DCS Players Have Had Enough - A youtubers opinion

[buceador]

23 minutes ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Hey, we're getting great fog next update!

And hopefully brighter PAPI lights!

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

21 minutes ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Hey, we're getting great fog next update! Not that this will not be a great feature and make DCS look better, but the timinig is very strange. I cannot understand whoever put this as a top priority to release before christmas, especially with all the discussions.

Honestly, it looks great. There's absolutely no denying it and I cannot wait to kick up dirt with my Hind. It'll be a lot of fun. I'm probably going to sink a lot of hours into those.

But, again, we could have happily waited for that for some REAL basic fixes and such, like.. oh I don't know:

 

And one of those is for the Mossie. Where's my incentive to buy these when such glaring issues remain unaddressed? And they want us to buy the Hellcat when that drops? I'd love to, but if they aren't willing to address these issues, then I find myself waiting for sales or major improvements, whenever those happen.

They've not been forthcoming.

 

[draconus]

2 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

But, again, we could have happily waited for that for some REAL basic fixes and such, like.. oh I don't know...

Common misunderstanding. Coders of fog have nothing to do with WW2 modules avionics bugs.

It's getting tiring - they repeat that  these are just your own favorite bugs, same with the guy with his own favorite AI bugs. I've got my own list too. But big picture is what you see in patch change logs.

Just report bugs, make a wish and move on. If you like something - buy it. If not - vote with your wallet.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Common misunderstanding. Coders of fog have nothing to do with WW2 modules avionics bugs.

It's getting tiring - they repeat that  these are just your own favorite bugs, same with the guy with his own favorite AI bugs. I've got my own list too. But big picture is what you see in patch change logs.

Just report bugs, make a wish and move on. If you like something - buy it. If not - vote with your wallet.

Resources can be re-allocated else where.

And we've BEEN reporting those bugs.

For years. And, yet, we're here.

[metzger]

Common misunderstanding. Coders of fog have nothing to do with WW2 modules avionics bugs.
It's getting tiring - they repeat that  these are just your own favorite bugs, same with the guy with his own favorite AI bugs. I've got my own list too. But big picture is what you see in patch change logs.
Just report bugs, make a wish and move on. If you like something - buy it. If not - vote with your wallet.

Yea right, '2 bingo fuel' '2 ejecting' is my favorite bug, no one else ever reported it...or endless '2 contact armor xxx for xx' '2 contact armor xxx for xx' '2 contact armor xxx for xx'

Those are ED trademarks all over flight sim communities... but the guy with favorite ai bug.

Sent from my SM-G985F using Tapatalk

[Zahnatom]

22 hours ago, buceador said:

And hopefully brighter PAPI lights!

Brighter PAPI lights dont matter when the ATC doesnt turn them on because ED messed up the ATC and hasn't fixed them in, what, 6 months now?

Somehow I feel like ED is completely overwhelmed by the massive amount of issues and bugs, to a point where they dont know where to start.

though i'd be happy to be shown (not told) how my assumption is incorrect

[nessuno0505]

Il 16/11/2024 at 20:03, draconus ha scritto:

Common misunderstanding. Coders of fog have nothing to do with WW2 modules avionics bugs.

These are just your own favorite bugs.

Maybe they're someone's favourite bugs because they are still there after 10 years?

If developers are different, what does the "different developer" doing in these 10 years?

8 ore fa, Zahnatom ha scritto:

Somehow I feel like ED is completely overwhelmed by the massive amount of issues and bugs, to a point where they dont know where to start.

I believe you're not far from truth.

[Aapje]

On 11/16/2024 at 8:03 PM, draconus said:

It's getting tiring - they repeat that these are just your own favorite bugs, same with the guy with his own favorite AI bugs.

There is a way to figure out what most people want to get fixed first, by having a public database of bugs where people can vote for their 'favorite' bugs.

[Dangerzone]

On 11/17/2024 at 6:03 AM, draconus said:

Just report bugs, make a wish and move on. If you like something - buy it. If not - vote with your wallet.

That's not going to happen. 

Don't get me wrong - I agree - the first place is to do bug reports, and properly (track files where possible and appropriate, logs, etc). And some times they get a response, but when nothing is done for years, it makes sense that some people are going to get upset and voice their concerns. 

Moving on is OK for those who can move on, but some bugs for some people are harder to work around than others. Some customers will understandably feel the need to be able to do something to try and make a push for bug fixes when they feel that it's been completely ignored, that's not going to change. 

What's unfortunate is that it has now overflowed to ED's release video's, which appear to be getting a mountain of negative comments about bugs. Whether it's coincidence or not, I don't know, but the last 2 releases we've seen now have been largely bugfixes. It could be coincidence, or maybe passionate community members have found a nerve that gets attention from the people who make the decisions? If so, it's a pity it had to get to that level. 

After all, ED do one thing brilliantly - arguably almost better than everything else, and that is trailer video's on Youtube. I think it's probably part of their pride (and well deserved so - it's impressive eye candy, and makes me want to go play DCS every time I watch one), and it's a pity that such accomplishments is tainted by those comments, but I also understand people feeling the need to go there when things aren't addressed here. 

It could also be why we're seeing more content creators taking a lot of personal time to create dedicated video's to "ED users have had enough"... etc. If people feel the only way to get ED's attention is to make more noise publicly, then that's what they'll do. (No one's going to take the time to do the effort of making those video's unless they're passionate about seeing those bugs fixed).

I hate to see great trailer video's on youtube with so much negativity about the bugs, and believe here is a much better place where there can be attached logs, and more focused discussion. I have no doubts that those dev's work their butts off to create such great stuff, and it's a shame such work is tainted by those comments too. (I also have my suspicions that dev's take pride in their work and are too early redirected to the next item before they get to finish what they've been working on by management), so I'd love to see a better solution for people to voice their concerns (and be heard) and as such encourage people to voice here first, and not 'move on' with their concerns, because that moving on is probably going to be to youtube.

3 hours ago, Aapje said:

There is a way to figure out what most people want to get fixed first, by having a public database of bugs where people can vote for their 'favorite' bugs.

I think this is a great idea, but also recognize this will only work if management are actually interested. From what we've seen so far - it seems they have other priorities that don't align with many of the concerns of the community, so this would be for naught. Management needs to come onboard. 

I think we're in a dark situation where there's a fine line between getting the required attention for constructive responses, vs pooping in the bed, and causing damage to DCS. I'd personally would prefer to see this forum used more for bug discussions than is currently being used, so I'd prefer people who aren't going to 'move on' as has been encouraged here - to continue to voice their concerns here than youtube. But in the end though, it's all up to ED's project managers to change some priorities and how they interact with the community. BN and 9L do the best they can to interact with the public (which I appreciate) - and boy did I feel sorry for 9L on the youtube comments bearing the brunt. I often feel they do their jobs with one hand tied behind their backs too, and wonder how much they too sometimes share in the same frustrations as us (but can't say much).

The other thing I've noticed is it seems more lately that things are getting attention that haven't been before, and credit needs to be given where credit is due. Maybe it is time to pause a little to see where this heads. Whether it was a knee jerk reaction, a exception to norm, or whether there is a change in managements priorities and they're getting more serious about bugs.

And while I mentioned bug fixes, I'd be amiss not to note that we're also seeing other things, such as click and drag coming to the mission editor, the long awaited fog changes (and from what I'm seeing, well done as well), and Wag's latest video hinted at a DTC menu option... so maybe something is shifting in DCS internally in a positive direction and feedback is beginning to get a little more weight. If that is also a result of BN and 9L advocating on our behalfs and pushing a bit more, you've got a huge thanks from me! 

Edited November 18, 2024 by Dangerzone

[draconus]

6 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

That's not going to happen. 

Riot then? 

I may be tired of constant negativity but I learned that most of it comes from passion - users who do care about better DCS experience. Being glass-half-full person myself I kind of appreciate others doing it for me as I see very vocal people are better heard even when in minority - rather those from silent majority. I even get carried away sometimes and get harsh ex. when any combat mission gets destroyed by seeing black squares on every target.

Otoh I read and get how ED works. Users asked for focusing on more bug fixing, public bug trackers or bug polls for years but it's clearly not what ED or even other 3rd parties gonna do. So when I say to "move on" I just mean to accept how things work here even when I don't like it. I find that all was already said and better to vote with your wallet than waste time on endless forum discussions.

Btw, I checked last 5 "DCS 202x and beyond" videos and they all seem to catch almost 100% positive comments, growing views numbers and keeping similiar likes/views rate.

6 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

...ED do one thing brilliantly - arguably almost better than everything else, and that is trailer video's on Youtube. I think it's probably part of their pride (and well deserved so - it's impressive eye candy, and makes me want to go play DCS every time I watch one)...

I give'em that - they really are fun, beautiful and engaging but they fail when advertising maps. It'd stricken me when watching some recent Afghanistan map ED short. Maybe 10% was actually showing new map visuals while the rest of the time was filled with aircraft, clouds and shadows play - you probably wouldn't even notice if most of it was taken on Nevada.

10 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

If developers are different, what does the "different developer" doing in these 10 years?

They did what they thought was more important:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/changelog/

Edited November 18, 2024 by draconus

[Aapje]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

Btw, I checked last 5 "DCS 202x and beyond" videos and they all seem to catch almost 100% positive comments, growing views numbers and keeping similiar likes/views rate.

The last "DCS 202x and beyond" video is almost a year old, before the Razbam conflict and before the Kola/Afghanistan/Iraq map releases that also seem to have been poorly received.

If I look at the most recent video, on the Iraq map, then there are a huge number of negative comments, and those get a huge number of upvotes as well. Of course, with these things you often see that a certain sentiment becomes dominant, and people don't dare to go against it, but that goes both ways.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

9 hours ago, draconus said:

They did what they thought was more important:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/changelog/

That's the contention; what they think is most important. They will let bugs languish in the code for over a decade before addressing them. They'll allow modules to grow out of date, not address known issues within them, and still want $50 for that.

We do see core updates, that's great. More of that. But it's really not that much to ask that they address bugs confirmed from when Millennials were *still* in school. Especially ones that objectively harm the simulation's quality.

Be flippant all you like and reply with "so riot" etc. but this isn't BOO ED SUX, this is as if Fred Fleet actually HAD binoculars in the crow's nest the night that RMS Titanic struck an iceberg, saw said iceberg, and told Captain Smith about it only to have Captain Smith reply "lmao we'll do something about it trust me bro" before promptly striking the iceberg just as they had before.

These are consumers trying to tell ED to course correct before it actually does manifest poorly.

[waterman]

1 hour ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Be flippant all you like and reply with "so riot" etc. but this isn't BOO ED SUX, this is as if Fred Fleet actually HAD binoculars in the crow's nest the night that RMS Titanic struck an iceberg, saw said iceberg, and told Captain Smith about it only to have Captain Smith reply "lmao we'll do something about it trust me bro" before promptly striking the iceberg just as they had before.

Yes that is sound advice -  the "so riot " comments from the user who loves to stir up anger is not helping the situation !

Edited November 18, 2024 by waterman

[freehand]

So what is wrong with the f86 guns ? 

[Dangerzone]

14 hours ago, draconus said:

Riot then? 

In some virtual way - I think that's what's happening (aka referred youtube videos in this thread, and comments on ED's youtube video)

14 hours ago, draconus said:

Btw, I checked last 5 "DCS 202x and beyond" videos and they all seem to catch almost 100% positive comments, growing views numbers and keeping similiar likes/views rate.

Indeed, and I want DCS's 2025 and beyond to have the same result. But take a look at the more recent Iraq's trailer comments. It shows how much has changed in the past year with public attitude. It's disappointing that unaddressed bugs are having such an impact, because we've seen a lot of cool new and long awaited stuff introduced this year as well that has been overshadowed by lack of attention with bugs. 

I hope things change and there's a change in the communities experience and perception before the 2025 video is released. It wouldn't surprise me if the 2025 video is the latest out of all to be released (compared to timing in previous years) just to try and distance between the more recent attitude of the community and hopefully a better one by then. (Hopefully though will also depend on how much changes for the positive in the next month or so).

I'm crossing my fingers that with the next release we'll see just as many bug fixes as the previous 2, in addition to the new fog and plane directors - which may show ED's willingness to listen to the community and their needs more than they have in the past. I was impressed to see that they listened when it came to people's problems with downloading updates and free space size, so there could be a shift in willingness to listen more. 

 

14 hours ago, draconus said:

I may be tired of constant negativity but I learned that most of it comes from passion - users who do care about better DCS experience. Being glass-half-full person myself I kind of appreciate others doing it for me as I see very vocal people are better heard even when in minority - rather those from silent majority. I even get carried away sometimes and get harsh ex. when any combat mission gets destroyed by seeing black squares on every target.

Indeed. While some comes from entitlement, I think the majority comes from passion. But I get getting tired too. I wish their was a feature on this forum "Ignore thread" like we have to ignore users... Some threads I contribute in, I probably wouldn't be at all if the ignore feature was there. Just when they show up in my unread feed, I get involved again. 

 

14 hours ago, draconus said:

Otoh I read and get how ED works. Users asked for focusing on more bug fixing, public bug trackers or bug polls for years but it's clearly not what ED or even other 3rd parties gonna do. So when I say to "move on" I just mean to accept how things work here even when I don't like it. I find that all was already said and better to vote with your wallet than waste time on endless forum discussions.

Sorry - I misunderstood what you were meaning. I agree that we need to lower our expectations of DCS in order to not be discouraged, or to be burned further. I've cut back significantly on developing, and I've already made the decision not to purchase ED maps anymore until I see existing bugs addressed. This has nothing to do with sending ED a message with my wallet, just moreso, after seeing the pride go into 3rd party maps - especially Syria and Sinai - there's a huge contrast, and I want what Syria and Sinai have: Quick fixing of bugs, and pride in the work. 

This is the biggest flaw in DCS (even more than features not being completed for a long time). How can you trust building on a platform that when they make bugs and break things that work working, they don't seem to care - and if your development relies on it you don't know if those bugs will be fixed for years, if ever? 

Edited November 19, 2024 by Dangerzone

[Harlikwin]

On 11/12/2024 at 7:04 AM, Aapje said:

@sirrah

The F-86F is still being sold for $50 today and on the shop page there is absolutely no indication that you are buying something that is built to poorer standards and is not getting updates.

So how would a random consumer who looks at the store know that some modules are built to lower standards? And it may also be off putting to consumers of new (early access) modules to see that some significant bugs never get fixed in those older modules, which raises questions about what state newer modules will be left in.

Isn't the entire marketing claim by ED that DCS World is not a game that has a limited shelf life, but a modular platform that will keep getting more and more modules and updates?

Anyway, I argued before that I think that DCS is painting themselves into a corner by adopting this strategy of adding more and more things, while it seems impossible for them to maintain it all. And I also think that all the weight of having to keep the existing modules working and somewhat up to date, will slow down development on the game engine greatly.

It's the job of ED to manage expectations. Otherwise they create their own critics.

Exactly this... If the expectation is that a module has 3 year lifespan or whatever for 70 bucks... Well good luck with that business model. If ED wants to keep selling the existing modules, they are from time to time gonna have to update them both in terms of 3d models but MORE importantly "systems"... The F5 radar needs a total redo simple as... I don't mind ED monetizing those redos for 10-15 bucks or whatnot however. 

5 hours ago, freehand said:

So what is wrong with the f86 guns ? 

As I recall, the F86 weight is wrong due to ammo being either not counted or overcounted or something like that. Plus IIRC the velocity of the guns was wrong perhaps. The gunsight might have had issues at one point. 

[Harlikwin]

11 hours ago, Aapje said:

The last "DCS 202x and beyond" video is almost a year old, before the Razbam conflict and before the Kola/Afghanistan/Iraq map releases that also seem to have been poorly received.

If I look at the most recent video, on the Iraq map, then there are a huge number of negative comments, and those get a huge number of upvotes as well. Of course, with these things you often see that a certain sentiment becomes dominant, and people don't dare to go against it, but that goes both ways.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I used to support ED fairly blindly since I thought things would get better/fixed in the eco system, but really at some point I realized whatever is added or "fixed" is Band-Aid level for the most part, and "new" stuff is often half implemented and then abandoned for the next half-done fix. So at this point, I basically out, not buying new modules. 

Weather and clouds is the perfect example of this. IDK how many years ago we got the new clouds, but well, it was a graphical upgrade, thats it. There was no weather system, just templates. Which ok, workable near term but its never been updated.

Last week we got the news that they added fog, and ZOMG fog might block sensors as it should. But then it became pretty clear that while fog "might" block stuff, Clouds are still transparent to IR missiles and the AI at least for now. 

Having been around for a loong time, I don't expect that in the next 3 months clouds will block sensors either. We will likely have to wait years more for this most basic feature that every other sim has managed to get right from the start.

 

 

[_Hoss]

Stop buying things at full price that are 75% complete at best, and expect them to actually finish it. You wouldn't buy anything else like that so why do you settle for it here. But ED/DCS will roll out the next flashy and shiney trinket and you'll jump all over it, forgetting about how the last flashy, shiney trinket is still an unfinished and broken piece of crap. As the old saying goes, a fool and his money are soon seperated. 

We can bitch and moan all we want, but like a myopic jackass, locked onto that next carrot/module on a stick dangling out there. We just follow along fat, dumb and happy. 

JMTCW......... 

 

[metzger]

The negativity comes because no matter how much and cool new stuff the release, the bugs and the unfinished stuff prevents people from enjoing it.
What's the point of having the cool stuff then ?

Just to give a few examples:

- Many missions were broken due to the LIVE LESS THAN % trigger not working. You hop in, spent 1 hour to prepare and fly a mission to end up in frustration as mission cannot finish. Fortunately that was fixed in the last update, but was broken for almost a full year prevented me playing a few of my favorite community missions.

- F-16 weasels campaign is now broken due to h4 bug.

- Missions constantly ebd up miserable due to AI misbehaving..

So you fancy the new cool thing for a few hours, then hop in to do a mission, and it ends up in frustration instead of fun..

Let's see how AI will handle the new fog now, or we will have to choose when making missions - AI or Fog.

Sent from my SM-G985F using Tapatalk

[BIGNEWY]

13 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

That's the contention; what they think is most important. They will let bugs languish in the code for over a decade before addressing them. They'll allow modules to grow out of date, not address known issues within them, and still want $50 for that.

We do see core updates, that's great. More of that. But it's really not that much to ask that they address bugs confirmed from when Millennials were *still* in school. Especially ones that objectively harm the simulation's quality.

Be flippant all you like and reply with "so riot" etc. but this isn't BOO ED SUX, this is as if Fred Fleet actually HAD binoculars in the crow's nest the night that RMS Titanic struck an iceberg, saw said iceberg, and told Captain Smith about it only to have Captain Smith reply "lmao we'll do something about it trust me bro" before promptly striking the iceberg just as they had before.

These are consumers trying to tell ED to course correct before it actually does manifest poorly.

You keep repeating the same rhetoric but choose to ignore that we are fixing bugs with every patch we have. 

You have given plenty of feedback here already, and I have replied many times, we are not ignoring you or anyone else, repeating your point of view over and over isnt going to suddenly make things ok for you. 

Please make sure you have read our 1.10 rule. 

1.10 Product feedback and constructive criticism is encouraged when provided in a mature and courteous manner. However, feedback that is abusive, insulting or condescending is not welcome. Additionally, to bring up a particular issue repeatedly after it has already been acknowledged will be considered "trolling" - in such cases a warning will be issued to the author and the post will be removed.

thank you 

[draconus]

19 hours ago, Aapje said:

f I look at the most recent video, on the Iraq map, then there are a huge number of negative comments, and those get a huge number of upvotes as well. Of course, with these things you often see that a certain sentiment becomes dominant, and people don't dare to go against it, but that goes both ways.

What about recent SC deck crew and fog video? All positive, no complaints.

Is it because they don't try to sell a new product? Still pretty good ad if you ask me.

Or that it's for free? Fog is free, SC deck not really - just update to the paid DLC.

[Beirut]

8 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Weather and clouds is the perfect example of this. IDK how many years ago we got the new clouds, but well, it was a graphical upgrade, thats it.

 

Not trying to be (too) argumentative, but I thought the clouds were a massive! improvement. Those old cotton balls did little to make you feel like you were flying. The new clouds were astonishingly better, giving a much much better feeling of flight and ability to enjoy the sim beyond the technical/functional aspects.

 

Excellent eye candy has a lot to do with the sim. It complements the technical fidelity of the planes. We don't want just technical fidelity with a sim that looks like it's 20 years old, nor do we want a bubble game for the brain sim where an FC3 plane is the height of its technical prowess.

 

A good sim, certainly in 2024, shouldn't be just an intellectual exercise like playing chess. It has to have good eye candy, It has to look cool and immersive. ED had done a good job with the balance I think. And I'm all in for the new fog.

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

What about recent SC deck crew and fog video? All positive, no complaints.

Is it because they don't try to sell a new product? Still pretty good ad if you ask me.

Or that it's for free? Fog is free, SC deck not really - just update to the paid DLC.

Like I said in the second part of the paragraph you quoted, both the negativity and positivity is probably exaggerated, with the reality being in between. But the level of negativity is a lot higher than I see for a lot of other software. I see it as a sign of significant unrest.

As for the fog update, my opinion is that DCS needs both visuals and things to do in the game, and it is more lacking with the latter than the former. But of course that doesn't mean that a fog/cloud update is bad.

[BIGNEWY]

16 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Like I said in the second part of the paragraph you quoted, both the negativity and positivity is probably exaggerated, with the reality being in between. But the level of negativity is a lot higher than I see for a lot of other software. I see it as a sign of significant unrest.

 

I don't agree, the negativity is not higher than other communities, far from it. DCS community is one of the most welcoming communities I have been in. 

If you want to find negativity in any community you will find it, if you hang around in those circles you can easily find people to be negative with. Some people are constantly negative, no matter what good things come, its just their way. Personally I don't find those types of people good to be around.  

While it is important to listen to the negative people they shouldn't be the only source for feedback ( even if those people are repeating it often ), we get lots of good feedback and people telling us how much they enjoy DCS, they are not lying, they just have a different outlook to you. 

Thank you 

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

As for the fog update, my opinion is that DCS needs both visuals and things to do in the game, and it is more lacking with the latter than the former.

I always find it curious. Is it lack of imagination or just lost interest in flying? Because there are SP missions, MP servers (including user made dynamic campaigns), squads, user made missions, DLC campaigns, training missions and - finally - you can create your own scenario or train any procedure to perfection. If that is "lacking things to do" nothing will help.