waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[plott1964]

Sorry, I believe you're in accurate.
While entitlement may play a very small role in some consumer interactions, it is not the primary driver of demand. Demand is more accurately characterized by value, market dynamics, consumer behavior, changing expectations, and empowerment.

[Silver_Dragon]

Let's remember, being customers doesn't make us shareholders or give us veto power or control. We only buy a product as end users. "The customer is absolutely right" doesn't apply here. All we'll achieve is destroying this simulation, and then the crying will come.

It's not a matter of sides here either. Many of us have opinions, and we let ourselves be swayed by a meager portion of information... and we believe ourselves to be judges, juries, and executioners. The day Wags and Nick close the Chiringuito, let's see who says "I'll take charge," because it also seems that everyone (as happens on the internet) is "an expert in everything," and our word is the law, and if not, we'll destroy those who don't think like us...

That's why I like to see things from the outside, because these arguments end in the same old thing: nothing. And many believe they have some power over what happens around them.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Well things are getting destroyed little by little, one module at a a time. 

Well, now is four in a row. 

Who knows in the future, because we dont know what modules are outside the file sharing policy since 2018. Lets get faith " in a positive outcome".

[jeventy26]

56 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Let's remember, being customers doesn't make us shareholders or give us veto power or control. We only buy a product as end users. "The customer is absolutely right" doesn't apply here. All we'll achieve is destroying this simulation, and then the crying will come.

It's not a matter of sides here either. Many of us have opinions, and we let ourselves be swayed by a meager portion of information... and we believe ourselves to be judges, juries, and executioners. The day Wags and Nick close the Chiringuito, let's see who says "I'll take charge," because it also seems that everyone (as happens on the internet) is "an expert in everything," and our word is the law, and if not, we'll destroy those who don't think like us...

That's why I like to see things from the outside, because these arguments end in the same old thing: nothing. And many believe they have some power over what happens around them.

nullI think everyone is saying that ED told us that if the 3rd party can't support they would have the files... Does not look like that was true.  So no, we don't have veto power... but you can see promises were made.  ED has admitted they do not in fact have the files. 

[Esac_mirmidon]

We dont know even since 2018 what modules are involved so.....

[alejandr0]

1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Let's remember, being customers doesn't make us shareholders or give us veto power or control. We only buy a product as end users. "The customer is absolutely right" doesn't apply here. All we'll achieve is destroying this simulation, and then the crying will come.

It's not a matter of sides here either. Many of us have opinions, and we let ourselves be swayed by a meager portion of information... and we believe ourselves to be judges, juries, and executioners. The day Wags and Nick close the Chiringuito, let's see who says "I'll take charge," because it also seems that everyone (as happens on the internet) is "an expert in everything," and our word is the law, and if not, we'll destroy those who don't think like us...

That's why I like to see things from the outside, because these arguments end in the same old thing: nothing. And many believe they have some power over what happens around them.

No one's demanding to run ED or dictate every move. But when people invest time and money into a platform, especially over years, it’s reasonable to speak up when something threatens the usability of what they've paid for.

This isn’t about internet “experts” or wanting power.
Silence or deflection only breeds more frustration. Lack of trust does destroy the sim.

[Silver_Dragon]

5 minutes ago, alejandr0 said:

No one's demanding to run ED or dictate every move. But when people invest time and money into a platform, especially over years, it’s reasonable to speak up when something threatens the usability of what they've paid for.

This isn’t about internet “experts” or wanting power.
Silence or deflection only breeds more frustration. Lack of trust does destroy the sim.

All has "invest" time and money here..... the eternal circle.
"Silence or deflection" .... Serious? The same old thing about forcing people to take sides.

Edited 8 hours ago by Silver_Dragon

[alejandr0]

20 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

All has "invest" time and money here..... the eternal circle.
"Silence or deflection" .... Serious? The same old thing about forcing people to take sides.

That’s not the point I’m making. This isn’t about taking sides. It’s about acknowledging that this situation affects real users in tangible ways, and that they have valid concerns.
People are tired of being told to “We are still hoping...” or “wait for a reasonable resolution for our customers” when there's no clear process explained. That’s where the frustration comes from... not from tribalism or a need to pick a side, but from being kept in the dark about what’s next.

I'm not demanding control, just clarity. That’s not unreasonable.

[Silver_Dragon]

5 minutes ago, alejandr0 said:

People are tired of being told to “We are still hoping...” or “wait for a reasonable resolution for our customers” when there's no clear process explained. That’s where the frustration comes from... not from tribalism or a need to pick a side, but from being kept in the dark about what’s next.

I'm not demanding control, just clarity. That’s not unreasonable.

You want clarity in a legal process....... And you keep generalizing, many of us don't care about the "drama".

Edited 7 hours ago by Silver_Dragon

[NineLine]

10 minutes ago, alejandr0 said:

That’s not the point I’m making. This isn’t about taking sides. It’s about acknowledging that this situation affects real users in tangible ways, and that they have valid concerns.
People are tired of being told to “We are still hoping...” or “wait for a reasonable resolution for our customers” when there's no clear process explained. That’s where the frustration comes from... not from tribalism or a need to pick a side, but from being kept in the dark about what’s next.

I'm not demanding control, just clarity. That’s not unreasonable.

We have shared all we can right now; it might be enough for everyone, but currently, that is all we can do right now. No matter how many times people ask, this will not change until there is something we can share. 

[alejandr0]

9 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

You want clarity in a legal process....... And you keep generalizing, many of us don't care about the "drama".

I'm not asking for legal disclosures or expecting anyone to break confidentiality. When I say there's "no clear process or direction," I'm specifically referring to the future of the modules.... what will happen if things don’t get resolved, what users can expect in terms of support, and whether there’s any contingency plan.

That’s not about legal drama, that’s about product responsibility and communication with paying customers.

[Silver_Dragon]

8 minutes ago, alejandr0 said:

I'm not asking for legal disclosures or expecting anyone to break confidentiality. When I say there's "no clear process or direction," I'm specifically referring to the future of the modules.... what will happen if things don’t get resolved, what users can expect in terms of support, and whether there’s any contingency plan.

That’s not about legal drama, that’s about product responsibility and communication with paying customers.

Oh my God... what part don't you understand? I also have all the RAZBAM modules and I paid for them... and VEAO, and many others...

Edited 7 hours ago by Silver_Dragon

[rob10]

1 hour ago, alejandr0 said:

I'm not asking for legal disclosures or expecting anyone to break confidentiality. When I say there's "no clear process or direction," I'm specifically referring to the future of the modules.... what will happen if things don’t get resolved, what users can expect in terms of support, and whether there’s any contingency plan.

That’s not about legal drama, that’s about product responsibility and communication with paying customers.

What you're asking for is not reasonable when there are legal proceedings going on regarding this.  If it was a hypothetical situation where all the ED F-18 devs quit, then yes, it would be reasonable for ED to be more forthcoming, because that would be a strictly internal matter that they have total control over.  In this case on the other hand, while I'm sure ED has a pretty good idea what their plan is if ultimately this does go south (it would be business malpractice if they don't), they would be ill advised to share anything about their plans publicly because Razbam could use every bit of that as ammunition against ED legally ("oh they were telling their customers they had plans x, y and z and not to worry.  Clearly they planned for this to fail and weren't negotiating in good faith").
The whole situation is very frustrating for customers, but that doesn't mean that ED isn't handling it "correctly" on most levels.

[Oban]

1 hour ago, alejandr0 said:

That’s not the point I’m making. This isn’t about taking sides. It’s about acknowledging that this situation affects real users in tangible ways, and that they have valid concerns.
People are tired of being told to “We are still hoping...” or “wait for a reasonable resolution for our customers” when there's no clear process explained. That’s where the frustration comes from... not from tribalism or a need to pick a side, but from being kept in the dark about what’s next.

I'm not demanding control, just clarity. That’s not unreasonable.

Try reading the first page, and the first page of every time this situation has produced a new thread, you haven't been kept in the dark, you just choose to have your head burried in the sand, instead of actually accepting what's been told to you repeatedly now. 

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, rob10 said:

they would be ill advised to share anything about their plans publicly because Razbam could use every bit of that as ammunition against ED legally ("oh they were telling their customers they had plans x, y and z and not to worry.  Clearly they planned for this to fail and weren't negotiating in good faith").

This makes zero sense. How does ED telling customers what the agreement says about maintenance and development of the Razbam planes, show a lack of good faith and that ED planned for the settlement to fail?

By telling people this information, customers would then be partially empowered to hold ED accountable for upholding their part of the agreement, which would just increase the pressure on ED to follow that agreement. So telling people can reasonably be seen as a sign that they are not afraid of this scrutiny, which is true if they acted in good faith.

The only way that telling people could have legal repercussions would be if they violated a part of the contract that says that they have to keep things secret, but it seems almost certain that the party who insisted on this extreme secrecy is ED, not Razbam.

Quote

The whole situation is very frustrating for customers, but that doesn't mean that ED isn't handling it "correctly" on most levels.

Is it really correct to leave customers in the dark for 8 months about an agreement, while selling these modules with zero information on the sales page of what customers can expect in the future, and while leaving those who already bought the modules frustrated and in the dark?

And is it really correct to make the DCS customers suffer for a dispute over on the military side of ED, in the first place?

And was it correct to immediately escalate the situation by withholding payments from Razbam, rather than first attempt to come to an agreement, so the impact on innocent developers/sub-contractors of Razbam would be minimized, as well as the impact on DCS customers?

And Razbam has apparently made a bunch of claims that if true, paint ED in a very poor light. I do find it peculiar that ED is not even willing to go on the record to dispel (or validate) these statements in ways that do not use dodgy language, but that do not divulge any competitive secrets. For example, while the payment amounts are a competitive secret, the fact that ED is paying third party developers like Razbam based on module sales is not at all a secret.

So ED could state that they either have made all the required payments (so far) as part of the settlement agreement, or state that they haven't, without ever having to divulge any actual secrets. That way they would show accountability for their own actions.

Edited 4 hours ago by Aapje

[rob10]

41 minutes ago, Aapje said:

This makes zero sense. How does ED telling customers what the agreement says about maintenance and development of the Razbam planes, show a lack of good faith and that ED planned for the settlement to fail?

That is not what the OP that I responded to was asking for.  He wanted ED to lay out how the ED was going to handle things if the whole situation irrevocably falls apart.  That's completely different.

I agree that it makes me uncomfortable that ED didn't have any sort of disclaimer after the dispute started, but, as with my contention in my OP, if they did then Razbam could have gone after them for potentially having harmed their sales, so it was a no win situation.

In any legal situation the first thing the lawyers are going to do is tell the company to SHUT THE .... UP!  Razbam apparently ignored their lawyers or got really bad advice, because saying anything publicly has way too much risk (either by accidentally saying the wrong thing or having your words twisted and used against you).

You're assuming ED didn't attempt to solve this by other means.  RB claimed many times that ED wouldn't communicate with them, but lo and behold a settlement agreement was reached so apparently that wasn't true.  Where did RB's postings get them other than contradictory information being in public (even if their statements were narrowly true at the time they were posted, it doesn't paint them in a very good light either).

[Beirut]

Not having become a lawyer just gets better and better every day. 

[Hammer1-1]

3 hours ago, Aapje said:

Is it really correct to leave customers in the dark for 8 months about an agreement, while selling these modules with zero information on the sales page of what customers can expect in the future, and while leaving those who already bought the modules frustrated and in the dark?

How come Razbam isnt being so forthcoming?