Flaming Cliffs 3

[GGTharos]

Are you saying that Pilot B is on an equal footing with Pilot A insofar as gameplay is concerned if we assume 2 Virtual Pilots of a similar skill-set? In other words, FC2/3 pilot has no advantage whatsoever over the DCS pilot?

 

I can answer this one: The FC2/3 pilot will have an FM advantage is some narrow corners of the fight. He won't have equipment advantages. In fact, he'll likely be getting to look/shoot second simply because the guy in the DCS F-15C can go to VS mode on the radar and pick him up further away ... not to mention the absolute mayhem that a DCS level TEWS will cause ;)

[FLANKERATOR]

Flew the F-15C in FC and Flew the F-16C in Open Falcon (version with most advanced avionics), I did not notice any difference in term of workload or difficulty level when it comes to actual combat with HOTAS.

I can even say that some features in OF like TMS and DMS do help a lot during actual combat. Such features are not implemented in FC and you have to work with the radar more "manually" which is harder!

[159th_Viper]

In fact, he'll likely be getting to look/shoot second simply because the guy in the DCS F-15C can go to VS mode on the radar and pick him up further away ...

 

 

... not to mention the absolute mayhem that a DCS level TEWS will cause ;)

 

 

I can even say that some features in OF like TMS and DMS do help a lot during actual combat. Such features are not implemented in FC and you have to work with the radar more "manually" which is harder!

 

 

3 very good reasons to keep the two SIMS well apart then........:D

[Laud]

You might pine for the old nostalgic days of 'zomg this is how you really had to fly' but real pilots - real combat pilots at least - don't want any of of that. They don't want to think about their engines stalling if they move the throttle too fast, they don't want to think about over-g'ing, exceeding the AoA limit, or fighting adverse yaw. They don't want /any/ of this. They want to be able to fight the plane, not worrying flying the plane while fighting.

 

Sure they don't want to! The less they have to the more they can focus on killing the guy who is trying to kill them.

 

But in the end they have to care about all this stuff! And it's one of the reasons why they pick the best they can get for the job, as there are many things to consider while flying and fighting the aircraft. Be it boring stuff like rules and limits of ATC or general flight rules, up to airframe limits to g-stress, or the engine limits you mentioned. Most here know the list could be continued with a lot more points...

 

I personally simply like to simulate some of this stuff as well as blowing things up. Thats what I try to say.

 

But I agree: A-A combat will most likely suck until we have two opponent-type aircraft in DCS to fight PvP. No doubt...

[FLANKERATOR]

But I agree: A-A combat will most likely suck until we have two opponent-type aircraft in DCS to fight PvP. No doubt...

 

One big reason to keep FC alive until then, and avoid segmenting the community....

 

Almost everyone can learn how to operate advanced avionics with some time and practice and it becomes a second nature with repetition.

 

On the other hand, it takes way more to be proficient in PvP environment, this struggle is the real "hard-core"ness.

 

Having DCS world filled with fighter modules is the perfect choice and the ultimate dream at the moment but until then, we need to keep the PvP arena ALIVE!

[104th_Crunch]

I don't think currently if FC2 is made compatible with DCS:Ka-50/A-10C that the differences in modelling between these will mater much. Since DCS currently features 2 A2G craft, there is no real direct PvP fighting. So that means the A2A will remain the same as it is FC2 now! Nothing will change.

 

When DCS:US Fixed Wing Fighter® comes out, then these arguments become more valid. I for one won't be loading any FC2 fighters on my PC when that comes out anyway.

[TheMoose]

If it has built in TSSAA & HDR support, and hopefully a 64bit exec, then I'm all in. Count me in ED.

 

I know still not official. But one can dream....;) :thumbup:

 

However I wish as well that the KA50 would have TSSAA & HDR support as well, true again a 64 bit exec. That would satisfy my OS appetite :D

 

Cheers

[44th_Rooster]

Sorry for the late reaction to your post, but I rarely visit here much anymore... :noexpression: At any rate, your retort that in DCS it takes all your concentration to do some task, which shows its "hard-core"ness is still rather short-sighted.

 

I agree 100% that it takes -you- 100% effort to perform some task while trying to fly the jet, etc. However, you fail to realize that REAL pilots don't usually get task saturated by doing things that they've trained for and practiced many times, so as to build those habit patterns and thusly are able to actually fly, chew gum, lock a target, continue visual lookout, and talk on the radio, all without appearing to have a helmet fire going on at the same time.

 

You should also agree, that it takes the generic, well-trained, real life combat pilot, a lot less than 100% effort to perform tasks that take the average simmer to the end of his wits. Granted, it takes 100% effort for any real pilot to do certain tasks AND maintain SA AND wrangle his/her wingmen AND avoid surface-to-air threats AND coordinate on two different radios at the same time. We all get maxed out from time-to-time.

 

However, with proper training, habit patterns, threat study, brevity, experience, etc. that task saturation point becomes something experienced with less frequency for a real pilot than your standard sim pilot.

 

I had SUPT, IFF, F-15 B-course, Continuation training, a couple of Cope Thunders, a few Red Flags, and FWS. My level of task saturation is probably modeled well by a FC2 aircraft and all its simplicity. If you didn't have to flick all those pretty switches and worry about doing all your procedures correctly in your hog, then you'd probably have the same level of task saturation that an experienced hog pilot would have.

 

Hard core is how you fly and fight, and train. It's possible to do hard core even in a simple sim such as FC2. It's made harder by inaccuracies inherent in the design, but it's still possible to approximate MODERN AIR COMBAT, despite these inaccuracies and balanced game play paradigms built into the program.

DITTO...

[Cali]

Sorry for the late reaction to your post, but I rarely visit here much anymore... :noexpression: At any rate, your retort that in DCS it takes all your concentration to do some task, which shows its "hard-core"ness is still rather short-sighted.

 

I agree 100% that it takes -you- 100% effort to perform some task while trying to fly the jet, etc. However, you fail to realize that REAL pilots don't usually get task saturated by doing things that they've trained for and practiced many times, so as to build those habit patterns and thusly are able to actually fly, chew gum, lock a target, continue visual lookout, and talk on the radio, all without appearing to have a helmet fire going on at the same time.

 

You should also agree, that it takes the generic, well-trained, real life combat pilot, a lot less than 100% effort to perform tasks that take the average simmer to the end of his wits. Granted, it takes 100% effort for any real pilot to do certain tasks AND maintain SA AND wrangle his/her wingmen AND avoid surface-to-air threats AND coordinate on two different radios at the same time. We all get maxed out from time-to-time.

 

However, with proper training, habit patterns, threat study, brevity, experience, etc. that task saturation point becomes something experienced with less frequency for a real pilot than your standard sim pilot.

 

I had SUPT, IFF, F-15 B-course, Continuation training, a couple of Cope Thunders, a few Red Flags, and FWS. My level of task saturation is probably modeled well by a FC2 aircraft and all its simplicity. If you didn't have to flick all those pretty switches and worry about doing all your procedures correctly in your hog, then you'd probably have the same level of task saturation that an experienced hog pilot would have.

 

Hard core is how you fly and fight, and train. It's possible to do hard core even in a simple sim such as FC2. It's made harder by inaccuracies inherent in the design, but it's still possible to approximate MODERN AIR COMBAT, despite these inaccuracies and balanced game play paradigms built into the program.

 

 

Just adding a little to your post Rhen. I think the Hardcore guys are just too caught up in the clickable pit. So they think just cause they have that makes them hardcore flight simmers. Maybe they don't really understand the many hours real pilots put into flying simulators, reading/studying books :book:/flim etc... actually flying the jet. We don't get paid to fly this sim/game, it's not our life on the line. If we crash or get shot down we can just press refly, they can't. F4 raised the bar and kept it raised for quite some time. Just because you can push the buttons in the pit instead of the keyboard doesn't mean you are hardcore. It doesn't change anything, it is the same thing. Instead of clicking the button in the pit, you are pressing a key or combo of keys. The AFM would surely be a great thing to have for all the flyable aircraft. It would be really nice to have and feel the G's that some of these crazy people try to pull online :D If that was the case, we'd see blackouts all over the place and all the time....cause we aren't trained for that stuff. learning to control g's and getting use to them takes training and actually pulling them. :joystick:

 

Comms, most people don't even get on them, let alone use 2 at the same time. There have been times were I have been on 3sqn ventrilo and 104th TS and it get's crazy having people talk and you are trying to figure out who is who. Good thing I have a 3rd montior that I use get to put vent and ts on it.

 

Training, I know every squad has their own training plan. but how many are dedicated to training 4-5 days a week and 1 day of actually hoping in a server (private or public) and flying a planned mission? I mean with planned routes, bingos, AOR and ROE's? with back-up's and maybe even hitting the tanker? As much as I like training with my squadmates, I love flying in a public server so much more.

 

I just wanted to add to what Rhen was saying, we have a fun game we fly. It's not real, but we try to simulate real....to a point.

[MoGas]

Sorry for the late reaction to your post, but I rarely visit here much anymore... :noexpression: At any rate, your retort that in DCS it takes all your concentration to do some task, which shows its "hard-core"ness is still rather short-sighted.

 

I agree 100% that it takes -you- 100% effort to perform some task while trying to fly the jet, etc. However, you fail to realize that REAL pilots don't usually get task saturated by doing things that they've trained for and practiced many times, so as to build those habit patterns and thusly are able to actually fly, chew gum, lock a target, continue visual lookout, and talk on the radio, all without appearing to have a helmet fire going on at the same time.

 

You should also agree, that it takes the generic, well-trained, real life combat pilot, a lot less than 100% effort to perform tasks that take the average simmer to the end of his wits. Granted, it takes 100% effort for any real pilot to do certain tasks AND maintain SA AND wrangle his/her wingmen AND avoid surface-to-air threats AND coordinate on two different radios at the same time. We all get maxed out from time-to-time.

 

However, with proper training, habit patterns, threat study, brevity, experience, etc. that task saturation point becomes something experienced with less frequency for a real pilot than your standard sim pilot.

 

I had SUPT, IFF, F-15 B-course, Continuation training, a couple of Cope Thunders, a few Red Flags, and FWS. My level of task saturation is probably modeled well by a FC2 aircraft and all its simplicity. If you didn't have to flick all those pretty switches and worry about doing all your procedures correctly in your hog, then you'd probably have the same level of task saturation that an experienced hog pilot would have.

 

Hard core is how you fly and fight, and train. It's possible to do hard core even in a simple sim such as FC2. It's made harder by inaccuracies inherent in the design, but it's still possible to approximate MODERN AIR COMBAT, despite these inaccuracies and balanced game play paradigms built into the program.

 

Just adding a little to your post Rhen. I think the Hardcore guys are just too caught up in the clickable pit. So they think just cause they have that makes them hardcore flight simmers. Maybe they don't really understand the many hours real pilots put into flying simulators, reading/studying books :book:/flim etc... actually flying the jet. We don't get paid to fly this sim/game, it's not our life on the line. If we crash or get shot down we can just press refly, they can't. F4 raised the bar and kept it raised for quite some time. Just because you can push the buttons in the pit instead of the keyboard doesn't mean you are hardcore. It doesn't change anything, it is the same thing. Instead of clicking the button in the pit, you are pressing a key or combo of keys. The AFM would surely be a great thing to have for all the flyable aircraft. It would be really nice to have and feel the G's that some of these crazy people try to pull online :D If that was the case, we'd see blackouts all over the place and all the time....cause we aren't trained for that stuff. learning to control g's and getting use to them takes training and actually pulling them. :joystick:

 

Comms, most people don't even get on them, let alone use 2 at the same time. There have been times were I have been on 3sqn ventrilo and 104th TS and it get's crazy having people talk and you are trying to figure out who is who. Good thing I have a 3rd montior that I use get to put vent and ts on it.

 

Training, I know every squad has their own training plan. but how many are dedicated to training 4-5 days a week and 1 day of actually hoping in a server (private or public) and flying a planned mission? I mean with planned routes, bingos, AOR and ROE's? with back-up's and maybe even hitting the tanker? As much as I like training with my squadmates, I love flying in a public server so much more.

 

I just wanted to add to what Rhen was saying, we have a fun game we fly. It's not real, but we try to simulate real....to a point.

 

Second that...:)

[JimMack]

Excellent post Rhen, wish I could rep you more. Hopefully the "Hardcore" guys will finally understand this.

 

Agreed, excellent post by Rhen.

[EtherealN]

The difference from FC2 to DCS is the combination of the system depth and the AFM and the resulting limits you have to consider before acting.

 

Since we don't have a DCS:FastMover yet, let's consider the following two scenarios:

1 - I fly FC:A-10A and attack a group of tanks guarded by Strelas.

2 - I fly DCS:A-10C and attack the same group of tanks guarded by Strelas.

 

Now, what extra "system depth" do I have to consider in DCS during the combat phase of this? I have easier and more precise control over my countermeasures as well as my jammer. And I have much easier control over my Mavs thanks to all the wonderful things you can do with SPI's, markpoints etcetera.

 

Effectively, the only "system depth" I need to consider during combat is the things that make my life easier, not harder. And note that you correctly stated "you have to consider before acting". This correctly indicates two options that the DCS pilot has that is not there for the FC pilot:

 

1 - He can ignore his systems and all the advantages they give and just attack FC-style, as if he was flying an FC2 A-10C.

2 - He can set up preior to attack such that his workload during attack is reduced and his SA is kept high.

 

Also a lot of you seem to be 90% focused on killing something or somebody.

 

A lot of who?

 

Fact is that these are combat aircraft. "Killing something or somebody" is what they do, and it's during combat that the pilot is being tested. You're not going to get yourself a helmet fire just cruising around and Angels 25. But even there, all those extra things that the DCS pilot has compared to the FC pilot will only make things easier thanks to the TAD and CDU. In DCS I can do with precision what I could only approximate in FC, and that makes things easier.

 

I enjoy the possibility of coming closer to a real combat pilots work with 70% flying the aircraft, navigate, manage your systems and 30% weapon employment. This is the reason why I have never touched FC2 again since the BETA-Release of the A-10C. It's because of the overall experience and the possibilitie to use a lot (really a lot!) RL documents and procedures.

 

Quite exactly so. In FC2 you cannot do a lot of things that make the real pilot's workload easier. You can in DCS. Thus, for a lot of things, your life as a pilot in DCS is easier than your life as a pilot in FC2. Sure, you have to learn to flip a few switches, but that's easy enough.

 

But the big thing that applies to both - that of fighting as an effective unit applies to both simulators identically. No amount of flipping switches and "RL documents and procedures" will make you a good warfighter. It might make you a good lonewolf, but working as a team is extremely difficult. Though of course, the existance of the TAD and SADL ensures that, again, it's a lot easier in DCS:A-10C than in FC2.

 

Looking at A-A combat exclusively, the pvp part will most likely not be sufficiently compensated by the AI. That's something I agree with completely. But everything else is so much more fun with a DCS aircraft compared to a FC2 aircraft.

 

Oh, I agree it's more fun. But since there's currently no DCS:F-15C, DCS:Su-25, DCS:MiG-29, DCS:Su-27, DCS:Su-33... ... ...

 

I hope you get my point now, as I felt a bit misunderstood, reading your answers to my previous post.

 

Tbh, I think I'm still either misunderstanding you or just completely disagreeing with your interpretation of the situation. :P

[Kuky]

look, hardcore or not hardcore I have to say difference between DCS A-10C and FC2 A-10A is huge... you actually have to know all the systems to start her up... you have to know what sequence/procedure you need in order to fire your weapon... you have to fly bit better also because of much better FM... there is only thing that makes them the same and that is inablity of the virtual pilot to feel the G... cause if he did many would fly differently... especially in high performance fighter aircraft.

 

So this is why I do agree that being hardcore in DCS does have some merit... you simply need to know lot more stuff and all of it is part of things real pilot needs to know also. Argument of how much percentage real pilot needs to do this or that is completely irrelevant... if you train more like they do it would take you same virtually, but again things are only lot more simplified virtually because of lack of G's you'd feel.

 

We are not trying to simulate how easy the real pilot would fly the thing... but actual procedures, provided you have same trainers and time dedicated to it and same level of competence you can reach their level in this respect.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Kuky

[Kuky]

I'm gonna add also one comparison... if you drive a manual car... and are a good driver you can say you're not really thinking about how you need to press the clutch, change the gear etc etc... you consider it second nature and percentage of your brain required to do this is very low... but you put new person who's never driven a manual, let alone a car he will need time to practice and master what comes to you second nature... this is why you can't say "real pilots don't need to think about this so why do I have to simulate it?" in this case... if you had a racing sim would you want to drive virtually with auto clutch/gear or would you enable it so you actually have to use it lile you would in real car?

 

See my point?

[EtherealN]

As a complete OT - manual is somehow special? That's the standard here. :P

 

Anyways, my point is that clickable cockpit or not, the hard part will always be the things outside the cockpit. Keeping your SA up, planning and executing your attacks properly, coordinating well with wingman and other elements and so on. These things you can learn with either product, and you can fail or succeed equally at it in either product.

 

Basically, in my opinion, being "hardcore" can mean many things, but I think the most applicable one in the context of a combat flight simulator is how you train, how you fly, and how you integrate into your flight.

 

However, one thing that might have an effect is that since you really do have to study a bit to even get airborne in DCS, there might be a little bit of a filter of sorts on who plays it and thus also who you end up meeting online. Since FC is easier to "get flying" in (both literally and metaphorically) there might be a slight slant towards "arcade" in FC flyers as an average. But averages don't define what can be done, and does not remove the fact that you can be very "hardcore" with FC2 as well - and many are!

 

Put it like this: having fully functional radios in FSX won't help you in the slightest if you don't know how to properly communicate. Not having radios in FSX isn't a disaster either - you get on TS and have a virtual ATC and you can be "hardcore" about that anyhow. Being hardcore or not is all about personal attitude and dedication, and very little about which product one is using. (Though I suspect it might be difficult to "play it hardcore" with HAWX... :P )

[Laud]

Tbh, I think I'm still either misunderstanding you or just completely disagreeing with your interpretation of the situation. :P

 

Uhm... yah... I think I still can't describe my point... :helpsmilie:

 

Last try:

 

1.) I'm considering myself as hardcore flying DCS as I did the years I flew LO/FC1/2. I don't see a change in attitude by switching the simulation.

 

2.) I don't call one of the both worlds better, harder or more hardcore. I just say, that the DCS aircraft and the engine provide me an environment that give me some more immersion. I simply have more fun with DCS than with FC. That's all. Not judging in quality or skill-requirement.

 

3.) I like the switch-flipping. But I don't say it makes me a better virtual pilot.

 

Kuky also had some good points in his two posts, which go the same direction.

 

Get me now??? :cry:

[EtherealN]

Get me now??? :cry:

 

Ah, yup, I totally get you now, and totally agree. :)

Thanks for being patient with me. :)

[JimMack]

Concerning pilot workload and training. For those who may not be aware, there is an excellent TV series called JETSTREAM. It follows the training of Canadian F18C pilots.

It is one of the best that I have viewed, and lessons are applicable to this debate.

[Steel Jaw]

Excellent post Rhen, wish I could rep you more. Hopefully the "Hardcore" guys will finally understand this.

 

Whatever gets you to sleep at night. ;)

 

Myself, been with computer flight simming since circa 1985.

 

I fully realize that I come off as a complete a-hole, but got to call it the way I see it. I should also add, that outside of this forum, many folks agree with me.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Mower

[Steel Jaw]

...one thing that might have an effect is that since you really do have to study a bit to even get airborne in DCS, there might be a little bit of a filter of sorts on who plays it and thus also who you end up meeting online. Since FC is easier to "get flying" in (both literally and metaphorically) there might be a slight slant towards "arcade" in FC flyers as an average.

 

Agreed.

[GGTharos]

... they also drop out of the sky quickly when met with the 'other' 5%.

[Boberro]

Whatever who likes FC3 or not, the big majority want FC3. This is the fact.

[Steel Jaw]

Whatever who likes FC3 or not, the big majority want FC3. This is the fact.

 

"Big majority" of what or whom?

 

I doubt the majority of A10C fliers care one way or the other about FC.

 

I will give 50 who dont from my online squad.

[MoGas]

"Big majority" of what or whom?

 

I doubt the majority of A10C fliers care one way or the other about FC.

 

I will give 50 who dont from my online squad.

 

If you think, those handfull forum users, who posted in this topic, are the only ones, who ask for a FC3 then you are rong again....And dont, look only in the english part of the forum, take a look on the russian part too.....MiG's and SU's forever kind of thing...you dont need to ask around very long...;)

 

btw. what is youre Sqn name? I see it right you have 50 members?

[Steel Jaw]

what is youre Sqn name? I see it right you have 50 members?

 

I removed my sig banners to be able to speak more freely.

 

So I shant reveal them.

 

However they are a large collection of folks who have no interest in lite weight sims. Not a majority of the community to be sure by a sizable number who agree with my point of view. The point being that many reasonable people share my viewpoint.