Air Combat Training School (ACTS)

[WarthogSmurf]

I'm sure quite a few will be a bit shocked when the Hawk comes along and they have to learn real navigation, let alone how to fly and land without a HUD. Or perform an instrument depature/approach. :D

 

Well that I see that as a challenge. But now You get to see my screw up from the backseat in realtime :D

[SUBS17]

If that's advanced I would have expected a more realistic weapons load as well as having to use proper delivery methods.

 

CCIP and CCRP are realistic delivery methods or do you use manual lol. The loadout is not that bad but I could ask Sabre what he thinks of this. Points to note of that mission though: G awareness including G warm up, range control coms, MOA, ramp start. G warm up I suspect is modelled in DCS in the G modelling.:thumbup:

Also the actual movie shows the wrong way of doing it in a lot of areas which is why its called "knock it off" which is what is said at the end of the movie because the pilot failed. (by flying under 500ft)The challenge of those missions is to make it back and do everything correctly.:pilotfly:

[SUBS17]

It works pretty damn well for us in the 476th. ;) It's not "fast" by the standards of many out there, but then good training never will be.

 

If I can teach someone who has never even heard of SEMs or a LALD, DB, HADB, HATR, LRS, TTS, Wedge, Fighting Wing, etc., how to do all of it to a combat ready standard in 9-10 training flights totalling around 30 hours I wouldn't say it's at all impractical.

 

It's all about how you teach and present the material. Of course you can only teach someone who wants to learn.

 

I'm sure missions like the one you posted are entertaining and well made from a mission design point of view. But I wouldn't say the actual training delivered was all that great. But such is the limitation of scripted offline training.

 

Well for me it depends on who you are assessing so in some cases you have a totally new pilot and have to train them up in the basics like NAV, A/A and A/G. Or you can get a new pilot who is a veteran and already can do all of the above. In some cases a pilot being ready to be assigned to a Squadron(and participate in a war) can be just 1 flight with all 3 aspects you can get an idea of their experience in how they do the mission. Time is also the problem so if you actually have the time to train people like that then all well and good.

[Snoopy]

CCIP and CCRP are realistic delivery methods or do you use manual lol. The loadout is not that bad but I could ask Sabre what he thinks of this. Points to note of that mission though: G awareness including G warm up, range control coms, MOA, ramp start. G warm up I suspect is modelled in DCS in the G modelling.:thumbup:

Also the actual movie shows the wrong way of doing it in a lot of areas which is why its called "knock it off" which is what is said at the end of the movie because the pilot failed. (by flying under 500ft)The challenge of those missions is to make it back and do everything correctly.:pilotfly:

 

CCIP and CCRP aren't delivery methods but a tool to use in delivery methods. Delivery methods are Visual Level Delivery (VLD), Low Angle Low Drag (LALD), Dive Bomb (DB), High Altitude Dive Bomb (HADB), High Altitude Release Bomb (HARB), Medium Altitude Toss (MAT), and High Altitude Tactical Rocket (HATR) to name a few.

 

Advanced training should require a proper SEM as well and I didn't see any of that in the video either.

 

The loudout isn't that bad? Thanks for the laugh. If I showed that loudout to our pilots at Moody they would laugh their a$$ off with how unrealistic that is. If for no other reason than the gross weight is higher than they are allowed to even taxi with let alone take off with.

 

Anyways, it's obvious you're not going to listen to Eddie or I so I'll leave it at this....

Edited June 9, 2013 by Snoopy

[Evilducky]

I'm sure quite a few will be a bit shocked when the Hawk comes along and they have to learn real navigation, let alone how to fly and land without a HUD. Or perform an instrument depature/approach. :D

 

 

Should be just fine.. been flying the good old Su-25 lately =P

[Eddie]

CCIP and CCRP are realistic delivery methods or do you use manual lol.

 

CCIP and CCRP are aiming methods, not delivery methods.

 

Should be just fine.. been flying the good old Su-25 lately =P

 

Good for you. Too many simmers who fly modern jet sims are overly reliant on their HUD or other non essential equipment (TGP on the A-10C being a prime example), once people break the bad habits and really learn how to "fly" and fight their aircraft it's amazing how much more effective they become.

 

The simple art of flying, be it VFR or IFR, or even basic aircraft handling is something that people should spend much more time focusing on. Rather than going straight to weapon systems.

 

Based on the syllabus so far, I think ACTS will do wonders for a lot of people out there, providing they stick with it. Learning the "basics" first really does make the tactical aspects easier to handle and you more effective.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Eddie

[Evilducky]

Good for you. Too many simmers who fly modern jet sims are overly reliant on their HUD or other non essential equipment (TGP on the A-10C being a prime example), once people break the bad habits and really learn how to "fly" and fight their aircraft it's amazing how much more effective they become.

 

The simple art of flying, be it VFR or IFR, or even basic aircraft handling is something that people should spend much more time focusing on. Rather than going straight to weapon systems.

 

Based on the syllabus so far, I think ACTS will do wonders for a lot of people out there, providing they stick with it. Learning the "basics" first really does make the tactical aspects easier to handle and you more effective.

 

I agree. :) I could still use a lot of learning myself, but for the basic flights and fights without all the bells and whistles, I got that down. More advanced stuff in flying without all the gadgets to do so is still all new to me and would like to get some training in this area. :smartass:

[SUBS17]

CCIP and CCRP aren't delivery methods but a tool to use in delivery methods. Delivery methods are Visual Level Delivery (VLD), Low Angle Low Drag (LALD), Dive Bomb (DB), High Altitude Dive Bomb (HADB), High Altitude Release Bomb (HARB), Medium Altitude Toss (MAT), and High Altitude Tactical Rocket (HATR) to name a few.

 

Advanced training should require a proper SEM as well and I didn't see any of that in the video either.

 

The loudout isn't that bad? Thanks for the laugh. If I showed that loudout to our pilots at Moody they would laugh their a$$ off with how unrealistic that is. If for no other reason than the gross weight is higher than they are allowed to even taxi with let alone take off with.

 

Anyways, it's obvious you're not going to listen to Eddie or I so I'll leave it at this....

 

THE VIDEO IS CALLED "KNOCK IT OFF" FOR A REASON.:doh:

(I guess you did not see the end then....lol)

 

For the simple reason that Sabres goal is to make his training missions as realistic as possible I will pass on your issue with the load out.:thumbup:

 

Visual Level Delivery (VLD), Low Angle Low Drag (LALD), Dive Bomb (DB), High Altitude Dive Bomb (HADB), High Altitude Release Bomb (HARB), Medium Altitude Toss (MAT), and High Altitude Tactical Rocket (HATR)

 

:doh::doh::doh:.....:lol:

[Snoopy]

:doh::doh::doh:.....:lol:

 

That's funny because that's how I felt after watching that video:music_whistling:

[SUBS17]

CCIP and CCRP are aiming methods, not delivery methods.

 

 

 

Good for you. Too many simmers who fly modern jet sims are overly reliant on their HUD or other non essential equipment (TGP on the A-10C being a prime example), once people break the bad habits and really learn how to "fly" and fight their aircraft it's amazing how much more effective they become.

 

The simple art of flying, be it VFR or IFR, or even basic aircraft handling is something that people should spend much more time focusing on. Rather than going straight to weapon systems.

 

Based on the syllabus so far, I think ACTS will do wonders for a lot of people out there, providing they stick with it. Learning the "basics" first really does make the tactical aspects easier to handle and you more effective.

 

Can you show us an example of ACTs then in a video and perhaps use an aircraft that's already available?

 

CCIP and CCRP are aiming methods, not delivery methods.

 

:doh::lol:

 

Good for you. Too many simmers who fly modern jet sims are overly reliant on their HUD or other non essential equipment (TGP on the A-10C being a prime example), once people break the bad habits and really learn how to "fly" and fight their aircraft it's amazing how much more effective they become.

 

 

You know I'm not one to complain when flying sims where a Hud or TGP is modelled but there is a lot wrong with this statement. Neither of those are essential equipment if you are flying a cessna or an air liner but both are absolutely critical for operating a combat aircraft. You really do need a HUD for CCIP delivery unless you are using a back up sight(F-16) and doing manual delivery methods HADB or LADB. But then you are working off tables to get the bomb on the tgt(dangerously inaccurate and definitely not advisable for danger close). I'm not against MAN delivery being taught as its a backup but the HUD is easier to teach CCIP/CCRP than using MAN. Anyway looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with BTW does the Hawk use MAN or does it have a CCIP sight like the A-10A?

[SUBS17]

That's funny because that's how I felt after watching that video:music_whistling:

 

If you looked closely I did a lot wrong in that video not just the delivery but also the flight itself. The video shows the good stuff that's in there but the mistake of the pilot during the straff. "Knock it off" is described in the video it can be called by anyone in the event of a breach of safety which is what I the pilot did. In the other BFT flights technically I would have been failed earlier because you have a strict flight path/time/speed. In the advanced missions it is a bit more relaxed as the focus is on the other stuff such as the G warm up(which I suspect is modelled in DCS) and hitting those tgts. So knock it off isn't me flying on a good day.:D Its me mucking around after just getting the mission pack. And its a movie that ends with me the pilot failing the mission because I did make mistakes in both CCIP delivery(did not follow the marksmanship principles:D)and breaking the 500ft hard deck.(note he gave me 1 warning). I wonder how some of these triggers can be applied in a MP mission setup because there is a lot of potential there for 2 seat MP.:thumbup:

[Sabre-TLA]

Question about the AAT08 loadout?

 

Here is what the mission editor says about the weight:

 

Max: 46476 lbs

 

Fuel Weight @60%: 6651 lbs

Empty 24967 lbs

Weapons 12564 lbs

Total 44183 lbs

95%

 

I'm not an A-10 pilot nor crew chief (never claimed to be either) but I do want the missions to be realistic and also playable and enjoyable. They can also be improved over time.

 

Maybe the game shouldn't allow unrealistic loadouts?

 

[aaron886]

Make your missions realistically. The capability is there... what more do you need?

[Ells228]

I do like Sabre's missions very much but for ACTS like I've said before, which is an Air Combat Training School, is more about tuition in principals of flight and combat based on the RAF fast jet programme. Yes some missions can be designed to assist in the syllabus with the right triggers and text/voice overs similar to Sabre's missions but the focus is more on personal tuition and flying in "classes" together.

There will be a vast array of multimedia content; reading, watching, listening, planning, flying, etc. all to take into account personality styles (lookup NLP) and the best way to learn for individuals.

Also at the same time not making it hard enough that you want to drop out.

Of course all of this will be based on the Hawk and it's capabilities based on real world parameters (except using DCS current maps of course).

 

As tou know I'm open to all opinions and comments and lets each have respect for each others comments here please, even if they make you laugh ;)

 

Cheers,

Chris.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Ells228

[Sharpe_95]

Hi Ells - is there any word on when ACTS is likely to start and will there be a 'sign up' sheet? - don't want to miss it.

 

Hope you're well mate,

Sharpe

[Ells228]

Hey mate, doing well thanks. Hope you are?

 

I'm putting the infrastructure in place late this year and looking to enrol candidates just as we release the Hawk, for a start of ACTS early next year.

 

Cheers,

C

[Lord_Pyro]

Maybe Nevada will be ready by then :D

 

To learn things like real pilot do is a great thing because flying as it works, everybody can do. But to perform an attack inside some restricting limitations (for safety for example) many don't even consider. Yesterday i found my self knifefighting with some buks and osas on real knifesedge distances becaus i had to much fear to build some more distance because i was outside their min launch range. I dont know how i even landed there but soon after i dropped all my gbu12 (SJett). The sams constantly fired on my lead who was far away at some altitude. That made it fairly easy for me to spott the launchers and engage them with my 20+10mm but this is nothing a real pilot would/ should do...

[Ells228]

Sounds like a good mission Pyro.

We don't want to take out the fun of flying of course and ACTS will be for those that want a little bit more than just blowing shizzle up.

 

Of course it can also be used on any aircraft and when we have Tiffy available we will add in a WSO conversion course to the programme.

[Lord_Pyro]

I would call it "first time a10 combatmission in months" :P

I even used the Su27 more in the atg role lately. Or the su25 (legacy). They new 3d pits are quite convincing you know? XD

[Ells228]

Haha yeah I k ow, I've been blasting around in the F-15 instead of the A-10 ;)

[SUBS17]

Maybe the game shouldn't allow unrealistic loadouts?

 

 

I wonder about that myself since you would expect some sort of penalty like the SU25 if you fly with that overloaded it is very obvious the weight affecting the flight characteristics. With the A-10C with that load out it is hardly noticeable. BTW you could use training bombs in the practice missions before such a check ride. I'm not against loading the bombs up so long as its a realistic loadout. I notice with USAF and USnavy they fly with very few stores a lot not really bombing up as such with max weapons. But having the max weapons capability should be allowed in the sim it sort of reminds me of the Superhornet 14 missile threads. People comment that its unrealistic yet it has that capability. IRL would you use that load most likely no but in a Dynamic Campaign situation like in Falcon in a sim most likely yes particularly at the start.:thumbup:

[SUBS17]

I do like Sabre's missions very much but for ACTS like I've said before, which is an Air Combat Training School, is more about tuition in principals of flight and combat based on the RAF fast jet programme. Yes some missions can be designed to assist in the syllabus with the right triggers and text/voice overs similar to Sabre's missions but the focus is more on personal tuition and flying in "classes" together.

There will be a vast array of multimedia content; reading, watching, listening, planning, flying, etc. all to take into account personality styles (lookup NLP) and the best way to learn for individuals.

Also at the same time not making it hard enough that you want to drop out.

Of course all of this will be based on the Hawk and it's capabilities based on real world parameters (except using DCS current maps of course).

 

As tou know I'm open to all opinions and comments and lets each have respect for each others comments here please, even if they make you laugh ;)

 

Cheers,

Chris.

 

So what do you do when 1000 students show up(or people who do not have the internet or live in different time zones), maybe some sort of SP practice missions might help in such a case. I regard Sabres BFT and AAT campaigns as check rides than tutorials but you still learn a lot from them and it has a lot of immersion.:thumbup:

Some other things that are handy are the boxes that can be placed in the air like whats in some of FSXs missions for pilots to fly through. I found this feature has potential in possibly both MP and SP missions to guide the player on the correct path. (it features in the P51D campaign) I haven't checked the ME yet as to how to place these but they are quite handy.

[Ells228]

They will go through a selection process Subs with real life evaluation.

I know you love Sabre's missions, as do I, but I want this to be personal tuition, not flying pre-set missions.

 

Think of it like candidate selection.

[Lord_Pyro]

But then it would be best if you can provide different tutors for different languages. Most students will be a lot more confident learning things (and showing up online @ ts) if they can speak their native language. Have you taken this into account. Else u might end up with britisch and american participants only.So you might want to look for some instructors speaking the majorlanguages like japaneese, russian, spanish, german, italian, french etc (i know i missed a lot, maybe i DID this on purpose!) and just gets their briefing by you (like an instructortraining) and afterwards perform their own trainings. Would also addd the effect that some eastrussian guys wouldnt have to stay up late in the night to fly with european instructors (not to mention the fact that they wouldnt probably lern much that late :P)

[Ells228]

Yep, all has been taken into account.

Don't worry guys I know what I'm doing....most of the time lol

 

I do this as my day job ;)

 

We set up the basis of the infrastructure of ACTS when we pitched it to the RAF a few years ago.

We will likely start with English and then move to other languages as time moves on.

 

Selection of the IP's (Instructor Pilots) will start later this year. This will be based on real life experience.

Also some VFS' have also shown interest, so ACTS will be adaptable enough to add to their own training syllabus'

 

Cheers,

C.