DCS series, no Air to Air?

[Slayer]

I thought I read that they were going to do something with Lockon...it wasn't clear if it was a patch or an expansion...

[*Rage*]

I thought I read that they were going to do something with Lockon...it wasn't clear if it was a patch or an expansion...

 

A 'Product'

[Panzertard]

WHAT I WANT IS AN SU-27 MODELED LIKE IN BLACKSHARK!!!!

 

You want a Su-27 that can hover? ... creepy ...

[Speed_2]

USAF tasking is one thing - the problem arises in that you cannot have it do effective A2A while it's carrying it's a2g stuff. This means the CFT's, and anything that's strapped to them.

 

In short, if you want to do A2A well, you must completely get rid of the A2G stuff on that plane. Until you do so, it's a pig, and pigs are at a disadvantage in BVR as well as WVR.

 

Well, here is where I disagree. You say that the F-15E is not multirole because it can't do A2A that well while it is carrying air to ground munitions. Well, neither can the F/A-18, or the F-16, or the MiG-29SM. If an F-15E went up with an air-to-air loadout, it would do just fine.

 

The real reason the F-15E is not a multi-role fighter is simply because it NEVER goes up with a pure air to air loadout.

 

However, people playing flight sims have no inhibition against taking their virtual F-15Es up and doing air to air all day long. Furthermore, scenarios can be envisioned where the USAF WOULD send the F-15E up with an air to air loadout, or F-15Es are retasked to intercept some flight of incoming bandits because they are the only aircraft in position to do so. JDAMs are pretty cheap, so no crying should they have to be jettisoned.

 

I also disagree with you about an aircraft having to be absolutely clean to engage in effective BVR, as it really depends on the opponent, and the exact situation. It would be ridiculous to jettison everything to engage a MiG-21 with an F-16 when the MiG is 25 miles away. Unless it's like a MiG-21-93, all he's got is short range missiles and a short range radar. When engaging in long range BVR fights against R-77/AMRAAM armed opponents, you're likely going to want to get as much speed and altitude as possible before you launch your missile, so as to give your missile extra range, and then turn around immediately after firing OR after the missile going pitbull. However, should you wait till your own missile goes pitbull, the enemy, if he immediately turned away, may have an active radar homing missile going pitbull on YOU just as YOURS goes pitbull, and you just spent the last 20 seconds flying straight towards his missile and have no hope of escaping it (short of actually spoofing it, which, depending on who you talk to, may be very difficult to do with current generations or ARH missiles). So, in such engagements, it may be that the only intelligent manuver to do is to fire your ARH missiles at long range and immediately turn around to outrun the enemy's incoming ARH missile(s). The result of this tactic is that you spend a LONG time in afterburner, and, if you immediately jetisonned your fuel tanks at the beginning of the fight, you may get into trouble.... it all depends.

 

One final thing. You mention conformal fuel tanks (CFTs). I've always understood that CFTs were PERMENENT fuel tanks blended into/onto the body of an aircraft, hence, conformal. I may be wrong about this, though.

 

Edit: looks like I was right about CFTs, check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_Fuel_Tanks

 

Edit2: But, reading that article, it looks like I may be wrong about the strike eagle. I always thought those tanks under the wings were drop tanks, but if they're permenent, then the F-15E WOULD be permenently slightly crippled in BVR, and crippled WVR.

 

Edit3: I now, I may have come full circle and finally understand why you mentioned CFTs :)

 

Edit4: I guess those things under the wings ARE drop tanks, just looked it up, the CFTs are on the wing roots... kinda hard to see.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Speed_2

[Speed_2]

Well, back on subject, if we can't have the F-15E, I'd take the F-15C. I think it would go better if we had an A-10C and F-15C, the two would make a good match as the F-15C could protect the A-10s as they hit their ground targets.

 

And anyone who doesn't want an F-15E is underestimating the sheer awesomeness of steering a bomb over a datalink to a target. Just think of all the cool weapons we would get, CBUs, Mks, paveways (GBU-28 5000lbs!!!), JDAMs, JSOWs, GBU-15s/AGM-130s, Mavericks... mmmmm. Not to mention, an aircraft that would be a mean energy fighter EVEN WITH CFTs. Heck, if you're doing BVR, an energy fighter is better than a turning fighter.

[asparagin]

a true "arrogant, realism-obsessed Falcon 4 junkie" NEVER edits his post

[Speed_2]

a true "arrogant, realism-obsessed Falcon 4 junkie" NEVER edits his post

Well, I've got to be always right, I gotta edit the post to make sure I am :)

 

Edit: Besides, I'm quickly becoming an arrogant, realism-obsessed DCS Black Shark junkie :P

 

Edit2: I guess you're right, all the TRUE "arrogant, realism-obsessed Falcon 4 junkies" are still over playing Falcon and won't touch DCS with a 10 foot pole because they have an irrational hatred for everything Eagle Dynamics because they made the "sin" of producing the "arcade-like" LOMAC.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Speed_2

[Callsign.Vega]

Well, I've got to be always right, I gotta edit the post to make sure I am :)

 

Edit: Besides, I'm quickly becoming an arrogant, realism-obsessed DCS Black Shark junkie :P

 

Edit2: I guess you're right, all the TRUE "arrogant, realism-obsessed Falcon 4 junkies" are still over playing Falcon and won't touch DCS with a 10 foot pole because they have an irrational hatred for everything Eagle Dynamics because they made the "sin" of producing the "arcade-like" LOMAC.

 

They really hate StarForce also!

[Chonker]

How about a spectre gunship? :D

[asparagin]

Edit2: I guess you're right, all the TRUE "arrogant, realism-obsessed Falcon 4 junkies" are still over playing Falcon and won't touch DCS with a 10 foot pole because they have an irrational hatred for everything Eagle Dynamics because they made the "sin" of producing the "arcade-like" LOMAC.

 

Well I went from DCS to LOMAC and it is true, you can easily spot the difference. But.. and i will just leave it like this because no one wants to start that topic again.

 

I'm having a lot of fun with DCS and LOMAC FC and wait for A-10C, hopefully with A-10 AI pilots at least as good as the Ka 50 pilots in DCS.

[nemises]

WHAT I WANT IS AN SU-27 MODELED LIKE IN BLACKSHARK!!!!

 

WHAT I WANT IS AN MIG29 MODELED LIKE IN BLACKSHARK!!!!

 

WHAT I WANT IS AN F15C MODELED LIKE IN BLACKSHARK!!!!

 

...dude...you are in luck ;) ...

All 3 of those are on the list!!

 

...along with F16c, Mi24, AH64a, A10a/c

[sobek]

All 3 of those are on the list!!

...along with F16c, Mi24, AH64a, A10a/c

 

Yeah, it's just that this list is what they intend to do, from what i know, there's no real plan for after the A-10 module yet. Don't get too overexcited, it's all a bunch of good intentions until it's really been confirmed.

[Rikus]

I think that after A10, an air to air aircraft will give lot of money to ED to continue develping than other helicopter, because there are lot of people that don´t buy this and are waiting to an a2a plane.

 

Greetings

[Groove]

WHAT I WHAT IS AN F-15C MODELED LIKE IN BLACK SHARK

 

You want to release your Shiftkey next time you post because i dont want to give you a warning ;) :thumbup:

[wickedpenguin]

MiG-29? F-15E? Pfffffft! I want a TRUE multirole aircraft.

 

DCS: An-2 Colt

 

Cropdusting... Paradropping... Polish VIP transport... Firefighting waterbomber... regional airliner... Aerial ambulance...

 

Can your precious Sukhois and MiGs stop a forest fire, drop a few paratroopers behind enemy lines, carry General Zyskowska to his next meeting, spray the kolkhoz's crops, and then carry little Ivan to get his kidney transplant - all in a day's work? All this and be able to land and takeoff in the length of an IL-76's wingspan?

 

No? Didn't think so.

 

:)

[jctrnacty]

My bet is that after A-10, ED will release a SU-27.......... :-)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

WHAT I WANT IS A MIG-29S MODELED LIKE IN BLACK SHARK

Yes, give me a MiG-29S!!

[GGTharos]

However, people playing flight sims have no inhibition against taking their virtual F-15Es up and doing air to air all day long.

 

Yep, I'd do this too, but I'd strip it of everything A2G related, including the CFTs. And those who didn't? I'd shoot them down all day long and watch the wonder why their pig doesn't perform :D

 

 

Furthermore, scenarios can be envisioned where the USAF WOULD send the F-15E up with an air to air loadout, or F-15Es are retasked to intercept some flight of incoming bandits because they are the only aircraft in position to do so. JDAMs are pretty cheap, so no crying should they have to be jettisoned.

 

Yes, it's called desperation. Just ditching the JDAMs isn't good enough. You have massive additional drag and weight from the CFTs and pods. They affect everything: Your acceleration, the amount of stick throw you can put in, the amount of g's you can pull, the altitude you can comfortably fight at.

 

 

I also disagree with you about an aircraft having to be absolutely clean to engage in effective BVR, as it really depends on the opponent, and the exact situation.

 

And I claim that this is because you don't understand BVR. It's one thing to self-escort and toss a missile at an opponent who slipped through to get him out of the way - either by shooting him down or forcing him defensive - and another to actually start a serious BVR fighter sweep or intercept on another fighter. These are all fuel-consuming tasks where your primary mission is A2G.

I know of one case (that I remember) where an aircraft actually performed such a swing-role duty - and that was an F-16 that had dropped its ordnance and was now flying relatively clean, and happened to have a target within reach. Again, VERY rare.

Another F-16 self-escorted and launched an AMRAAM to get a MiG out of it's way. The missile didn't hit, and wasn't meant to - it was launched at nearly Rmax and the 16 pilot wanted the bandit gone so he wouldn't have to turn around or drop his munitions to fight - ie. abandoning his mission.

 

 

It would be ridiculous to jettison everything to engage a MiG-21 with an F-16 when the MiG is 25 miles away.

 

Yes, but it's no longer ridiculous if that MiG-21 gets within 10nm. F-15's eat BVR opponents like cereal, but it doesn't mean there aren't tactics that will allow you to sneak in. It's uch harder against an A2A tasked aircraft however, than against a heavy, A2G tasked aircraft.

 

you're likely going to want to get as much speed and altitude as possible before you launch your missile, so as to give your missile extra range, and then turn around immediately after firing OR after the missile going pitbull. However, should you wait till your own missile goes pitbull, the enemy, if he immediately turned away, may have an active radar homing missile going pitbull on YOU just as YOURS goes pitbull, and you just spent the last 20 seconds flying straight towards his missile and have no hope of escaping it (short of actually spoofing it, which, depending on who you talk to, may be very difficult to do with current generations or ARH missiles). So, in such engagements, it may be that the only intelligent manuver to do is to fire your ARH missiles at long range and immediately turn around to outrun the enemy's incoming ARH missile(s). The result of this tactic is that you spend a LONG time in afterburner, and, if you immediately jetisonned your fuel tanks at the beginning of the fight, you may get into trouble.... it all depends.

 

Seriously ... real fights don't go quite like they do in falcon ;)

And Falcon missiles tend to be quite a bit overmodeled. Further, real life fuel consumption will have you going back home if you're doing A2G and you suddenly start an A2A engagement.

 

One final thing. You mention conformal fuel tanks (CFTs). I've always understood that CFTs were PERMENENT fuel tanks blended into/onto the body of an aircraft, hence, conformal. I may be wrong about this, though.

 

CFTs can be removed, but not jettisoned. The only cases where I've seen them used for A2A was on the Icelandic eagles, whose job was to either loiter for a very long time, or achieve very long range intercepts against bombers and strike aircraft - not fighters.

[GGTharos]

Why? It's an old piece of junk. :P

Wish for an SMT at least or something!

 

Yes, give me a MiG-29S!!

[TKMR]

They really hate StarForce also!

 

Who doesn't? I almost didn't by Black Shark after I found out it had StarForce.

 

I'd like a Carrier based craft. =D

[Lancelot]

I can't remember, but there ever was an official ED poll asking what aircraft were preferred?. Giving options of aircraft that could be modeled at the level of the Ka50, not aircraft like F35 and such that most information is classified.

Since we can only wish, and what i would like most is a Harrier 2, considering that the next module will be the A-10 and for the moment we have a focus on AG combat, i would prefer next to have the counterparts to the Ka50 and the A-10. Which i think would mean have the Su25 and the Apache or Supercobra (i prefer the seccond :) ). So we can FoF operations withe similar roles for both sides.

And keeping the wishing line, it would be best to move to the AA aspect of the sim, after having the counterparts of the A10 and Ka50, by a single module with two aircraft with AA capabitly (Su27 and F15) or what ever combination you can think of. For me, the most important, is that we have the opotunity to have some kind of balanced FoF operations, with attacker, escort and interception roles.

Such is my wish! :)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Why? It's an old piece of junk. :P

Wish for an SMT at least or something!

Because I would rather see a good simulation of the OLD airplanes then a guess work of the new airplanes. :smilewink:

 

Reminder SAM=Stealth STOP!

[Feuerfalke]

Because I would rather see a good simulation of the OLD airplanes then a guess work of the new airplanes. :smilewink:

 

+1

 

Besides the better availability, the 80s planes offer a nice background considering various cold-war scenarios and they also are more to flying and operating the plane than those fency modern user-optimized almost MFCD-only-cockpits. :smilewink:

[MBot]

Yes, it's called desperation. Just ditching the JDAMs isn't good enough. You have massive additional drag and weight from the CFTs and pods. They affect everything: Your acceleration, the amount of stick throw you can put in, the amount of g's you can pull, the altitude you can comfortably fight at.

 

...

 

Yes, but it's no longer ridiculous if that MiG-21 gets within 10nm. F-15's eat BVR opponents like cereal, but it doesn't mean there aren't tactics that will allow you to sneak in. It's uch harder against an A2A tasked aircraft however, than against a heavy, A2G tasked aircraft.

 

Didn't two USN Hornets down 2 MiG-21 with Sidewinders during Desert Storm while keeping their A-G weapons, continuing to bomb an airfiled after their shootdowns?

[GGTharos]

If they did, link meh! Circumstances tend to be important and this sounds very interesting :)