F-5E-3 Remaster Skins

[NineLine]

Guys, you need to settle down a little, I have asked about a solution to the model editor issue, but we need to protect our models, blame those who like to steal them. But I have asked for a solution that will work here.

We have asked for the description.lua example and helmet and pilot textures. But please, let's not blow this out of proportion give us time to look into it, piling on will not help here. 

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

Thanks for the reply 9. Its good to know that y'all are working on some kind of solution. I do understand about the need to protect your property. Personally, I don't feel that we were overreacting due to having little to no information from ED about this issue and I hope that you understand our concerns. Please do what you can to regularly keep us informed about possible solutions, even if it's "we're still working on it guys, no news yet".

[Wyvern]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

but we need to protect our models, blame those who like to steal them.

There has to be another way tho.
I mean, it wouldnt seem unrealistic to sue people who do it.

Just giving us textures and a lua file will not cut it for livery making.

My suggestion would be:
Include the ModelViewer as a function into the game.
This would be a perfect use for the Encyclopedia tab.

However, that would pose the question of how you can add in the functions we have in MV.
Let me show you which tabs I have open when working on something, and give a general overview of the modelviewer and its important functions:
Just to explain why we make such a big deal out if it.

(this ended up being a bit longer than I thought)
i added some color help to make it easier to understand:

LiveriesToolPlugin
With this tool we select the liveries we are working on.
It gives us a list of all liveries, for all units in the game that have liveries in the first place.

CONNECTOR_TOOL_PLUGIN
With this tool we cal select the connectors on the aircraft, which is how we usally put on Fuel Tanks, to see how they look on the plane.

Scene Window
Here we can select the object we are viewing. If you add an Object with the Connector Tool (lets say a Fuel Tank), we can go to the Scene Tab and select it. After this, we can click on the livery in the Livery tool to change the texture we are viewing.

This is where the abilities on the Mission Editor ends.

Argument Viewer
With this tool we can see all the arguments (aka animations and Blendshapes)
We use this to extend the gear, open the canopy, move the ailerons and flaps, so we can texture in more detail.
Without it, we would have to load into a mission, and then fly and maneuver in certain ways, just to see the flaps fully extended.
On some planes (like the flanker for example) The arguments also change the visual shape of the pylon.
While on other planes (like the F-16) it controls where or how the Bortnumbers look, aswell as the number they display.
Overall, this is one of the most important tools we have, as it saves an excessive amount of time.

Texture Viewer
Here we can see (most) textures that are being loaded.
We can use it to navigate to the folder that has the texture in it, we can view the UV layout, and we can view the texture in detail.
Here it shows both the Default, but also the modified textures the livery has loaded.
This tool is EXTREMELY useful, as not all textures are located where you would expect them to be (F-16 Fuel tanks are a great example with them being in Bazar, and not in the F-16 Core Mods folder)

Reload Textures
As you might guess, this button reloads the textures.
If you would use the game to look at your changes, you would have to re-launch the game each time you make a change.
Obviously, having this button is 500x times faster, which obviously is going to be better than waiting 5 minutes to start the game and load into a mission, just to see that you need to move the camo by a few pixels to make it align across different textures.


Environment/Lighting
This here lets us view the loaded object in different Lighting conditions. From Dusk, night, cloudy, desert, or Woodland, its a good thing to have, as this way we can get a reference how the skin will look with certain weather options and maps.

Generate Lua File
This button lets us generate a Lua file, that has all the texture-names and lines for the Description.lua on the aircraft/object we are viewing.

Other Notable Tools: 
FOV tool: Lets us zoom into the aircraft to view areas with more focus

Free Camera movement: We can rotate and move the model to get better lighting angles and such, which is very important and irreplacable for making camos, especially when they have smooth, gradients as edges.

F1-F12 keys:
They let us view the textures in different overlays, those being the following:
F1 Regular Lighting 
F2 Wireframe
F3 Base Color (with no lighting, just shows the diffuse textures how they are with no reflections)
F4 Normal map (shows the normal maps in a special color view, that helps to see the effect of the normals)
F5 Roughness (shows the Green Color Channel of the RoughMets in greyscale, this controls how Rough (matte) or smooth (shiny) the surface is)
F6 Metallic (shows the Blue Color Channel fo the RoughMets in greyscale, this controls wether a surface is Metal or not)
F7 Emissive (shows areas that emit light (Formation lights, F-15E Afterburner Cans, etc)
F8 Material Errors (honestly, i still have no actual understanding what this does specifically)
F9 Ambient Occlusion (shows the Red Color Channel of the RoughMets in greyscale, this shows where a surface has a shadow (in simple terms))
F10 Cavity Maps (shows the Alpha/transparency Channel of the RoughMets in greyscale, this adds some extra shade for seams and screws)
F11 Combined View (shows all the previous views, has been broken for a few years now)
F12 Cockpit Global Illumination (not sure if im correct, but it shows how and where exactly shadows are being applied on the model
Shift+F11 Diffuse Light (technically shows how much light is being applied on each area of the model, can be used to see the normal maps better than F4 view)

This is a basic overview of the tools we have in Model Viewer, and as you see, most tools we NEED to make skins, are only avialable in the ModelViewer
Sorry for the giant message, but i feel like ED/the community mods dont fully realize the importance of the tool, and why we need what we are asking for.

I hope this helps with understanding, have a nice day!

Edited January 22 by Wyvern

[Awacs_bandog]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Guys, you need to settle down a little, I have asked about a solution to the model editor issue, but we need to protect our models, blame those who like to steal them. But I have asked for a solution that will work here.

We have asked for the description.lua example and helmet and pilot textures. But please, let's not blow this out of proportion give us time to look into it, piling on will not help here. 

Except instead of punishing those at fault, you're punishing those of us who do work.

I get obviously you personally are just the messenger, and understand these aren't aimed at you, but maybe convey to the powers at be what they're doing does have a negative impact on the mod community that, according to Wag's last video, you value greatly.

We're getting two different messages here.

[Reflected]

4 hours ago, Mach3DS said:

No, I very much am NOT willing to do that. 

And once you try, you'll realize that it's not really practical to use for a substitute tool.  That's not even the biggest issue.  The issue is load times.  It takes me like 3-5 mins to load the sim each time.  Vs a single button press to reload a texture - 1 second..  at minimum that's 180 to 300x longer.  Just to see a change.  It's not worth the time.  I click that button at least 45x times a session while doing alignments or adjusting Roughmets or normals.  I don't think people understand what that actually means.  I spend up to 60 real hours on a high quality livery with custom everything, before it's complete.  Just clicking the button replacing it with opening the full sim --  If I did that 45x in a session that's 180 seconds x 45.  8100 seconds or 2.25 hours of straight waiting.  No thanks.   I have better things I could be doing with my life.   That's why this is such a big deal.  Now realistically I prob click that button way more than that.  But If I cut it down to like even 30x in a session.  That's way too much waiting; and it makes it impractical for me to paint with such slow progress.  

 

  

i’m 100% with you. Only if you ever made a skin can you really appreciate the effect of not having a model viewer. Making a skin is like completing a 1000 piece puzzle. Without the MV it’s like a 1000 piece puzzle with all pieces painted black. Is it possible to complete it? Sure. Am I going to do it? No way. 
 

look at this skin. Those camo lines are split by the UV map in over a hunderd places and alignment is done by trial and error, resaving the skin and refreshing the editor. Even seeing the immediate effect it’s beyond tedious. 
 

and we can’t call using the game itself the ‘old school way’ either. Old school skins were made of a single texture file that kept most parts together. Times have changed, we have 4-5 files with every panel scattered all over creation. 
 

I understand the need to protect 3d models but I definitely value my free time more than creating skins under such conditions. It’s a real pity.

 

[NineLine]

5 minutes ago, Reflected said:

Only if you ever made a skin can you really appreciate the effect of not having a model viewer.

With all due respect, I have made plenty of liveries, even doing it back when all I knew or was able to do was inside the game itself. So as I told you elsewhere, we are looking into it. Thanks. 

[NineLine]

This issue is reported, when we have more news we will share. Thanks. 

[NineLine]

Here is what I have so far:

 

Quote

Hi. Answers to questions:
1) We will soon prepare the instructions for writing an antenna kit. But it is not final (antenna kits) yet. We plan to make another set within a month.
2)The pilot is still in the works. Conditionally there will be two different pilot geometries: USAF and Swiss pilot. Helmets are already finalized. There will be three different geometries for the helmets. The helmet coloring template and instructions will also be prepared.
We plan to finish work on the pilot in February. A new ejector seat is also in the works.

As for the viewer, we are discussing some solutions right now. I will share when I have something firm on this. Thanks!

[PSV_Tango]

Thank you Nineline! Really appreciate !

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

Thanks 9! Would you please ask the team to work out something regarding being able to alter roughmets? It's essential especially regarding rendering of bare metal.

[SkateZilla]

Trust me, I'm aware of the limitations of not being able to use modelviewer for liveries.
I've prolly made more liveries than I can count, and unofficial templates for a while, I think in the last 5 years, I've launched modelviewer more than DCS itself.



 

Edited January 23 by SkateZilla

[Stackup]

One thing I will note to the people saying they have to restart DCS entirely every time they make a change, I have found that it is only necessary to restart DCS when you make a change to the description.lua file as it is only read once on first use while DCS is running.  Texture, roughmet, normal, etc. changes will usually update after a mission using the livery is loaded and then returned to the ME.  This is way shorter than a full restart although still not ideal in any way, but when you're someone like me who couldn't ever figure out the model viewer in the first place you do what you can.  Painting the newer assets like the B-52 and S-3 was painful, but not any harder than any other plane was for me to do.  Of course, people have figured out the majority of the description.lua for both of those planes while there isn't any way to get the F-5's currently so we can't even do that.

[thepod]

I hope that  the engineers in ED sort this - its not insurmountable. But if its not addressed and the encryption of 3D models is extended to older models, not just newer ones, then missions and campaigns will become extinct. The majority of players/users have a keen and obsessive interest in a theatre, airframe or Squadron etc. They will not accept a campaign set in say, Bosnia that has to feature 1986 skins. If modules are encrypted, campaings will just wither and die while the included ED missions and campaigns are...lacking. The community and 3rd parties add so much more to the base package than ED provide. Wags and Nick ackowledge as much. Or they are dishonest? It cant be both. These skins were made for the benefit of the DCS community, for the love of the environment. Each one required countless hours of work. Literllyy hundreds of restarts and refreshes within MV2. They are without a doubt, impossible without access to a MV application. The JASDF Camo i think includes thousands of seperately applied 40x40 pixel squares. If ED decide that they would rather protect 3D models that they know are easily ripped but at the sacrifice of a rich and flourishing extended DCS library of playable resources, that is their prerogative but will severly diminish the depth and breadth of the envonment for no measurable benefit and skins liek these and hundreds of others will become impossible unless ED want to spend thousands of hours on a task that has no financial gain          

Edited January 24 by thepod

[Mach3DS]

Thanks 9L!  What a pleasant surprise.  Can I ask that you make an additional request.  It was already mentioned but Roughmets AND Normals.  For normals all we need is the .dds files.  We can create addional geometry and apply it on top.  This is also essential for high end Livery/Texture work.  And for the one off requests that so many people make that lie outside of the standard military schemes.

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

3 hours ago, Mach3DS said:

AND Normals

Yes, emphatically!

[Magic Zach]

+1 for normals

[Night Owl]

I also have to agree with the absolute need for a module viewer to make liveries. 

Making liveries without a model viewer may work for the kind of simple standard liveries composed of simple colour shapes, but not at all for higher quality, more work-intensive liveries. 

I'd also add that given the rather poor quality or diversity of many of the default liveries, the work of community skinners is paramount to the DCS experience.  

[denissoliveira]

Wouldn't it be easier to create a model of the remaster just for painting? I would leave the model simple, with few polygons. Only what is necessary to do the paintings.

[Night Owl]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb denissoliveira:

Wouldn't it be easier to create a model of the remaster just for painting? I would leave the model simple, with few polygons. Only what is necessary to do the paintings.

The thing is you really need a 1 to 1 model for livery making, down to the position of each rivet. 

I don't see another option than to make the model viewer work with the encrypted edm files. 

Or simply keep things like they were for 15 years, working fine without encrypted models.

Edited January 28 by Night Owl

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

Would it be possible to have a "Beta Skinners" group sort of like the Beta Testers who would sign an NDA as part of the membership requirements and who would then have access to the encrypted files? Yeah, it would be somewhat elitist and would probably piss off a lot of people. Just spitballing ideas. I'm really worried about the future for the DCS skinning community.

[waterman]

Maybe the new skinning method for the new encyrpted files will be -

1 - Have regular skinning competitions that any user can enter.

2 - Users submit their simple desired pictures and sketches of new DCS skin designs.

3 - DCS Select the designs they like and give a prize to the winners and then produce the encrypted skins using DCS employees who already have an NDA.

4 - Packs sold as addon skin packs to cover costs.

 

Edited January 30 by waterman

[Night Owl]

vor einer Stunde schrieb II.JG1_Vonrd:

I'm really worried about the future for the DCS skinning community

I don't think you need to be too worried for the longer term future. 

From a programming point of view it would be very easy to make a model viewer that reads encrypted files. I am quite confident they will make one 

[Megalax]

6 hours ago, waterman said:

 

3 - DCS Select the designs they like and give a prize to the winners and then produce the encrypted skins using DCS employees who already have an NDA.

 

 

 

That would be a severe limitation to creation of content, and its not a solution I'm willing to be a part of.

Up until recently, skinners such as myself have had the freedom to change anything and apply the details that they saw fit to add to their textures. You see to most livery makers, its not just about slapping on some camo and some roundels and then calling it good, its about adding or fixing details that even the devs either got wrong or wouldn't necessarily think of adding. Again, this severely limits the creativity potential of livery makers.

Devs are currently way too busy on their own projects anyway to be making and maintaining a list of liveries that users submit and want. The fact they are busy is also the reason why they periodically reach out to the community of livery makers to help them, or why they run livery competitions in the first place.

All I would like is that some form of transparent discussion between livery makers and the dev team be open so we can come to a consensus on what either side needs to do what they do without hindering the other.

 

Edited January 30 by Megalax

[Wyvern]

7 hours ago, waterman said:

Maybe the new skinning method for the new encyrpted files will be -

1 - Have regular skinning competitions that any user can enter.

2 - Users submit their simple desired pictures and sketches of new DCS skin designs.

3 - DCS Select the designs they like and give a prize to the winners and then produce the encrypted skins using DCS employees who already have an NDA.

4 - Packs sold as addon skin packs to cover costs.

 

no

just no

[VZ_342]

Ok, so now we have a template, but apparently cannot use the MV. If I were to use the templates, where would I save them if I wanted to view or use them?