Next DCS (US) Fixed Wing Aircraft Wish List

Banshee · April 13, 2015

The elusive Phantom

With a nice assortment of Migs and the Saber out, when will someone turn their eyes to the much forgotten F4 Phantom. Seems in every flight sim this iconic baby gets left at the dance and I dont know why. I realize its a two seater but is that the reason. We have flanking adversaries in WWII, Korea and modern conflict now one aircraft could easily tie in the Vietnam era. Not to leave the Huey rotorheads out, but Im not taking on migs in a shortbus :). This isnt just DCS this happens in even FSX this baby gets a pass, with one or two barely functioning models available. Love the stuff coming out here in DCS just pondering the mysteries that keep me awake at night

Ultra · April 13, 2015

Believe me the Phantom (alongside the F-16) is one of the most wanted planes for DCS, but I think VEAO looked into it and the company that owns the Phantom (I forget which company, is it still McDonnell Douglas?) wasn't offering a very good licensing deal, IIRC.

JozMk.II · April 13, 2015

Believe me the Phantom (alongside the F-16) is one of the most wanted planes for DCS, but I think VEAO looked into it and the company that owns the Phantom (I forget which company, is it still McDonnell Douglas?) wasn't offering a very good licensing deal, IIRC.

I believe it's Boeing who currently owns the rights to the Phantom, as they bought McDonnell Douglass in 1997. Edited April 13, 2015 by JozMk.II

Ultra · April 13, 2015

I believe it's Boeing who currently owns the rights to the Phantom, as they bought McDonnell Douglass in 1997.

Ahh yes, that's right.

Devil 505 · April 13, 2015

I have posted this before, however it might be more fitting for this thread. Milviz Simulations got the rights to produce the most authentic F-4 to date for FSX. After DCS, I told myself I would never go back to FSX much less any other sim.

When Aerosoft released their F-14, I dusted off the FSX and went back on my word. I must say, and recommend, if anybody wants to prepare for LNS F-14, this is a GREAT way to do it. As far as the Phantom, I have to say the same for Milviz. Its in an Alpha/Beta right now and still being constantly worked on. I highly suggest giving it a shot until one of the third parties for DCS (Hopefully LNS) picks up the girl. Here is Milviz website and a few videos.

http://milviz.com/flight/products/F4E/index.php

Bring it to DCS LNS!

pyromaniac4002 · April 13, 2015

Believe me the Phantom (alongside the F-16) is one of the most wanted planes for DCS, but I think VEAO looked into it and the company that owns the Phantom (I forget which company, is it still McDonnell Douglas?) wasn't offering a very good licensing deal, IIRC.

I know they were trying to do the A-4 Skyhawk, but I never heard anything about an F-4 Phantom.. I'm sure somebody will pick it up eventually. It's just too important not to.

Ultra · April 13, 2015

I know they were trying to do the A-4 Skyhawk, but I never heard anything about an F-4 Phantom.. I'm sure somebody will pick it up eventually. It's just too important not to.

It's hard to remember, but I think VEAO gave a vague statement saying the F4 was looked into but 'wasn't a viable project' or something like that. I got the impression they ran into the same problems as with the A-4 and it was nixed even quicker. I could be wrong about that though.

I'd bet someone will make it eventually, but not for a long while. :(

Banshee · April 14, 2015

the A4 is another great Marine Corps bird although the Phantom has more generic popularity i would imagine. Although Im biased Marine Corps aviation, a ton of other countries flew these amazing aircraft, again love what ou have and shoot for the stars, no one will ever make a dcs A-6 or EA6b for dcs so I have to hope for something

Pman · April 14, 2015

Allow me to chip in here re VEAO Phantom and A4 Skyhawk

McDonnell Douglas offered us really junk terms for the licences for the Skyhawk, to the point that we would have not made any money on the product, obviously as soon as this was realised and the negotiations came to an end we terminated the project and do not foresee it making a comeback.

With the F4, during our due diligence it became apparent there are still a large number of embargos on the systems of the F4 were still restricted by the US Department of Defence and I was told directly by them that they will not allow a high fidelity simulator to be produced. As such the F4 project stopped before it got past me. As far as I was told this applies to all variants of the F4 although we were only interested in the Royal Navy FAS variant. We would not have made any other variants .

I can’t comment on other 3rd parties but we at VEAO will only undertake projects with the backing of the aircraft manufacturer and if appropriate any national government with security concerns, obviously this doesn’t really apply to a lot of our list being earlier WW2 types and early jets. Anyone who has followed the Typhoon development will know that we have some amazing access to the real deal and we would not endanger this or any of our military contracts by trying to dodge our obligations or skirt around the law.

Think of it this way, who would the USA not want to have their hands on a full military grade F4 Simulator that they are not very friendly with at the moment…

Pman

King_Hrothgar · April 14, 2015

Turkey! :P

Seriously though, others have done detailed F-4 models. There is one that recently came out for FSX mentioned above in this thread. FSX falls a bit short of DCS standards in flight modeling, but it did button punching pretty well last time I played it. That said, I can't blame you for trying your hardest to make the US/UK governments happy. It can't be easy getting the type of access you have to real Typhoons.

Solty · April 14, 2015

@Pman Thanks for that clarification. To me it is wierd that we have modeled F-15C(yeah its not PFM) but can't have F4, but I guess F4 is a super weapon xD

I agree with others though and I'll say, that F4 Phantom is one of the most important planes around the world. I've never liked it too much. To me it is a truck with big engines and missles. The plane had very high losses over Vietnam.

But I would love to see it fight agaist MiG21.

I would still want even more than F4 the F-16C which is another plane that is used in amazing numbers by many countries and is quite formidable oponent for both Su27 and MiG29.

Myself I would understand if both planes would not have all that high tech stuff, but instead they would have Cold War systems like we have for F-15C and Su27... but I can only dream :P

Pman · April 14, 2015

At the end of the day for us at least it just comes down to the permission granted. I can't say whether I agree or disagree with the rules those are just the rules.

Believe me we have been to hell and back with the rules for the Eurofighter and when people are willing things can be worked out but when the answer is just a flat "No" then that's the end of the discussion, especially with the Military

I cant speak for the accuracy of other aircraft from FSX etc only re-iterate that DCS has substantially higher standards then FSX. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Pman

Wolf Rider · April 14, 2015

have to keep in mind though, that if the desire is to use the manufacturer's name... licensing is required _Trade mark laws, etc, etc

But, under US Copyright Law, "Government Works" is not copy writable, as anything done by Government , is basically Public Domain, as it is publically funded through taxes collected, and as such it is owned by the Common Wealth... (that of the people), and therefore publically owned

So, from that, the use of military designation is permissible, and anything associated with that. Who is the Commander In Chief (of the military)? yep, you guessed it, the publically funded office of The US Presidency. The military itself is funded from taxes collected from the public (and corporations)

As appreciative as it is to have the full permission of the manufacturer, as soon as their "design" is accepted by the military, it falls into 'common wealth" domain and (manufacturers' lawyers like making some go weak at the knees with their promises of legal action)

Kudos on trying the better approach though

Edited April 14, 2015 by Wolf Rider

Pman · April 14, 2015

have to keep in mind though, that if the desire is to use the manufacturer's name... licensing is required _Trade mark laws, etc, etc
But, under US Copyright Law, "Government Works" is not copy writable, as anything done by Government , is basically Public Domain, as it is publically funded through taxes collected, and as such it is owned by the Common Wealth... (that of the people), and therefore publically owned
So, from that, the use of military designation is permissible, and anything associated with that. Who is the Commander In Chief (of the military)? yep, you guessed it, the publically funded office of The US Presidency. The military itself is funded from taxes collected from the public (and corporations)

As appreciative as it is to have the full permission of the manufacturer, as soon as their "design" is accepted by the military, it falls into 'common wealth" domain and (manufacturers' lawyers like making some go weak at the knees with their promises of legal action)

Kudos on trying the better approach though

Sadly that is completely not true, EA have been trying to argue this for years and there are still lawsuits ongoing : http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/16/ea-settles-battlefield-3-and-textron-helicopter-lawsuit/

Thats not to mention the previous issues with Grumman with other sims.

If they own the IP to the systems and design specs then they own the designs. I am not worried about the name or designation that would worry me. Its the designs of the radar, electronics, engines etc etc that bother me.

But I digress, I have already covered this topic a number of times all over the forums

Pman

Ultra · April 14, 2015

Thanks for the clarification Pman. Sorry guys, I know it's a really wanted module but if they can't make it, they can't make it. It's not worth it if they have to make lots of compromises to get around the rules anyways.

Maybe sometime in the future....

Ultra · April 14, 2015

And there's still hope for the F-16 at least. Not by VEAO, but maybe by someone else. (If I'm not mistaken you guys said you didn't want to do the F-16)

Pman · April 14, 2015

And there's still hope for the F-16 at least. Not by VEAO, but maybe by someone else. (If I'm not mistaken you guys said you didn't want to do the F-16)

Yeah the f16 isn't really of interest to us.

we'll leave that for someone else I think, unless a military contract comes up in the mean time.

Pman

Ultra · April 14, 2015

No hard feelings ;)

You guys have a lot of exciting aircraft in the works, and your so engaged with the community! Keep up the great work! :)

SDsc0rch · April 14, 2015

Allow me to chip in here re VEAO Phantom and A4 Skyhawk...

With the F4, during our due diligence it became apparent there are still a large number of embargos on the systems of the F4 were still restricted by the US Department of Defence and I was told directly by them that they will not allow a high fidelity simulator to be produced.

...

Pman

first, thank you for this insight and feedback

second, i'm sorta confused ----- the US govt won't permit a high-fidelity rendition/replication of an F-4, yet it *will* permit modeling an F-14

???

not asking you to explain the US govt's actions - i'm just expressing out loud my astonishment at the inconsistency there....

: /

Buzzles · April 14, 2015

first, thank you for this insight and feedback

second, i'm sorta confused ----- the US govt won't permit a high-fidelity rendition/replication of an F-4, yet it *will* permit modeling an F-14
???

not asking you to explain the US govt's actions - i'm just expressing out loud my astonishment at the inconsistency there....
: /

Difference is that a version of the F-14 is only in use by one other country (only a handful at that, and without support contracts), and all the rest have been retired from the US inventory. None are flown by the US military in any capacity.

The F4 on the other hand is not only still in US use (QF-4 etc..) but very much still a front line combat aircraft in a number of others, and it'll have various support contracts going on between said operators and US Defence Contractors via the DoD, plus sharing of technology etc...

Take that into account and it's pretty easy to see why they'd be okay with one but not the other.

Solty · April 14, 2015

Difference is that a version of the F-14 is only in use by one other country (only a handful at that, and without support contracts), and all the rest have been retired from the US inventory. None are flown by the US military in any capacity.

The F4 on the other hand is not only still in US use (QF-4 etc..) but very much still a front line combat aircraft in a number of others, and it'll have various support contracts going on between said operators and US Defence Contractors via the DoD, plus sharing of technology etc...

Take that into account and it's pretty easy to see why they'd be okay with one but not the other.

And yet we are getting F/A-18C which is still in use.

Pman · April 14, 2015

And yet we are getting F/A-18C which is still in use.

I'd suggest you read that reply from Buzzles again ;)

Pman

Banshee · April 15, 2015

aahhh tied up in the world of international trade and other assorted nonsense, that makes way more sense than being scared of modeling a two seater, although still way bummer...then my hat will rest on the dream of an A-6, EA6b or a F4U Corsair..... mmm Pappy would be stoked lol

cichlidfan · April 15, 2015

To me it is wierd that we have modeled F-15C(yeah its not PFM) ...

Huh?

From the e-shop product page for the F-15C.

Professional Flight Model (PFM), developed in cooperation with F-15 pilots

Banshee · April 15, 2015

and not to drag this out but only as a question, does anyone still fly the F4J the Navy/Marine bird from Vietnam. I know they upgraded the J to the S I believe, but hell I was at El Toro in 88 with one of the last F4 squadrons, or is a matter of all or nothing with the variants

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Next DCS (US) Fixed Wing Aircraft Wish List