investigating No RWR warnings about SA-11 launch

[lester]

Hey,

I don't know how to reproduce it and also can't provide track file as it was on MP server, so I'm not going to post it in the Bugs section and I only flew Viper recently, that's why I'm posting it here.

3 times over last several days I got nothing on my RWR when SA-11 launched at me. But most of the times I did.

In the last case today I got RWR notification about Patriot that was launching at me immediately, but nothing for SA-11 that launched and was tracking earlier(see screenshot from the TacView). I specifically checked in advance that my RWR is turned on and I'm pretty sure it's not RWR blind spot at this angle.

It doesn't happen all the times though as I had no issues with RWR warnings for SA-11 locking and launching at me earlier during the same session on the same server.

I remember there was an issue with SA-11 not giving RWR warnings recently, but it was fixed (in June).

So, my question is: did anyone observed this too?

Thanks

null 

Edited Monday at 08:05 AM by lester

[Voy]

The SA-11 in some situations is able to fire in an optical guidance mode which does not use radar, and hence you wouldn't get an RWR alert.
This typically only occurs at relatively close range where the launcher could see you visually. Not sure if DCS models visual limitations with weather/clouds though.

[Czar66]

In a quick test. I got track then a launch warning. Sa-11 Buk "Gadfly" Fire Dome TEL

Missile smoke at the right middle portion of the image before those ridges.

Edited Tuesday at 02:32 AM by Czar66

[lester]

1 hour ago, Voy said:

The SA-11 in some situations is able to fire in an optical guidance mode which does not use radar, and hence you wouldn't get an RWR alert.
This typically only occurs at relatively close range where the launcher could see you visually. Not sure if DCS models visual limitations with weather/clouds though.

Is optical guidance mode for SA-11 simulated in DCS? I'm pretty sure I was rather far looking at the TacView: ~25nm launch, ~19nm hit in one case, 23 nm launch, 18 nm hit in another.

23 minutes ago, Czar66 said:

In a quick test. I got track then a launch warning. Sa-11 Buk "Gadfly" Fire Dome TEL

Missile smoke at the right middle portion of the image before those ridges.

Thank you for checking, I was also going to test offline.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be easily reproducible: even in the same very MP mission I had no issues with RWR warnings for SA-11 tracking and launching at me earlier.

[Czar66]

18 minutes ago, lester said:

Thank you for checking, I was also going to test offline.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be easily reproducible: even in the same very MP mission I had no issues with RWR warnings for SA-11 tracking and launching at me earlier.

Hey, no problem. These kinds of issues actually makes me scared if there is a bug for my next flights like this.

I can't think of a solid possibility other than another unit illuminating you for the missile guidance as the Sa-11 is capable irl, afaik. Some script on the mission might do that, not necessarily DCS itself.

My plane was tracked by SAM missiles through mountains a few years ago but the issue was fixed, iirc. I was afraid it was it once again.

[okopanja]

3 hours ago, Voy said:

The SA-11 in some situations is able to fire in an optical guidance mode which does not use radar, and hence you wouldn't get an RWR alert.
This typically only occurs at relatively close range where the launcher could see you visually. Not sure if DCS models visual limitations with weather/clouds though.

I think this is not modeled for neither BUK nor KUB.

Btw KUB is capable of LOAL launch IRL as well as fake launches (SA-3 can do this as well).

As for visual/ir  things are still half baked there with corner cases, but ED makes incremental improvements.

[lester]

2 hours ago, Czar66 said:

Hey, no problem. These kinds of issues actually makes me scared if there is a bug for my next flights like this.

I can't think of a solid possibility other than another unit illuminating you for the missile guidance as the Sa-11 is capable irl, afaik. Some script on the mission might do that, not necessarily DCS itself.

My plane was tracked by SAM missiles through mountains a few years ago but the issue was fixed, iirc. I was afraid it was it once again.

Also tried 3 times offline and wasn't able to reproduce. Might as well be a server-specific thing ofc.

[okopanja]

6 minutes ago, lester said:

Also tried 3 times offline and wasn't able to reproduce. Might as well be a server-specific thing ofc.

Its not possible to manipulate SAMs from server side scripts, available options that can be set are rather limitted, and some are even missing compared to CA UI.

RWR can show false readings if there is a desync between server and clients.

[skywalker22]

7 hours ago, lester said:

Is optical guidance mode for SA-11 simulated in DCS? I'm pretty sure I was rather far looking at the TacView: ~25nm launch, ~19nm hit in one case, 23 nm launch, 18 nm hit in another.

It has for over 10yrs in DCS.

[okopanja]

17 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

It has for over 10yrs in DCS.

This is SNR-125 (SA-3 target tracking and fire control radar). It does have TV channel IRL, as well as thermovision on later upgrades. The TV channel can be used for silent tracking, but the SAM itself requires the radar to lock and track target afterwards. The SAM itself transmits the commands to the seeker, which arms ~450m before the impact the fuze gets activated and will trigger explosion within the 45m of the target. 

Only small number of batteries had thermovision in 1999 (possibly only 1), since the already purchased upgrade kits were resolved before the war to Egypt. I am curious to find out who was the person who pushed and authorized this. 

However in DCS this SAM has no TV sensor implemented (checked in LUA). 

Also missing is the control cabine as well as power supply which are deployed in close proximity of the SNR-125.

 

Other SAMs which should, but do not have have this DCS:

- SA-6 (e.g. capable of passive LOAL launches IRL!)

- SA-8

 

Edited Tuesday at 11:00 AM by okopanja

[lester]

9 hours ago, okopanja said:

Its not possible to manipulate SAMs from server side scripts, available options that can be set are rather limitted, and some are even missing compared to CA UI.

RWR can show false readings if there is a desync between server and clients.

This particular MP server dynamically "activates"/"deactivates" SA-11 sites when you are at the specific range so that they suddenly pop-up out of nowhere: maybe that affected it somehow, not sure.

I honestly doubt it was desync because I immediately got RWR warning from Patriot launching at me before being splashed by SA-11.

[Amarok_73]

It happened to me yesterday, the SA-11 was higlighted on RWR as actively tracking me, but there were no any warning sound.

 

[BIGNEWY]

1 minute ago, Amarok_73 said:

It happened to me yesterday, the SA-11 was higlighted on RWR as actively tracking me, but there were no any warning sound.

 

we will need a track replay example. 

thank you 

[lee1hy]

there is no optical guide in DCS SAMs 

[Gilligan]

I have experienced this in the past as well. I'll see if I can get a track this weekend.

[Amarok_73]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

we will need a track replay example.

I know this requirement, but this was multiplayer session, so track file would be quite large, IF we'd not have disabled the track saving with "disable_write_track = true" on both, the server, and client.

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

Can confirm. Got a nasty little surprise the other day in a MP server. No launch warning and if I recall correctly, nothing even on the RWR suggesting it was in search mode (though I cannot 100% confirm this). The most maddening thing of all is that I was actually able to reproduce this in single player a few times the other day, never saved the tracks, and have not been able to reproduce it since. 

As of today, still getting launched at by SA-11's with no subsequent RWR warning on the same MP server (though I know what to look for now). 

Edited 15 hours ago by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[DD_Fenrir]

15 hours ago, Amarok_73 said:

I know this requirement, but this was multiplayer session, so track file would be quite large, IF we'd not have disabled the track saving with "disable_write_track = true" on both, the server, and client.

 

5 hours ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

Can confirm. Got a nasty little surprise the other day in a MP server. No launch warning and if I recall correctly, nothing even on the RWR suggesting it was in search mode (though I cannot 100% confirm this). The most maddening thing of all is that I was actually able to reproduce this in single player a few times the other day, never saved the tracks, and have not been able to reproduce it since. 

As of today, still getting launched at by SA-11's with no subsequent RWR warning on the same MP server (though I know what to look for now). 

 

Are you guys using any unofficial mods?

 

[Northstar98]

On 7/29/2025 at 2:33 AM, Voy said:

The SA-11 in some situations is able to fire in an optical guidance mode which does not use radar, and hence you wouldn't get an RWR alert.
This typically only occurs at relatively close range where the launcher could see you visually. Not sure if DCS models visual limitations with weather/clouds though.

The SA-11 is SARH - it must use the radar to illuminate the target at some stage in its flight, regardless of whether the target is being tracked via TV or via radar.

Most of the time optical systems only provide angle-tracking as a way to defeat jamming.

On 7/29/2025 at 11:58 AM, okopanja said:

The TV channel can be used for silent tracking, but the SAM itself requires the radar to lock and track target afterwards.

Not sure this is correct.

Aside from transmitting radio command guidance to the missiles, the SA-3's 3-point guidance method only requires that the target and missile(s) be tracked in angle, this can be done passively with the target being tracked by the TV camera and the missile's radio beacon(s) being tracked by the 2 UV-11 antennas, which are receive-only.

It's only for the SA-3's lead-guidance method where target and missile range needs to measured which requires the radar transmit.

On 7/29/2025 at 11:58 AM, okopanja said:

The SAM itself transmits the commands to the seeker

The missiles on the SA-3 (and command-guided systems in general) do not have seekers - they are command guided. The only thing they have is a radio proximity fuse.

Edited 1 hour ago by Northstar98

[BIGNEWY]

we are going to need dcs logs and tracks. 

I would suggest if you are using unofficial mods to remove them and run a slow repair 

thank you 

[BIGNEWY]

I have changed the tag from fixed back to investigating for now

[Gilligan]

Only had time to try one scenario, but it was working last night.

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, Gilligan said:

Only had time to try one scenario, but it was working last night.

yes we have tested and it seems ok, but the testing team will continue to check it.