Jump to content

Flight Dynamic Engine


Recommended Posts

Hi

 

My name is Ron. I am 54 and have been flying simulators and other craft for many years. Including high end R/C Helicoptors and Sport 3D Airplanes as a lifelong hobby!

 

When I first seen the add for DCS Blackshark I was Literally estatic! It has been so long since I have seen a really good Helicoptor Sim since Jane's LongBow! Which I might add was the best out there!

 

Now I don't want to start off with everyone thinking that I want too put down DCS I do not! But I just can not help but to ask other simmers opinions on the flight dynamics engine of DCS when played in Sim Mode! For that is the only true mode to play in for true dynamics

 

I for one know, for reasons I will not get into here for I know most will think I am full of it and making things up. But I can tell you this! the flight dynamics in DCS when played in Sim Mode are ALL WRONG!

 

There is no way that this helicoptor repsonds to the outside weather, wind or any other forces in this manner, things are way off! The control input is way too soft and spongy. The reaction time too input is way off! If real helicoptors handled in the way that this dynamic engine depicts it to be!

No smart, life loving pilot would fly them!

 

For one example ie: When a helicoptor is in forward flight, there is no way that the wind resistance forces on the tail section would allow side slipping or sideward flight in Any Form! The truth is, that in forward flight of more than around 40 mph. The rudder control has literally no effect or almost nill.

And gets even less as your speed increases!

 

Pilots that would have to fly this helicoptor with the type of control input that this helicoptor exhibits would! Land It! And Never Fly It Again! There responce would be that it is a death trap that needs to go back to the drawing board!

 

All anyone has to do is ask themselves, if this is a true and accurate flight engine? would any pilot be able to make manuvers like anyone has witnessed countless times on real tv and in hundreds of movies! You all know that any good pilot with reasonable training can make helicoptors Snap into amazing manuvers with hard, fast and responsive control without being on the edge of death!

 

Now to back up my opinion in the near future! I will provide real video footage links if I am aloud too, of an R/C controlled Coaxial helicoptor such as the KA-50 used in Blackshark just to back up my statements here. Coaxial helicoptors are one of the most stable flight and hovering aircrafts ever designed.

 

Now I know that this thread will raise some hell for some, but I hope that we can be honest in this for I do love the whole concept of DCS! I just want to enjoy more of the game than to spend all my time fighting the aircraft dynamics which I know are ALL WRONG!

 

Now! with my opinion given! I would Like to ask anyone elses opinion on this matter. And second, I would like to know if there is anyway now or will there be in the future, through maybe some sort of SDK. To be able to change the flight dynamics engine to something more real?

 

Sincerely: Ron F. aka: Oldflyer2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 211
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

With your opinion given ...

 

1. This simulation was made with input and testing from REAL Ka-50 military pilots to be as authentic as possible.

2. All the REAL pilots we have on these boards have commented on the flight dynamics being very realistic.

3. Have you considered altering your control curves? Might give you a snappier response.

4. Do you know that this thing flies with autopilot on most of the time? It actually causes very sluggish stick response when on.

5. You really do have to trim this thing.

6. RC != Real Heli

7. A real, life loving helicopter pilots would get instruction AND read the manual before flying the thing! :D

 

;)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

There is no way that this helicoptor repsonds to the outside weather, wind or any other forces in this manner, things are way off! The control input is way too soft and spongy. The reaction time too input is way off! If real helicoptors handled in the way that this dynamic engine depicts it to be!

No smart, life loving pilot would fly them!

Several of the AP modes are dampeners. They deliberately 'sponge' the input to help avoid over corrections from the human reaction to overreact.

 

 

For one example ie: When a helicoptor is in forward flight, there is no way that the wind resistance forces on the tail section would allow side slipping or sideward flight in Any Form! The truth is, that in forward flight of more than around 40 mph. The rudder control has literally no effect or almost nill.

And gets even less as your speed increases!

I think maybe you are confusing what control surfaces affect what. Rudder doesnt cause sideslipping. It creates yaw around an axis. The fact the rudder sits at the very end of the tail results in a long moment arm (the tail length) between that surface and the COG. You may be thinking that the sideslip is the result of this reference a crosswind force, but keep in mind that what you are doing is that you are yawing the nose of the chopper into the crosswind such that your bearing is not the same as your flown track. If one was to view this from the ground you would certainly see the chopper crabbing or sideslipping relative to its nose heading but that is the effect of the wind vector versus the chopper heading to create your intended tracking. And this concept is more relevent to fixed wing aircraft anyway. In this chopper, to correct for xwind you really only need to adjust the cyclic so it is angled forward and slightly into the wind direction.

 

Now! with my opinion given! I would Like to ask anyone elses opinion on this matter. And second, I would like to know if there is anyway now or will there be in the future, through maybe some sort of SDK. To be able to change the flight dynamics engine to something more real?

 

Sincerely: Ron F. aka: Oldflyer2

 

My opinion is that this flight model is extremely accurate and all those real life manouevres are entirely possible in this sim once you have learnt how to fly it. Allowing people to mod the flight model would be counterproductive as it woudl result in a less accurate sim.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The truth is, that in forward flight of more than around 40 mph. The rudder control has literally no effect or almost nill.
The Ka-50 is documented as doing 90-degree lateral turns (heading changes) at speeds up to 90 km/h.

 

Maybe you just have the wrong idea of what is realistic? You may also not have a well configured controls set-up. In any case, the simulation may not be perfect, but there have been a number of pilots both internal and external to the team that have given their testimonials to the FM in Black Shark.

- EB

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer.

The Parable of Jane's A-10

Forum Rules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi For one example ie: When a helicoptor is in forward flight, there is no way that the wind resistance forces on the tail section would allow side slipping or sideward flight in Any Form! The truth is, that in forward flight of more than around 40 mph. The rudder control has literally no effect or almost nill.

And gets even less as your speed increases!

In this video, several sideslip can be observed : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYOF6piRvG8

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For one example ie: When a helicoptor is in forward flight, there is no way that the wind resistance forces on the tail section would allow side slipping or sideward flight in Any Form! The truth is, that in forward flight of more than around 40 mph. The rudder control has literally no effect or almost nill.

And gets even less as your speed increases!

 

Yeah, I have to disagree with this statement as well. I was just flying an Mi-17 yesterday (no, I'm not a pilot, but I get to fly on occasion) and while doing a traffic pattern, I found out that the tail rotor has quite a bit of authority and I was able to whip the nose about 20 degrees by using the pedals. And I was doing about 80-90 knots. I was actually out of trim and put in too much pedal, but that's beside the point. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ok it's Ron Again

 

Just for the comment on R/C Being real!

 

 

How Real do you feel this is!

 

I would think we would have to know something about flight dynamics

 

I'm sure you know quite a lot about the flight dynamics of 2ft long helicopters with thrust-to-weight ratios many many times greater than 1. Concerning helicopters that weigh thousands of kg, however, apparently not as much. I'm more inclined to trust the pilots that actually fly combat helicopters and who, as stated above, have endorsed the accuracy of the DCS flight model. Cheers for having the guts to make such a post in this forum, though :D.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, upon rereading your post, I'm getting the impression that your opinion of the flight model probably has a lot more to do with a misunderstanding of how to fly with the autopilot than the flight model itself. If you're not fully aware of just how the AP functions, the Ka-50 will seem like a nightmare to fly. So, my question to you is, do you know how to fly with the AP? :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ron, please waste 15 minutes trying the following:

 

1- Set up a mission with just you starting on any airbase. No payload, just fuel. You can start on the runway if you like. This is very easy to accomplish with the Mission Editor.

 

2- Before take off, hit LCtrl-A to remove autopilot (this is called "Flight Director" mode)

 

3- Turn Arm to On and hit "c" to bring up the cannon

 

4- Try blowing up all vehicles in the base

 

If after this you don't end up sweaty, smiling, and loving the sim, the beer is on me!

Westinghouse W-600 refrigerator - Corona six-pack - Marlboro reds - Patience by Girlfriend

 

"Engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely analyse so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance." (Dr. A. R. Dykes - British Institution of Structural Engineers, 1976)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just for the comment on R/C Being real!

 

 

How Real do you feel this is!

 

Hi Ron,

 

Sarcasm doesn't translate well through text, so I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say. The video you posted is extremely realistic from the point of view of R/C helicopter flying. Those are all standard maneuvers for an R/C helicopter, so in that sense, it's very real.

 

From the perspective of a full-size helicopter, those maneuvers are mostly impossible, so those maneuvers are not very realistic at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok Fellow Simmers

 

I can see that you all love a great flight Heli sim as much as I do!

And I am glad that I could start a thread that could really get your blood running.

 

I think you got the impression that my opinion on the flight dynamics was from a stand point that I could not fly the KA-50 in this sim! Oh contrar!

 

maybe my initial comment of way wrong was a little harsh! I agree!

maybe what I'm trying to say is it still has that Pendulam on a string feel.

 

believe me! I have researched just about every combat aircraft that they have made! my personnal choice will always be the Longbow! I think because I am a biased American Pilot! ...LOL

 

now I am going to attach a recorded flight I did a few minutes ago! it is a little late so forgive my jitters! It was a hard day at work.

 

the sim after all the trimming still feels to me to be Loose! The trim & Controls seem to change to much for no real reason. Like the maintenance guy forgot to tighten everything up.

 

That's just my opinion! This will be the last thing I will say about this subject! Or else I will have to get some back-up in here I think!..LOL

 

P.S. It is a great Sim! I hope they can get all the other bugs fixed also to make it the greatest Sim Ever!

 

Well I tried to attach a a recorded track file to kind of show what I meant!

But I guess you can't do that with with track files we make in our program!

 

I appologize for not being able to do that!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oldflyer..you jumped in dark waters.

 

even you may have some points right...i doubt you may get approving responds.. since there are sims....mostly the community responds in "our sim is great and best" ( a very strange phenomon ) and hard to find objective critics.... ;) from the "own lines"

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. Just... wow.

 

This guy's got some cojones.

 

Regarding the "looseness" comment: this helicopter is the most stable heli sim I've ever flown. I've literally taken off, pointed myself at my destination, set the trim, and walked away to go make myself a sandwich and get a drink (inflight meal :) ). I come back, and there she is, plugging along. I honestly don't understand how you can call it jittery or what-not. It is ridiculously stable and controllable. You need to work hard to push it past the controllability envelope.


Edited by wickedpenguin

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oldflyer, I would really like to see a track of your flight.

The single player tracks are saved in the Ka-50\Missions\Tracks folder.

 

I have some experience in military heli simulators and the first time I flew DCS Ka-50 I was stunned how close it came to my "real" experiences.

 

I only fly

and study the flight model into detail by looking at movies. Although there is certainly room for improvement, DCS Blackshark is for sure todays very best modeled helicopter sim for the PC.

Forum | Videos | DCS:BS Demo1 / Demo2 | YouTube Channel

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...have been flying simulators and other craft for many years. Including high end R/C Helicoptors and Sport 3D Airplanes as a lifelong hobby!

 

Maybe you are too used to R/C helicopters. Real and R/C helicopters are very different because of weight and power to weight ratio. These 2 differences that make very hard to compare R/C and real helicopters. Basically low weight and relatively huge power of R/C helicopter allow it to change speed and direction more quickly than 8000kg helicopter can.

 

The control input is way too soft and spongy.

 

Softness comes from control dampening. Sponginess comes from autopilot stabilization and wrong usage of trimmer. You can turn them off, but then you will find yourself floating all around.

 

The reaction time too input is way off!

 

This is result of inertia. Remember, it is over 8000kg helicopter.

 

For one example ie: When a helicoptor is in forward flight, there is no way that the wind resistance forces on the tail section would allow side slipping or sideward flight in Any Form! The truth is, that in forward flight of more than around 40 mph. The rudder control has literally no effect or almost nill.

And gets even less as your speed increases!

 

We need to determine what you mean by saying "rudder". Yaw control for Ka-50 is accomplished by 2 means: differential variation of pitch of rotors and by tail rudder. At high speeds pitch variation is ineffective, but tail rudder is very effective. At low speeds everything reverses. Even high speed fixed wing aircrafts can side slip, I see no reason why Ka-50 couldn't.

 

All anyone has to do is ask themselves, if this is a true and accurate flight engine? would any pilot be able to make manuvers like anyone has witnessed countless times on real tv and in hundreds of movies!

 

Experienced virtual pilot can do these maneuvers in this sim too.

 

Now to back up my opinion in the near future! I will provide real video footage links if I am aloud too, of an R/C controlled Coaxial helicoptor such as the KA-50 used in Blackshark just to back up my statements here.

 

Footage of R/C helicopters won't be good enough, because of already mentioned reasons: weight and weight to power ratio. However, there are lots of videos of real Ka-50.

Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was not going to post on this, but I can not resist

Sorry "OldFlyer2", but I agree with the guys here, I do not believe you have given yourself enough time on the game to fully understand the systems and the heli to fly it properly. I experience most of this situations you seems to be referring to when I first started flying and did not fully understand the KA-50. I think you should read some of the advice here and maybe ensure all your systems are operating properly and your joy stick is working properly as well.

 

Also, I'm no Helicopter pilot but to me, comparing R/C helicopters to real one is not a very good analogy or comparison. The same with comparing R/C airplanes to the real one. Even scale R/C aircraft will behave differently form real once ( I'm sure you know this and have just misunderstood your post).

 

At any rate, I think you should give the game a chance and actually learn it before you make your final judgment. I would love to see a video from your flight to see the inaccuracies you are referring to. Maybe "you tube" or another video web site. We could help you resolve your hardware or software issues, if you have any.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting comments OldFlyer2, and I think you have some merit but are perhaps on the wrong track.

 

I've never flown a co-ax helicopter but have played with Robos and Longrangers, not that these are by any means comparable to each other, let alone the Ka-50. But the Kamov behaves as I'd expect a dampened helicopter to fly.

 

The thing that bugs me about the flight dynamics, isn't so much the flight dynamics but the weather engine. Which, is due to change I believe with the new engine. This is another aspect which is difficult to convey accurately in simulators, on a warm day you will typically have the updraught and downdraught as you pass below clouds. You also have to take into account the terrain.

 

What happens when 30 knots of wind hits the side of a hill, well it goes up the hill, and then what happens when it gets to the other side? It drops, and becomes turbulent. It's this that needs to be addressed. If I have a tail wind and am sitting slap bang in front of a hangar, the chances are that I'm not going to notice the full effect of the wind until I move out of it's shadow. And then, I'd expect a whole heap of lumps and bumps.

 

Perhaps when (or even if?) that is added to the code you will look again at how realistic it is to fly the Shark.

 

Surely you've noticed the environmental effects when you are flying the RC helis?

 

One last point, and although I have to use a fixed wing as an example because I've never tried it in a real heli. There's no reason why the rudder cannot be effective at high speed. Think back if you like to the Warbirds with 1,500+ HP. These beasts had huge torque reactions and required constant rudder input, even at high speeds (unless you trim).

 

Just like I can be flying along in my Cessna 172 at 105/110kts and can happily use the rudder to skid across the sky, of course this imbalances the airframe and increases drag monumentally.

 

For what it's worth in the sim I've managed sidewards flight at 100km/h, naturally the faster you get in this position the more it wants to weathercock, but you will always be able to put it into some sort of slip.

 

Have a scoot through the manual on the autopilot channels and remember that this is nothing like an RC heli. Treat it like you did your first untethered RC flight without the buddy lead....

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 pages :music_whistling:

 

:megalol:

 

I think you predict well ;]

 

I don't want to discuss now, I wait for more ^^

Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D

ಠ_ಠ



Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think something that has been overlooked untill now is the fact the KA-50 is a twin-rotor design. I don't have any RL experience flying either a helo with a twin-rotor or one with a tail rotor, but I imagine it makes quite a bit of difference in the way the aircraft handles. :ermm:

 

And comparing RC to military attack helicopter... I dunno. :unsure:

 

*nvm, just figured out what coaxial rotor means. :rolleyes: :doh:


Edited by Arclight

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

DCS A-10C: putting the 'art' into 'warthog'.

(yes, corny. Sorry.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...