SAM Triangulation

[Bushmanni]

I do this triangulation by flying towards the SAM radar and using TGP to create a markpoint directly ahead of me far away by boresighting TGP and then slewing down or up to just close enough of horizon to get some kind of range reading. The exact routine is to line up to the radar, create a overhead markpoint and one with TGP, turn left or right 90-135 degrees depending how close you think you are to the radar and get some distance from the radar and previous markpoint then turn towards the radar again and create the second set of markpoints. This way I can get the markpoints created very fast and with minimal heads down work with CDU. You can use markpoints for flight plan so it's very quick job to get it done.

[Hamblue]

You could also use trig to figure it out.

Put the target on the tick mark on one side so you are at 90 degrees and fly at a steady speed. (say 200 mph) When the target moves back 10 more degrees mark the time and note the distance traveled. If it took 2 minutes you moved 6.7 miles. (200 mph / 60 mins =3.333 miles per minute)

 

Your target will be just under the 6.7 miles at the current bearing.

 

Explained

Since you started on your 90 you have the first leg of the triangle.

Your traveled leg is the adjacent leg. (6.7 miles)

The 10 degrees traveled is your angle.

 

The formula for the cosine of the angle is Adjacent over Hypotenuse

 

We know 2 parts. (Angle 10 degrees and adjacent distance 6.7)

Using your calculator enter 10 and hit cos. You will find it to be .984

This means that the adjacent distance divided by the hypotenuse is .984.

 

You can do the algebra and find that the answer is 6.7/.984 or 6.8 miles.

It's so close the marging of error isn't worth it. Just use the 6.7 miles.

 

By the way this only works because the target is stationary.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Hamblue

[autogyro]

copy that, thx for the reply i'll give it a shot.. have you had any luck with the head on spiral maneuver? I know in BMS (I know diff plane diff sim) you could go head on and when you get a launch you could barrel roll around the missile, the theory is to the missile your changing direction of flight and it is always trying to fly a lead pursuit and it will run out of energy. Not sure if the a-10 just isn't fast enough to do that or it was modeled incorrectly in BMS.

 

I have successfully used that to avoid 2 missiles fired in quick succession. I didn't even know the second was trailing the first as I was to busy avoiding the first one, but saw it last minute and luckily it missed me as I pulled around sharply. Still have the tacview video of that.

[awdrgyjo]

I do this triangulation by flying towards the SAM radar and using TGP to create a markpoint directly ahead of me far away by boresighting TGP and then slewing down or up to just close enough of horizon to get some kind of range reading. The exact routine is to line up to the radar, create a overhead markpoint and one with TGP, turn left or right 90-135 degrees depending how close you think you are to the radar and get some distance from the radar and previous markpoint then turn towards the radar again and create the second set of markpoints. This way I can get the markpoints created very fast and with minimal heads down work with CDU. You can use markpoints for flight plan so it's very quick job to get it done.

can you explain how you turn the markpoints into a flightplan, thanks

[Bushmanni]

can you explain how you turn the markpoints into a flightplan, thanks

 

Just like with any other waypoints. I put the letter of the markpoint on the scratchpad and press the add waypoint button on the CDU and there it goes.

[Hamblue]

If you can fly in a straight line for a few minutes why would you go through the trouble of triangulation?

[SGT Coyle]

can you explain how you turn the markpoints into a flightplan, thanks

 

Check this out:

[Supersheep]

Here's a video about the procedure I made a few weeks ago, it also shows how accurate the method can be. I didn't use the HSI at all (would have been way easier), but worked all the numbers in my head... And sorry for 362100, brainfart :D

 

On the FSF forums, we discussed different flight patterns than a quarter-circle around the max radar range like the one I performed (putting the radar on my 3 o'clock two times) and found multiple variations, each being useful in its way.

 

Why haven't I seen this thread earlier? That would have saved me so much time figuring out how to do it. Below, I put some comments into your good description.

 

 

Super-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by ashcanpete

 

So I tried to triangulate the position of several different SAM positions using the RWR and I found that it was pretty accurate. You could probably do it several ways, but the method I used was:

 

1. When I first get painted by radar, fly so it lines up with a tick on the RWR. Usually I'd beam it or put it 135 degrees back (45 degrees back from beam). Also I guess you could fly straight away. It doesn't matter as long as the letter/number in the RWR symbol lines up exactly with a tick on RWR (don't fly right at it and get shot down).

 

2. Then I just find the same tick around the HSI and note the bearing, while at the same time hitting the "Mk" (create overhead mark point) button on the UFC. (lets call this Mark A)

Super: Good idea, better than to memorize the numbers

 

3. On the CDU, I then created an new offset from that markpoint about 100 miles in the direction of the SAM (from the HSI). This will be called MSN0xx. (for this example lets call it MSN006)

 

4. Next, I flew around the SAM until I got painted from a different angle, and again noted the exact bearing by comparing the RWR to the HSI, and I created a markpoint at that spot. (Mark B)

Super: Having the second one at an angle of 90 deg to the first shoud give the max accuracy, but other angels work just as good

 

5. Created another offset from the second markpoint in the second direction for about 100 miles. (MSN007)

 

6. Built a flightplan using the following waypoints: A, MSN006, B, MSN007.

Super: Renaming the points in the order you need them can aid you the first time you do this, but is not required in any way

 

7. There should be lines connecting all your waypoints on the TAD now. In the center the two big lines should cross. This is where the SAM is.

 

8. Placed a markpoint where the lines crossed on TAD (TMS right short, Mark C).

Super: EXP mode works good here

 

9. Added Mark C to flightplan and slewed TGP to steerpoint (or set Mark C as SPI and slave all to SPI).

 

10. Find SAM (usually it was pretty darn close to Mark C).

Super: Yep, it is.

 

 

So I dunno if this is helpful to anyone (thank you, a year later xD!), or if anyone has a better (faster) way to implement this idea. Also, I was curious if anyone knows if this is ever done IRL? (maybe in a different aircraft with a better RWR and a computer thats set up for it?) Anyway, I found this to be pretty useful for finding SAMs if you don't have any SEAD to call in and you can't get the SAM position from your wingman's superhuman vision.

[awdrgyjo]

Check this out:

Thankyou, thats appreciated.

Edited October 1, 2012 by awdrgyjo
no S

[awdrgyjo]

Just like with any other waypoints. I put the letter of the markpoint on the scratchpad and press the add waypoint button on the CDU and there it goes.

Thanks.

[Echo38]

You mean you fly the A-10C and never do a ground attack? Now that's a weird one ...

 

Yep! I'm a dogfighter.

[Blaze1]

Also, I was curious if anyone knows if this is ever done IRL? (maybe in a different aircraft with a better RWR and a computer thats set up for it?) Anyway, I found this to be pretty useful for finding SAMs if you don't have any SEAD to call in and you can't get the SAM position from your wingman's superhuman vision.

 

Yes that's correct. Your standard tactical fighter/attack aircraft, e.g F-15, F/A-18, AV-8B, A-10 etc cannot perform this task with any real precision. Your standard RWR is designed to have a high (near 100%) detection capability/probability of intercept, but they suffer from poor direction finding. Dedicated ESM/ES and SEAD aircraft have special systems that use various techniques such as interferometry to provide very precise angle on signal. From this triangulation can be accomplished. In the past (Vietnam), aircraft such as the A-6 Intruder could use the AGM-45 Shrike (it's seeker) to triangulate the position of a threat. I don't believe it was particularly accurate, but basically allowed the crew to determine when the offending site was within range of a Shrike launch.

[Blaze1]

That maneuver is very unrealistic. Modern RL missiles would not fall for that. I hope that once the missile flight model and seeker logic are updated, the sim will account for that.

 

In real life there is the 'Last Ditch Manoeuvre' for missile evasion, which is similar to a barrel roll but involves a great degree heading change, so like a barrel roll on steroids. :)

[PFunk1606688187]

In real life there is the 'Last Ditch Manoeuvre' for missile evasion, which is similar to a barrel roll but involves a great degree heading change, so like a barrel roll on steroids. :)

 

I believe the term "last ditch" implies how largely ineffective it is. Its the aerobatic equivalent to using the palm of your hand to randomly press buttons hoping one will have the effect you're looking for.

[Blaze1]

I believe the term "last ditch" implies how largely ineffective it is. Its the aerobatic equivalent to using the palm of your hand to randomly press buttons hoping one will have the effect you're looking for.

Hi P*Funk

 

The last ditch manoeuvre was is an effective defence against certain missiles. I believe the term was coined because it is the last tactic available to an aircrew before they are hit. Usually the initial tactics used are to keep the missiles at arms length using ECM, expendables, terrain, manoeuvre etc. If this fails then the last ditch is the final line of defence. Strike Eagle by Swallwood has some very good descriptions and accounts of this during Desert Storm.

 

Thanks

[Wayc00lio]

Cracking videos! Really help me out!

[cheap charlie]

Yep! I'm a dogfighter.

 

lol very cool

[LiveBait]

hey Echo, how did you change your hud in that video?

[WildBillKelsoe]

we need to know key information:

1- what is the maximum detection range of RWR? 160 miles?

2- how near should a threat be relative to aircraft in order to be inside the inner circle? even though I know its not a matter of proximity.

[Supersheep]

I don't quite understand what you mean or need that for:

1) depends on the radar, obviously, and not on the RWR.

For 2) you already said why that question doesn't make sense.

[ralfidude]

You guys are making it too hard on yourselves, I just do this:

 

[Supersheep]

That's the way to go. I keep saying that my above video is only academically-useful and a good training too use the CDU, but hardly something you'd pull off in combat. People don't want to hear that, though.

[Yurgon]

You guys are making it too hard on yourselves, I just do this:

 

 

Huh, that makes it look pretty easy. :thumbup:

[ralfidude]

So much luck is involved though

[Kaktus29]

very nice use of triangulation, of course much more can be done with proper "equipment".. but for now its as best as one can do.. as DCS progresses-i hope-more can be added in the EW warfare and this will force the SAMs to become much more mobile and intelligent as well to keep up with the changes from above..

 

all in all, good stuff..