Whole map is tilted 10-12° clockwise

[iFoxRomeo]

The whole map is tilted 10-12° clockwise. Anyone else got this?

The Sabre is at Hannover "Start from Runway". 283(Mag) and 282(True) does not fit for a Runway 27.

 

Fox

 

 

 

 

[Volator]

That's a major issue that needs fixing, or all the IFR era-correct charts we want to use are useless or need massive manual amendment. 

[Rongor]

I cannot confirm this for the entire map.
It seems wrong for Hannover indeed, yet the runway heading on F10 map is the same you see ingame.

I just tested Berlin Tegel and Gatow and the rwy headings are correct.

So its not the entire map. Only Hanover (and maybe others we will have to discover).

 

266° is pretty accurate for both of Berlin-Tegel runways 26L and 26R...

 

Edited Sunday at 09:31 PM by Rongor

[Rongor]

I can confirm Wunstorf is turned 9 degrees cw. 1991 FLIP chart says 262.5° for rwy 26 yet F10 map reads 271°.

Spangdahlem 1991 FLIP chart reads 226.5° for rwy 23 and F10 map reads 236°, so 10° cw deviaton.

Frankfurt rwy headings are 9° higher than published (for that time).

Berlin airfields featuring no deviation is a hint that the map of this size struggles to project the converging meridians on a flat map scenery. It seems to be accurate at Berlin's longitude and then slowly turns clockwise the more west we go.
Not sure if this can be avoided.

Edited Sunday at 09:47 PM by Rongor

[winghunter]

The airports are mostly correct (purple lines), some may also have changed since the 80s.

But the TH indicated in the dcs mission editor is off. And possibly ingame too.

Edited Sunday at 10:45 PM by winghunter

[Pillowcat]

Magnetic values differ probably due difference of dates map represent and mission date you play, true courses drift is flat earth limitation artifact on any map in DCS.

Spoiler

Hannover magnetic declination estimated values
1964    -3.06075°
1969    -2.79268°
1974    -2.54291°
1979    -1.95885°
1984    -1.34987°
1989    -0.86843°
1994    -0.38727°
1999    0.19066°
2004    0.80605°
2009    1.42807°
2014    2.15453°
2019    2.9906°
2024    3.77186°

 

[Saguanay]

For Phase 3 reference.

[chaos]

Great map, tremendous detail, generally good performance but could do with less saturated colours.

However, doing dead-reckoning in an F-4, I am consistently off by 10deg. or so. For now this method is unusable and, considering it was a one of the primary ways of navigation in the 70's early 80's, this needs to be addressed if at all possible. Some confirmation that a possible fix is in the works would be greatly appreciated.

I am still happy with my purchase but this should be corrected.

Edited Monday at 12:12 AM by chaos
addition

[Nealius]

3 hours ago, Rongor said:

I can confirm Wunstorf is turned 9 degrees cw. 1991 FLIP chart says 262.5° for rwy 26 yet F10 map reads 271°.

Spangdahlem 1991 FLIP chart reads 226.5° for rwy 23 and F10 map reads 236°, so 10° cw deviaton.

Frankfurt rwy headings are 9° higher than published (for that time).

Was this tested with the mission date set to 1991?

[Ian Boys UK]

1 hour ago, chaos said:

could do with less saturated colours.

 

There will be other textures in the future but for now, set cloud cover . The Light Rain 1 preset works great.

[IvanK]

Just looked at Frankfurt with Mission Date June, June 1991, June 1999, June 2024 Rwy 25R

June 1991 Rwy 25R 260m 259T Variation 1 deg W

June 1999 Rwy 25R 259m 259 T Variation 0

June 2024 Rwy 25R 256m 258 T Variation 2 deg E

Jepp Chart 2013 lists RWY 25R as 248m with Variation 3.01E that implies 251T

Google Earth 2025 measures RW25R as 249.63 T (some small measurement error by me possible)

So True Heading of RWY's 25 in Frankfurt should be 251T

 

Edited Monday at 03:25 AM by IvanK

[Ian Boys UK]

Re colours:
 

[Rongor]

6 hours ago, IvanK said:

Just looked at Frankfurt with Mission Date June, June 1991, June 1999, June 2024 Rwy 25R

June 1991 Rwy 25R 260m 259T Variation 1 deg W

June 1999 Rwy 25R 259m 259 T Variation 0

June 2024 Rwy 25R 256m 258 T Variation 2 deg E

Jepp Chart 2013 lists RWY 25R as 248m with Variation 3.01E that implies 251T

Google Earth 2025 measures RW25R as 249.63 T (some small measurement error by me possible)

So True Heading of RWY's 25 in Frankfurt should be 251T

 

The true headings are irrelevant.
Since only the magnetic variation is changing over time while plate tectonic drift of continents is very likely not simulated, the true heading will always be the same.

Magnetic variation shift would be the only important factor in this matter, so its sufficient to simply observe the shifts in magnetic headings. Evidently the shift in real world  magnetic variation along the cold war era up until today is too small here to result in the 10 degree offsets we see at airfields the further west they are on the map. So we can rule out magnetic variation or "wrong" Mission dates being the culprit. These would only result in a few degrees (2° max?) offset. You can check on the magnetic variation lines on the F10 map in aviation display mode as well.

The issue we have at hand is that ingame runway headings (which are always published magnetic) deviate by up to more than 10 degrees from the published runway headings, regardless which mission date is set. And this deviation increases with decreasing longitude. The more east you go (Berlin for example) deviation decreases and headings become accurate.

 

Edited Monday at 07:56 AM by Rongor

[iFoxRomeo]

According to the in-game aviation map the relevant portion is between 1°E and 2°W. But this map is not from the 1980.

In-game with the compass rose you can measure it. 

Mission editor set to 1980: the mag var is between ~ -4.3° and +0.5°

Set to 2025 :  the mag var is between ~ +2.5° and +6°

 

But that is actually not my point. The map (either ME or F10) is tilted. Use the compass rose, put it on a crossing of the lat long lines and you should immediately realize that something is really off. The longitude lines (at least in the center of the map, as DCS has a flat earth) should be parallel to the 0°(true) heading of the compass rose.

Like this screeshot.

 

But I must also admit that it did not occur to me that this is a general problem on other maps as well. So now I don't expect a fix for this. It was simply immediately obvious on the german map for me.

Fox

 

[winghunter]

DCS uses Transverse Mercator projection. In the case of CWgermany the central meridian is 21° E

The runway locations are correct and match the real world sattelite imagery.

I know this, because we export the runway coordinates and render them inside DCS Web Planner (purple rectangles)

https://dcs-web-editor.github.io/dcs-web-viewer-deploy/?lat=53.63664895322603&lon=9.98785972595215&zoom=14#

What is incorrect, is the TH as well as the MH reading inside DCS and DCS ME. So it appears to be rather a bug with DCS than this particular map.

Edited Monday at 12:50 PM by winghunter

[pantasauras]

17 hours ago, Rongor said:

I can confirm Wunstorf is turned 9 degrees cw. 1991 FLIP chart says 262.5° for rwy 26 yet F10 map reads 271°.

Spangdahlem 1991 FLIP chart reads 226.5° for rwy 23 and F10 map reads 236°, so 10° cw deviaton.

Frankfurt rwy headings are 9° higher than published (for that time).

Berlin airfields featuring no deviation is a hint that the map of this size struggles to project the converging meridians on a flat map scenery. It seems to be accurate at Berlin's longitude and then slowly turns clockwise the more west we go.
Not sure if this can be avoided.

Quick, semi-off topic question, but where did you find a Spangdahlem FLIP? I haven't been able to find anything except for the limited info on milais and mil-de and some vatsim information.

[Rongor]

4 hours ago, pantasauras said:

Quick, semi-off topic question, but where did you find a Spangdahlem FLIP? I haven't been able to find anything except for the limited info on milais and mil-de and some vatsim information.

I got lucky as a kid on an Open Doors at Berlin-Tempelhof in 1991(?) and a Huey pilot there gifted me a DOD FLIP (Terminal) Low Altitude Europe North Africa and Middle East. (AIRAC 19 SEP 1991).

Unfortunately because I was young and stupid I ripped out the Tegel, Tempelhof and Gatow pages to have them right next to me for PC flying but of course these pages got lost over time. How could I have known this little book turn out to be a piece of gold 35 years later.

This old data is really hard to find.

6 hours ago, winghunter said:

DCS uses Transverse Mercator projection. In the case of CWgermany the central meridian is 21° E

The runway locations are correct and match the real world sattelite imagery.

I know this, because we export the runway coordinates and render them inside DCS Web Planner (purple rectangles)

https://dcs-web-editor.github.io/dcs-web-viewer-deploy/?lat=53.63664895322603&lon=9.98785972595215&zoom=14#

What is incorrect, is the TH as well as the MH reading inside DCS and DCS ME. So it appears to be rather a bug with DCS than this particular map.

Thanks for the insight. I guess this gives us hope the issue can be fixed?

Edited Monday at 07:08 PM by Rongor

[winghunter]

3 hours ago, Rongor said:

Thanks for the insight. I guess this gives us hope the issue can be fixed?

The same issue exists for Caucasus, so I'm not sure theres an easy fix. Havent checked other maps yet. It may break all existing missions if they fix it 

[IvanK]

Maybe unrelated or still under development but the DCS Web editor Purple rectangles at Frankfurt, Hannover , Leipzig Halle, Hannover EDDV are weird and not aligned with the underlay runways.

Whats the basis of 21deg E central meridian for the projection ? Seems a long way E from the Map centre point. 21E is around Warsaw. I would have though a central meridian around 10 deg E would be better for this map ?

In edition in the  ME the underlying "MAP" view is based on the TPC which is a Lambert Conformal projection.

Edited Monday at 11:31 PM by IvanK

[winghunter]

36 minutes ago, IvanK said:

Maybe unrelated or still under development but the DCS Web editor Purple rectangles at Frankfurt, Hannover , Leipzig Halle, Hannover EDDV are weird and not aligned with the underlay runways.

Whats the basis of 21deg E central meridian for the projection ? seems a long way E from the Map centre point. 21E is around Warsaw. I would have though a central meridian around 10 deg E would be better for this map ?

In edition the in the ME the underlying "MAP" view is based on the TPC which is a Lambert Conformal projection.

Yes the runway coordinates are flipped, so it goes end-end start-start instead of start-end start-end. Fix soon

Thats from the DCS data, not sure why they picked 21deg E. Maybe they plan to expand eastwards into Poland. Or maybe for WWII where germany expanded further east

Yes, the paper maps are usually lambert conformal, which is similar to TM. Maybe thats even what they use for DCS in game, LC seems to have the same params of false easting/northing and central meridian like TM

Edited Monday at 11:46 PM by winghunter

[winghunter]

Runways should be fixed now.

https://dcs-web-editor.github.io/dcs-web-viewer-deploy/

Most airports match perfectly.
There are a few airports I found that are not matching satellite data.

 

Leizig probably featuring an old runway, given how other airport buildings are aligned

Wunstorf is oddly rotated, not sure why, wouldnt make sense to renovate like this

Schönefeld is maybe showing the old runway, some other fields may be abandoned or have moved.

Edited Tuesday at 11:47 AM by winghunter