing?

If I want to use the F16 at a minimum I could at the end of 2023, that is impossible. But why? Why did ED that? Why is ED making a good working module to a mess of issues, if this is the stable version for DCS World? If ED wants to test something, use the Beta. And PLEASE, test the things and if you find those obvious issues, don't put them to the stable version.

If a module and the systems were "more" stable months before, then ED has a big problem with the quality of service team.

I don't know what's the problem really is, but I have eyeballs and I can see what's not working anymore and there is nothing that seems to fix it. And one is for sure, if a module becomes more and more worse, there must be something wrong, especially in a stable version!

 

@NineLine

And here is the problem. ED can't even say when and if they can fix the main issue. And that ED really thinks there is no big problem to fill the F16 module with so many bugs, isn't a good sign in my eyes.

It's really hard to find a way to believe in ED after this year, especially if the F16 is such an important module for ED, and we have to live such a long time with this many new issues.

To be highlighting it, with this patch we've got 2 new TWS Bugs I could find in less than 5 Minutes!  How can it be possible, those 2 find its way to the stable version of DCS World?

That's exactly the reason we are running in such an endless row of issues following each other.

So, I have to ask what exactly was the "benefit" of these 2 new bugs? What other issues of what important systems were fixed, so it was necessary to put these 2 new bugs into the stable version of DCS World? I think that's an important question, because there must be reason to fill the module with bugs, one can find without a master in Game Testing within 5 minutes.

ED tells us, we have to wait such a long time for new Patches for the stable version of DCS World, because to prevent us from getting unnecessary bugs. How ED want to make that possible? I can't see that that ever happened this year. Not for the so important F16 module, that's for sure!

If those bugs were necessary for the stable version of DCS World, tell us why?

Again. Please, stop filling the F16 with issues without any benefit for the customer! If ED wants to test the module, test in with the Beta Version of this game, NOT in the stable version!

 

There is no beta and stable version anymore, stable and beta became one some patches ago. So technically the stable version is the open beta, and vice versa. Which one is which is up to you.

But imho, bug fixes > new features.

[MAXsenna]

There is no beta and stable version anymore, stable and beta became one some patches ago. So technically the stable version is the open beta, and vice versa. Which one is which is up to you.
But imho, bug fixes > new features.

He might might differentiate between Release and Closed Beta. If so he has a case.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[TobiasA]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb MAXsenna:

He might might differentiate between Release and Closed Beta. If so he has a case.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Honestly I don't think that there are many people in the closed beta that at least cold-start the F-16 or take it on multiplayer events. Quite frequently we had bugs that multiple people in our squad discovered on the first ride after a patch.

But yes, you might be right there. Good point.

[BIGNEWY]

6 hours ago, Nedum said:

@NineLine

 

Edit: I am aware of the meaning of stable. If I am talking about stable, I mean as bug free as possible with the current systems (Stable VERsion of DCS World), and the systems are well usable.

But at the same time, ED is only implementing stable changes to the stable version, without rising the bug counter. Stable doesn't mean a module has to be out of the EA phase!

If ED is adding bugs to a module, because they changed something and want to test it, and they are thinking, because the F16 isn't out of EA, and they can "test" the new stuff and fill the F16 module with bugs within the stable version of DCS World, destroying working systems, then we have a big problem. Much bigger, as I ever thought!

Thank you for your support and your answer.

I have to say, personally, I can't see that the F16 seems to be "the" Product for ED right now. If so, why are so many issues finding their way to the F16 module of DCS World? And why does it need several months (more than 6) to fix those issues for such an important module?

There are so many bugs in this module you don't even need to find them. They are jumping you right into your face as soon you try to use the F16 like the manual shows (the small part who is correct).

And as you have said, one system is related to another on. So why is ED putting bugs into the stable version, jumping into my face during a 30 minutes test?  That's out of my mind.

It looks to me like there is no good testing anymore for this essential module. I only have to start a basic Flight from a Quick Mission and all the Bugs saying "Hello" to me. There is no searching. It's only the use of a standard flight check necessary.

Take a mix of weapons and sensors, and there they are. Bugs over bugs, since 2024!

If ED thinks, they are not game breaking, I fear ED is not aware how bad the F16 feels after such a long time in early excess. All those issues were not there at the end of 2023!

ED put issues into the stable version, all of them I can find in a 2-hour testing. Those bugs should have never found its way to the stable version. Never ever!

The stable version should behave stable, right?

But for me, the F16 is light-years away from the stable version, she was in at the end of 2023.

Again, we are not talking about systems never worked good or "stable" before, we are talking about an F16 who worked pretty well with all available systems at the end of 2023. Some small issues, but you could use all the weapon systems and sensors without big problems.

Now the basic systems, working before, are full of issues and the issues growing up. With every Patch we get more issues, not less, more!

TWS, RWS, FCR, Navi, GPS, INS, Weapons, Tracking, Datalink, all those and many more systems worked pretty well. No big issues, but then there was the beginning of 2024, and the horror starts.

This important module became a mess of "workarounds" for more than 6 months. Again, workarounds for things who worked well before the beginning of 2024.

So, I have to ask again why does ED put changes into a stable version, who are not stable one can see in a maximum of a 2-hour testing?

If I want to use the F16 at a minimum I could at the end of 2023, that is impossible. But why? Why did ED that? Why is ED making a good working module to a mess of issues, if this is the stable version for DCS World? If ED wants to test something, use the Beta. And PLEASE, test the things and if you find those obvious issues, don't put them to the stable version.

If a module and the systems were "more" stable months before, then ED has a big problem with the quality of service team.

I don't know what's the problem really is, but I have eyeballs and I can see what's not working anymore and there is nothing that seems to fix it. And one is for sure, if a module becomes more and more worse, there must be something wrong, especially in a stable version!

 

@NineLine

And here is the problem. ED can't even say when and if they can fix the main issue. And that ED really thinks there is no big problem to fill the F16 module with so many bugs, isn't a good sign in my eyes.

It's really hard to find a way to believe in ED after this year, especially if the F16 is such an important module for ED, and we have to live such a long time with this many new issues.

To be highlighting it, with this patch we've got 2 new TWS Bugs I could find in less than 5 Minutes!  How can it be possible, those 2 find its way to the stable version of DCS World?

That's exactly the reason we are running in such an endless row of issues following each other.

So, I have to ask what exactly was the "benefit" of these 2 new bugs? What other issues of what important systems were fixed, so it was necessary to put these 2 new bugs into the stable version of DCS World? I think that's an important question, because there must be reason to fill the module with bugs, one can find without a master in Game Testing within 5 minutes.

ED tells us, we have to wait such a long time for new Patches for the stable version of DCS World, because to prevent us from getting unnecessary bugs. How ED want to make that possible? I can't see that that ever happened this year. Not for the so important F16 module, that's for sure!

If those bugs were necessary for the stable version of DCS World, tell us why?

Again. Please, stop filling the F16 with issues without any benefit for the customer! If ED wants to test the module, test in with the Beta Version of this game, NOT in the stable version!

 

Thank you for sharing your feedback. We understand your concerns, and we want you to know that our team is working diligently on updates and improvements. When changes or fixes are ready, they will be shared through our change logs.

The development of our modules is highly complex, involving multiple aircraft, systems, and ongoing testing tasks. Occasionally, issues may not be caught during testing, or might not show up during our closed testing cycles. Our dedicated team of both volunteers and paid testers work hard to catch as many issues as possible before any public release. Sometimes, non-critical issues are identified, but we choose to release the patch while planning to address those in a future update.

Regarding recent radar issues with the F-16C and F/A-18C, these stem from a major overhaul in Phase 3 of the radar update. While we understand that these issues may feel significant, the majority of players are still able to enjoy the aircraft. We don’t commit to exact dates for fixes until we’re confident about their readiness and stability.

We believe the F-16C is an amazing aircraft within DCS, and many players are having a great time flying it. We genuinely hope you can enjoy it too.

We value your feedback, and we’ve acknowledged it in previous responses. While we always strive to meet expectations, it may not be possible in every instance. We encourage you to consider the positive developments alongside any concerns, as our team remains committed to delivering the best possible experience.

thank you 

[Xhonas]

40 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Regarding recent radar issues with the F-16C and F/A-18C, these stem from a major overhaul in Phase 3 of the radar update. While we understand that these issues may feel significant, the majority of players are still able to enjoy the aircraft. We don’t commit to exact dates for fixes until we’re confident about their readiness and stability.

We believe the F-16C is an amazing aircraft within DCS, and many players are having a great time flying it. We genuinely hope you can enjoy it too.

We value your feedback, and we’ve acknowledged it in previous responses. While we always strive to meet expectations, it may not be possible in every instance. We encourage you to consider the positive developments alongside any concerns, as our team remains committed to delivering the best possible experience.

thank you 

Hi Bignewy, thanks for recognizing the issues however what we are asking here is a stable plataform to play. I really appreciate what you guys do and most of us understand how complex it is, but these bugs can be very frustrating at times. I can't wait to have the new features of the phase 3 of the radar, but can't you guys wait to fully implement it when it is complete or at least bug free? these issues right now are severely impacting the mission effectiveness of both F-16 and F/A-18, they are serious issues, to the point that they can get you killed in sweep / cap missions. Its so frustrating that sometimes i wish that i had a fc3 radar in both my F-16/F-18 than the current model, simply because at least the fc3 radar is stable and free of bugs. I understand that it is early access and may have issues, but what is the advantage of releasing just parts of an overhaul that is not complete and still have bugs? I hope you don't get me wrong. 

Edited October 7, 2024 by Xhonas

[BIGNEWY]

13 minutes ago, Xhonas said:

Hi Bignewy, thanks for recognizing the issues however what we are asking here is a stable plataform to play. I really appreciate what you guys do and most of us understand how complex it is, but these bugs can be very frustrating at times. I can't wait to have the new features of the phase 3 of the radar, but can't you guys wait to fully implement it when it is complete or at least bug free? these issues right now are severely impacting the mission effectiveness of both F-16 and F/A-18, they are serious issues, to the point that they can get you killed in sweep / cap missions. Its so frustrating that sometimes i wish that i had a fc3 radar in both my F-16/F-18 than the current model, simply because at least the fc3 radar is stable and free of bugs. I understand that it is early access and may have issues, but what is the advantage of releasing just parts of an overhaul that is not complete and still have bugs? I hope you don't get me wrong. 

 

As mentioned in my reply we have phase 3 of the radar tweaks coming soon, this should help. 

Thank you 

[LeopardLenin]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

While we understand that these issues may feel significant, the majority of players are still able to enjoy the aircraft. 

 

We are asking you to fix bugs that constantly keep coming out without benefit. To me it sounds like your trying to justify the tons of bugs by just saying "doesnt matter, people like it", which i hope your not doing and can confirm to us that all of these bugs are trying to be fixed. Its so unstable its insane, More so than any game ive ever played or even heard about to this scale. It feels like a tester loads up the new version of the 16 and glances at the cockpit and MFDs once, then leaves the game, and tells ED no bugs were found. Thats what it feels like, not saying thats whats happening, but thats what it feels like. 

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by LeopardLenin