Question about Manual Countermeasures.

[Mosley]

The other day I was flying a mission and was being painted by a Shilka which is normally no biggie, but when the strela launched on me I couldnt switch to a different countermeasures program because I was in semi mode.

 

My question is If I switch it to manual mode and a strela launches and I pick a flare program that is not the one the computer would pick for a strela does it have any effect, or does the missle not bite on the flares and still hit me? My thinking was If I stuck in the lower programs and changed them on my own will it still help even tho it might not be at the right interval?

[Eddie]

Flares are flares(in the case of DCS), it doesn't matter what program is used to deploy them. Auto and Semi are fine for certain situations, but ultimately manual offers much more control and flexibilty.

 

As a pilot you can do a much better job than the CMS ever could. The programs the system will pick in semi or auto modes are often questionable, and rarely the best option. In fact the default countermeasures profiles are not great at all, due to their one for all nature, rather than being tailored to a specific threat.

[Mosley]

Flares are flares(in the case of DCS), it doesn't matter what program is used to deploy them. Auto and Semi are fine for certain situations, but ultimately manual offers much more control and flexibilty.

 

As a pilot you can do a much better job than the CMS ever could. The programs the system will pick in semi or auto modes are often questionable, and rarely the best option. In fact the default countermeasures profiles are not great at all, due to their one for all nature, rather than being tailored to a specific threat.

 

Does it matter which program you use? (Obviously it needs to be flares) Or if you drop more flares does it lead to more potential targets for the missile thus increasing my odds?

 

How about the same question with a radar based missile? Or whatever type that needs chaff?

 

Do more countermeasures equal better chances? Maybe i can pretend to be a c130 and emergency jettison all my flares and really confuse a strela.

[LostOblivion]

The counterargument to manually selecting a program is the time it takes for the pilot to do so, in which case it is sometimes more effective to start popping flares early in semi- or auto-modes, instead of popping them too late. There is no point starting the perfect CMS program if the igla has already hit you. ;)

[Aries]

For Strela's (SA-13) I usually use programs J (single flare) or K (double flare) in manual mode, try to fly away from the missile changing altitude, preferably from high to low and spawn a shitload of flares the second you are in position of leaving them between your plane and the threat... whilst still changing course and altitude... Cause the flare itself won't catch the missiles eye everytime if you continue flying in same or slightly changed direction and pop flares...

Of course, sometimes flares don't help ya no matter how hard you try, and I love it that way... randomness and uncertainess... :unsure:

[KLR Rico]

Of course, sometimes flares don't help ya no matter how hard you try, and I love it that way... randomness and uncertainess... :unsure:

 

No matter how prepared I am for the hit, I still jump with surprise when the SAM's hit me. :D

 

Today I got hit when I was stuck in chaff program selected by semi... :doh:

[TurboHog]

I always use manual programs. I also edit the programs myself depending on the mission and threaths. I usually use 004 / 002 / 0.50 / 05

[hassata]

Also (from another thread, can't remember which now):

 

"You can customize the expendables profiles by editing the AN_ALE40V_params.lua file in the \scripts\aircrafts\A-10C\Cockpit\AN_ALE40V\device. Just open in Notepad++ and change the values on each program."

[Supersheep]

#22:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=81531&page=3

 

 

Super-

[baltic_dragon]

I think I posted this before, but it is a really good vid on avoiding the SAMs:

 

ak6EgzDwiGs

 

(I can't embed it into the post, when using the YouTube button I just get a white square.. help anyone?)

Edited February 7, 2012 by 159th_Viper
Video embedded

[Tailgate]

The flight manual wasn't very clear on this, but does the Jammer continue to operate automatically (selecting programs) in CMS manual mode?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Tailgate

[Eddie]

The flight manual wasn't very clear on this, but does the Jammer continue to operate automatically in CMS manual mode?

 

No, you need to select the correct program using the CMSC and enable it with CMS-Z when required.

[Tailgate]

Think I'll stick with Semi mode. :D

 

Btw, I just realized that I'm missing the button depress to manually turn on the Jammer. I'm using a CH Hotas, so I have to figure out another button or Hat switch to use.

[Lobo_63]

If manually activating the jammer, either in semi or manual mode, is it better to turn on the jammer prior to getting painted or to wait until you are painted, and then turn it on? Is there a downside to using the jammer? Why not just turn it on with fence check and let it run? Does the use of the jammer give away your position to AI forces?

 

Thanks!

[Speed]

If manually activating the jammer, either in semi or manual mode, is it better to turn on the jammer prior to getting painted or to wait until you are painted, and then turn it on? Is there a downside to using the jammer? Why not just turn it on with fence check and let it run? Does the use of the jammer give away your position to AI forces?

 

Thanks!

 

Once activated, the jammer only runs like 15 secs. Then if you want it to run another 15 sec, you have to activate it again.

[Tailgate]

That's the downside of manual mode as I see it. I'd rather be flying the plane and ID'ing the threats rather than fumbling around for the correct jamming programs. I'd rather trust the system to handle it.

[Eddie]

Once activated, the jammer only runs like 15 secs. Then if you want it to run another 15 sec, you have to activate it again.

 

Not quite true. It'll keep running as long as it has a threat to jam. As soon as it successfully defeats a threat and causes it to drop lock it returns to standby.

 

The only time the SPJ will return to standby after a set time is when there is no threat for the system to jam in the first place.

[Frostiken]

Personally I find the implementation of the expendable countermeasures and the programming and dispensing of them to be unbelievably unwieldy and terrible. Are pilots seriously expected to sit there and manually scroll through programs? Do you seriously need 26 permutations of dispensing two types of things with only the serious options of doing so quickly, slowly, and a lot or a little? (To be fair, there are a few different buckets you can plug in there, but I doubt they'd ever mix-and-match more than two types).

 

Unless we're seriously missing something here in the sim, it's so awful I would almost consider it a liability. Why isn't there the ability to program two dispense programs directly to the HOTAS? Who the crap thought this was a good idea? D:

 

My kingdom for replacing the light switch on the throttle with a flappy-paddle that automatically fires program A when pushed back and B when pushed forward - bam, I could then put my two favorite dispense programs right there and have immediate access to both.

 

Engineers. Sheesh.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Frostiken

[Speed]

Not quite true. It'll keep running as long as it has a threat to jam. As soon as it successfully defeats a threat and causes it to drop lock it returns to standby.

 

The only time the SPJ will return to standby after a set time is when there is no threat for the system to jam in the first place.

 

Ah, thanks for the correction! Makes sense.

 

I spend a lot of time pre-emptively jamming. Like if I see an SA-6 pop up and I think I may be dangerously close to it, then I will start running the jammer (on SAM1 in this example). So I end up having to press the jammer over and over and over, kinda annoying. I wish I could just tell it to automatically jam anything it sees locking me up, but still allow myself to stay in manual countermeasures mode.

 

Even so, many radars don't have any special signature that they are tracking you... does the jammer (in game) do nothing against these threats, or against radars that are simply in some kind of search mode? Is repeatedly spamming the CMS z-axis truly helpful against these threats? For example, say I just want to confuse some airborne radar that is in RWS or TWS mode... does my jammer help at all? When I have a 29 spike and I put my jammer in AIR and start jamming... does that mess with their TWS/RWS radar returns for me?

 

I'm not asking about RL, I am just interested in it works in game. Does the jammer only ever help you if you are locked up?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Speed

[Frostiken]

By the way, you wouldn't want your jammer to be jamming non-stop. First of all, it makes you a fat target. RF is RF, and spraying it out everywhere is going to make you glow like an EM lighthouse.

 

Secondly, jamming suites, especially Northrop Grumann ones, are NOTORIOUSLY hungry for juice, run EXTREMELY hot and don't exactly have long lives. Spending an entire sortie jamming will almost certainly burn up the TWTs or cause other issues. Pushing it to the limits and forcing it to jam non-stop would probably kill it before your sortie even ended. Just to give you some perspective here, the AN/ALQ-135 ICMS system in the F-15 takes 90% of ECS cooling air provided by both engines to properly cool when operating, and you'll be lucky to get more than a dozen flight-hours out of it before a part has failed.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Frostiken

[Eddie]

........Does the jammer only ever help you if you are locked up?

 

Yes. If something isn't tracking you, the ECM can't break the track.

 

In the case of a RADAR in search mode, trying to jam it is likely to make you more visible than you would otherwise be.

 

Also, what Frostiken said. Self protection jammers are exactly that, they are there to protect your aircraft by defending against specific threats, just like consumeable countermeasures. They are not designed for continuous 'noise' jamming. That's what dedicated EW aircraft are for.

 

The modelleling of ECM in previous sims has a lot to answer for when it comes to people's misconceptions of what ECM actually does. ;)

[Frostiken]

Hey Eddie, can you clarify regarding what you're talking in relation to how it works in the sim vs. how it works in real life? It's hard to tell from what POV you're talking about. I can talk real-life EW theory all day (well, not really :)), but in the end it's only what the sim actually does that matters to most people. Even I'm getting a little confused here as to whether you're referring to just real-life, or if that's how the sim works.

[Eddie]

Mostly in reference to the sim, and previous sims (i.e. F4/FC). But with a little bit of sim vs RL comparison thrown in for info, where I think it might be of interest to some.