DCS Players Have Had Enough - A youtubers opinion

[Rudel_chw]

6 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

but because the features that were there are gradually being lost

 

Wasn't aware of that ... what features are being lost on the Sabre?

[nessuno0505]

Have you ever tried an old module wanting to go into detail? There is always some bug that pops up, even a gross one, and 90% of the time you find that it has been already reported... for at least a couple of years! This fact is driving me crazy. In the past I have also reported some bugs, or followed some bugs-related discussions, but after 2 years every hope is lost...

That's just my opinion, or maybe just my immagination, or maybe I fixate on minor insignificant things, but there are bugs even in the most unexpected modules, see the airport divert page bug in the A-10c, which is still there despite the A-10c II being released. It may be a minor bug, but it's there since DCS 2.0: around 2017-2018. It's 2024! (nearly 2025). If the developers haven't found free time to fix this in over 7 years, it means they'll never find it! And it's an "already reported" bug... since 2018! 

[Art-J]

Can't say much about the Sabre, 'cause I haven't flown it in a long time, but Mustang for example, with its half broken radiator switches (not spring loaded anymore), broken control stick lock, permanently enabled cockpit lights at cold start (which doesn't make sense on bright daylight), broken oil dilution and recently broken main wheels animation has been clearly deteriorating slowly. 3 first mentioned issues have been with us for 5-ish years at least.

Granted, one could say they're not critical because the plane can still takeoff, fly, blow sh..t up, return and land so minimal functionality in combat sim is still there allright, but the fact is module features which worked correctly in DCS 1.2-2.2 era, albeit not major ones, have been broken and effectively abandoned.

After many years I finally stopped bothering with making or bumping bug reports because I don't see the point anymore if they tend to be ignored anyway, or noticed and pushed further by NL only every few months or so. I'm talking about warbirds mostly, as they're majority of purchased modules in my virtual hangar. Maybe F-16 / F-18 /AH-64 or other "flagship" customers are more lucky.

[nessuno0505]

Just to be clear: I am aware that a piece of software 100% bug free does not exist in life. But there is a distinct feeling that something is wrong here, and @Art-J example is perfect in this regard. Maybe a few people still fly the P-51, but it is not a deprecated software and is sold in the same showcase of the Apache. If you can't keep it up to date, for whatever reason, create a separate older version of DCS to be used with the older modules. It would be better than it is now.

Edited November 14, 2024 by nessuno0505

[Rudel_chw]

4 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

If you can't keep it up to date, for whatever reason, create a separate older version of DCS to be used with the older modules. It would be better than it is now.

 

It wouldn't, DCS is already too big for many users, managing two separate version would be a big no-no for many users.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

13 hours ago, TheFreshPrince said:

You might as well talk to a wall, that would do as much. Apparently they need money, so they sell everything as it is at maximum prices. But if you are already in DCS, you know you can wait for the next sale and you know what's worth it and what not. And as they said, with the EULA they don't owe you anything. So it's entirely your problem if you're not satisfied. Luckily, DCS also offers free trial periods for most modules, so you can actually test it before buying. It's a system that is somewhat unfair to new players, but offers some fair points to those who do some research or already know the drill.

It's really feeling that way. And, as these issues mount because ED doesn't want to listen? My money will go else where. Simple as, I have no real loyalty to DCS or ED.

We really need to be encouraging new players to use free trials with gusto since it's honestly a fantastic program.
 

[Rudel_chw]

25 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

And, as these issues mount because ED doesn't want to listen? My money will go else where.

 

Else where .. only problem is that there is no where else to go ... at least I have not been able to find any better than DCS, even with its issues, and I've tried several well known sims that I can't really mention here. 

[Dangerzone]

At present my hopeful and optimistic view is that some things are getting dated because ED is focusing significant resources on major tasks at the moment (Vulkan, Multithreading, and the Dynamic Campaign Engine). Once more of these are completed, I'm hoping it means that it will free up a significant number of devs and resources and we'll see the floodgates open where these other things we desire will start to get more attention in a significant way.

However...

On 11/13/2024 at 2:54 AM, virgo47 said:

What bothers me personally most are bugs. 

   ^^^ this.  I can understand working modules (even if old) not getting updated at the moment. (I love the UH-1, and would love to see it updated). But I can use the UH-1 as it currently is. It's bugs that are introduced with updates, that aren't looked at or addressed for years that has sapped most of my enthusiasm away from DCS. I've seen our community shrink from a core group of 15 strong, (not including others who pop in from time to time) dwindle down to 3 people being semi-regular - and it's largely due to being sick of dealing with various bugs over an extended period of time. 

I'm really hoping my personal observation isn't reflective of the wider community, but seeing video's like this come out, comments on ED's youtube trailer video's, etc gives me the impression we're not alone. 

I can wait for older models to be enhanced to more modern standards if my optimistic views above reflect reality. However I have concern that the community is going to remain as strong between now and then if bugs that are introduced aren't addressed with more urgency.

I feel for everyone involved. The creators have developed an incredible simulator - beyond what I could have ever have hoped to be flying. Something to be real proud of. I can't imagine the ongoing countless hours, effort, and passion that has gone into creating what is. For this to be so undermined because somewhere in the mix, someone is deciding that bugs aren't as big of a priority as they should be and can wait years to be addressed - or not realizing the true impact they're having on a community is a real letdown not only for customers, but also for everyone else involved in the development of DCS. 

That being said - I should also note that the last 2 updates have been significant patch fixes - and this needs to be recognized. Maybe there is a shift changing within ED? I also see in the latest HIP video that we've got drag and drop coming to the Mission Editor, as well as an option for the updater for those who are limited with drive storage. Maybe ED is beginning to listen to the community a bit more? It's important to give credit where credit is due.

So, I am watching with anticipation with the next few release cycles to see how other  outstanding bugs are being addressed, and if we are seeing the beginning of a shift in ED's priorities, or whether this was more of an exception to the rule. 

 

Edited November 14, 2024 by Dangerzone

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

53 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Else where .. only problem is that there is no where else to go ... at least I have not been able to find any better than DCS, even with its issues, and I've tried several well known sims that I can't really mention here. 

You assume that this money will go back into sims. It doesn't necessarily have to. It might go into other games or even other means of entertainment and fulfillment.

My larger point is that DCS' position is a little more tenuous than we'd like to believe.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

STOP EXPANDING and START FOCUSING/FIXING, is what ED needs to do. 

[virgo47]

10 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

That being said - I should also note that the last 2 updates have been significant patch fixes - and this needs to be recognized. Maybe there is a shift changing within ED? I also see in the latest HIP video that we've got drag and drop coming to the Mission Editor, as well as an option for the updater for those who are limited with drive storage. Maybe ED is beginning to listen to the community a bit more? It's important to give credit where credit is due.

I like the latest patches exactly because of this. Even if they don't necessarily fix bugs for me, I like it because in the end we all benefit from better and more stable core.

[buceador]

On 11/13/2024 at 2:33 PM, BIGNEWY said:

We fix lots of different issues every patch, it all depends on dev time, and priorities which the project managers decide

I think this statement by @BIGNEWY encapsulates perfectly the dichotomy that exists between ED management and factions of the customer base, especially "...and priorities which the project managers decide"
The project managers' priorities often do not align with the customer base priorities  because they are driven by completely different forces, project managers priorities (I would assume) are driven by edicts from ED management whereas customer priorities are usually driven by personal desire and as Kipling said "...and never the twain shall meet"  Although in this instance the twain do, occasionally meet.

 

 

[BIGNEWY]

5 minutes ago, buceador said:

I think this statement by @BIGNEWY encapsulates perfectly the dichotomy that exists between ED management and factions of the customer base, especially "...and priorities which the project managers decide"
The project managers' priorities often do not align with the customer base priorities  because they are driven by completely different forces, project managers priorities (I would assume) are driven by edicts from ED management whereas customer priorities are usually driven by personal desire and as Kipling said "...and never the twain shall meet"  Although in this instance the twain do, occasionally meet.

 

 

Correct, the project managers are the best people to decide what work gets done and when, they have the full picture, they know their budgets, they can plan work efficiently based on what work is going on at the time with any project. 

We get that some of you here have particular bugs or things you are not happy with and I am sorry that our teams priorities wont always match what you want, but as mentioned before we do fix issues, we are working on the core of DCS and we are delivering content when it is ready.  

thank you 

[draconus]

7 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

STOP EXPANDING and START FOCUSING/FIXING, is what ED needs to do.

Great idea - you mean firing half the dev crew and lose new income in the process? Becuase it's not like they all can jump into fixing bugs and where would they take money from?

12 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

I'm hoping it means that it will free up a significant number of devs and resources...

No, they'll be given next big tasks because that's the best use of said resources.

[freehand]

I have had enough of people saying they have had enough, the op has another channel thought I recognized him,

 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Correct, the project managers are the best people to decide what work gets done and when, they have the full picture, they know their budgets, they can plan work efficiently based on what work is going on at the time with any project. 

We get that some of you here have particular bugs or things you are not happy with and I am sorry that our teams priorities wont always match what you want, but as mentioned before we do fix issues, we are working on the core of DCS and we are delivering content when it is ready.  

thank you 

It's hard to buy that they have the best picture when certain minor fixes take literal years to get published.

Sure, it's great we're getting fixes and updates, but that doesn't excuse the situation a lot of modules are in. Again, I'm abstaining from ED's piston offerings as a result of this prioritization. I feel like my interest and purchase are always going to be secondary with those.

[BIGNEWY]

17 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

It's hard to buy that they have the best picture when certain minor fixes take literal years to get published.

Sure, it's great we're getting fixes and updates, but that doesn't excuse the situation a lot of modules are in. Again, I'm abstaining from ED's piston offerings as a result of this prioritization. I feel like my interest and purchase are always going to be secondary with those.

I'm sorry you are not happy and to see you are abstaining, I do hope in the future you will reconsider. I wish you all the best. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

I'm sorry you are not happy and to see you are abstaining, I do hope in the future you will reconsider. I wish you all the best. 

Only if your project managers reconsider their outlook, honestly. Because, as it stands, the vast majority of the user base probably wants just a few core developments and actual fixes paid to their products.

[BIGNEWY]

10 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Only if your project managers reconsider their outlook, honestly. Because, as it stands, the vast majority of the user base probably wants just a few core developments and actual fixes paid to their products.

As explained, we do fix issues, and our project managers are in the best place to assign tasks to the team. It may not always align with the issues you want to see resolved first, but we do work through our bug list and our work can be seen in our change log. 

 

[metzger]

How they have the big picture and AI is still in that state ? Hard to believe for so many years ED didn't prioritize to adjust AI mig-15 or 21 parameters to fly a bit less like space ships. Or 'two, bingo fuel' or ai wingman fly over enemies and get obliterated by small arms .

Like those are discussed to dead in forums for years.. not one or two years, I am sure I will find those topics regularly discussed 8 or some even more years ago.

Hard to understand what kind of big picture they have if this wasn't prioritized years ago. AI is not like some small issue that just a few people care about.

And before someone say they are working on it, adjusting the simple flight model for some units shouldn't need 10 years work.. or tunning the 'breakaway' state of the AI wingman.

At least some workaround was added for the bingo fuel bug altho for the years this issue existed, it's hard to believe so many years of work is required for a proper fix.


Sent from my SM-G985F using Tapatalk

[Bounti30]

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

As explained, we do fix issues, and our project managers are in the best place to assign tasks to the team. It may not always align with the issues you want to see resolved first, but we do work through our bug list and our work can be seen in our change log. 

 

There are issues that have existed for months or even years ??

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

55 minutes ago, Bounti30 said:

There are issues that have existed for months or even years ??

Yeah, this isn't a question of what I want to see resolved first but rather resolved period.

Again, F-86's guns. 10. Years. To. Address. And I have seen nothing, absolutely nothing, to indicate that ED's project managers even see that as a glaring failure. If that's going to be the response? Whew! I'm guessing ED first party modules are a wait and see for me, from now on.

Frankly, the insistence that they have the best view of the bigger picture is questionable at best. More and more it seems they can't see the forest through the trees. AND, when the F-86's guns did get addressed? It was right as FC2024 was made available. Let's be real, that does not inspire confidence in consumers when the only reason something receives a minor but important fix is so that it can be repackaged and sold again.

What is galling and what we're seeing refusal to do is "Oh, well, I guess we were wrong. We need to review our priorities!" And do just that. I've been in software dev, this isn't the most difficult thing to do. We're not doing this because we want outrage clicks farmed on Youtube because something something Razbam, we want to see DCS be good. We want to part with our money with confidence, especially in these trying times. We want to be able to impulse buy from ED like we used to without then stopping ourselves and going "Oh wait, is ED even gonna support this adequately?"

Edited November 16, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Bounti30]

I have the impression that stubbornness and pride prevent certain things from succeeding.
''We're right and you guys don't understand anything''

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Bounti30 said:

I have the impression that stubbornness and pride prevent certain things from succeeding.
''We're right and you guys don't understand anything''

Absolutely spot on analysis 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, Bounti30 said:

I have the impression that stubbornness and pride prevent certain things from succeeding.
''We're right and you guys don't understand anything''

Well, we understand that other things are fun, too.

And that they may be worth our disposable income.