DCS SA342 Gazelle Project

[zerO_crash]

Ka50 is of different calibre, shouldn`t even be compared :smartass: Kamov was designed to be operated by one, everything tailored to that requirement (among others), whilst Gazelle was more of a home garage mod :music_whistling:

[Pat01]

Yes, that's exactly what the gazelle's target would think before blowing up :)

[borchi_2b]

I have the feeling that people misunderstand the word "scout / light weight"

 

There is no reason to compare a KA50 with a SA342M.

They have different tasks and about piloting, a scout is not attacking direct, they hit and run, so you wait for targets to cross a fire line or approach them slowly and try to outsneak them.

 

Uh1 is even a different deal then KA50 or SA342M.

 

All the comparison is worth only a little, cause what is lacking the ka50 you will find in the gazelle, what the gazelle is lacking you will find in the ka50 or others.

 

about thew copilot position and flying there is nothing bad to it. in reality it is possible too. A gazelle does not fight on the move, that is what we got as info, although they could, but it would minimise the effectivnes to 10% - 15% so no need to do so. In a battlefield you have to think smart or die.

[shagrat]

Ka50 is of different calibre, shouldn`t even be compared :smartass: Kamov was designed to be operated by one, everything tailored to that requirement (among others), whilst Gazelle was more of a home garage mod :music_whistling:

Ka-50 was also work overload for a single pilot, so they came up with the Ka-52 to drastically enhance the chance of survival in a modern combat environment. :smartass:

 

While heads down on the Shkval you're a sitting duck, that is why all other attack helicopters are two seaters.

One mission commander/weapons operator, one pilot responsible for flying and defending the helicopter.

[zerO_crash]

Well tbh, after all these years with the shark (since BS1 for me), you do learn what to do and what not to, plus some research from pilot`s diaries etc... my rule is 90/10, 90% looking outside/10% looking inside the cockpit. Regardless, there is a bit of workload, sure, but I would argue that although it will be always easier for 2 heads to maintain such a machine, it still isn`t overloading 1. Don`t we all love heli`s cause there is more that can go wrong than in fixed-wings? :lol:

 

As for comparisons between Ka50/Gazelle/Bo105, this is exactly the reason I said that it`s pointless to compare them, tasking =/=, therefore I would never go in with a gazelle as I do with a Ka50 :thumbup:

 

Btw thx for a the work you are doing with Gazelle/Bo105, can`t wait to get my hands on ´em :v:

[emg]

FishDoctor wasn't asking anyone to compare the Gazelle with the Ka-50, he was asking if you could fire HOT or TOW while the helicopter is moving...

 

ED forums and its digressions... :megalol:

[borchi_2b]

any attack helicopter can fire it weapon on the move, but it is not done in practical terms if there is no particular need to it

[FishDoctor]

:D

emg, you are absolutly right! ;)

I never compared those choppers. It is like comparing an Actros and a Mini.

What I wanted to say is that it is possible to hover AND aim. Even if it is not like real but it is possible.

[shagrat]

Well tbh, after all these years with the shark (since BS1 for me), you do learn what to do and what not to, plus some research from pilot`s diaries etc... my rule is 90/10, 90% looking outside/10% looking inside the cockpit. Regardless, there is a bit of workload, sure, but I would argue that although it will be always easier for 2 heads to maintain such a machine, it still isn`t overloading 1. Don`t we all love heli`s cause there is more that can go wrong than in fixed-wings?

 

As for comparisons between Ka50/Gazelle/Bo105, this is exactly the reason I said that it`s pointless to compare them, tasking =/=, therefore I would never go in with a gazelle as I do with a Ka50

 

Btw thx for a the work you are doing with Gazelle/Bo105, can`t wait to get my hands on ´em :v:

The overload referred to real life.

 

In DCS it is simple, as you may resurrect and try again.

 

In real life the 10% heads down may be the 10% that let you miss a MANPAD launching take a second to adjust and kills you...

From what I've heard about real Ka-50 engagements and the pilot's feedback, it must be one hell of a stressful job, and during tests, they often missed important details, some potential threats.

This ultimately led to the decision to pursue the Ka-52 Alligator and Mi-28N Havoc to enhance especially the defensive capabilities.

Have a pilot monitoring the threats while the mission commander takes care about choosing weapons, acquiring targets, firing and guiding.

 

The Ka-50 is a hell of a ride to fly and the single seat aspect, makes it perfect for a simulation, but it also degrades its survivability on a real world battlefield, compared to a two-seater.

 

EDIT: What I want to point out, the Gazelle with its dual seat capability represents a typical scout/light attack helicopter unlike the Ka-50, which is very, very special.

Edited February 7, 2016 by shagrat

[Pat01]

FishDoctor,

 

Yes, you can aim and shoot while in auto hover and while flying straight too with this module.

I should add, only the copilot can shoot for what has been simulated.

Hope it answers your question.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Pat01

[zerO_crash]

Shagrat, I respect your view, but there a a couple of things:

 

I do agree with the 10% enough to get shot down, but then that could apply for any aircraft/vehicle/soldier, that ain`t really the point, as this helicopter has armament that is geared towards long range, that it technically should stay out of the range of most of the things that could do it bad, therefore its all a matter of tactics applied. I`m sure you agree that your stress level as a military pilot is low when you engage from e.g. 8-9km as compared to say 4...

 

Now, taking for instance Second Chechen War into account, the helicopters performance was stamped as splendid. It was at that point used in conjunction with a Ka29 that did forward reconnaissance. Never read/heard any report or Ka50 pilot claiming "too stressfull".

 

The only reason I suspect they added a second Co-pilot/gunner was primarily so they could extend the helicopters application envelope. Thinking here recce only, or the initial task it was meant for, namely command distribution among 4x mi24`s/28`s. At such a point I would agree that having a bud in your cockpit is great, but I seriously doubt it matters if your mission is straight forward, hunt down enemy, attack A, etc...

 

Don`t want to derail thread but well, shit happens :P

 

Edit: may I ask btw, is it still planned to release Gazelle 1st quarter 2016 as was initially planned?

Edited February 7, 2016 by zerO_crash

[dimitriov]

IMO, that's very simple : "Well, let's find a new way for my flight plan in my Ka-50" Let's look at the Abris, hands off from the cyclic. Then to the PVI... I hope that nobody is aiming at me :megalol:

 

With two pilots, there still is someone looking around.

 

Nicolas

[dimitriov]

Anyway, here you've got the kind of way of working in Gazelle (even if it's a Bo ;) ) [ame]

[/ame]

[shagrat]

Shagrat, I respect your view, but there a a couple of things:

 

I do agree with the 10% enough to get shot down, but then that could apply for any aircraft/vehicle/soldier, that ain`t really the point, as this helicopter has armament that is geared towards long range, that it technically should stay out of the range of most of the things that could do it bad, therefore its all a matter of tactics applied. I`m sure you agree that your stress level as a military pilot is low when you engage from e.g. 8-9km as compared to say 4...

 

Now, taking for instance Second Chechen War into account, the helicopters performance was stamped as splendid. It was at that point used in conjunction with a Ka29 that did forward reconnaissance. Never read/heard any report or Ka50 pilot claiming "too stressfull".

 

The only reason I suspect they added a second Co-pilot/gunner was primarily so they could extend the helicopters application envelope. Thinking here recce only, or the initial task it was meant for, namely command distribution among 4x mi24`s/28`s. At such a point I would agree that having a bud in your cockpit is great, but I seriously doubt it matters if your mission is straight forward, hunt down enemy, attack A, etc...

 

IMO, that's very simple : "Well, let's find a new way for my flight plan in my Ka-50" Let's look at the Abris, hands off from the cyclic. Then to the PVI... I hope that nobody is aiming at me :megalol:

 

With two pilots, there still is someone looking around.

 

Nicolas

 

Or trying to fight in a forrest area, a city or mountains with crevices and steep obstacles.

The workload was compared to a bomber pilot, which is right, but a bomber pilot usually has the ingress to prepare and stays high above the threat envelope until on target.

Compared to a Ka-50 that is going in low, possibly fast, requires high concentration from the pilot right away.

Especially, as you are constantly in a threat envelope. So focus on flying or preparing the attack? Stop and expose myself to acquire targets not knowing if the targets ahead are the only threat?

 

I'm not saying single seat helicopters don't work.

 

I simply mean there is a reason why the Ka-50 is the only single seat attack-heli in the world.

After reading quite a few books about British Apache helicopters and how the team works together, I see the Gazelle, BO-105 and other dual seaters as an interesting challenge to fly alone, but a tremendous benefit if multiseat multiplayer works.

 

To distribute the tasks, is a huge benefit and a definitive step forward in realism.

 

Not that the Ka-50 is bad or not up to the task.

[zerO_crash]

The point that Dimitriov points out is rather irrelevant, as checking your ABRIS or PVI800 is something that is being checked like a speed gauge in your car, you don`t need to look at it for hours/minutes. And if there are some changes to your flight plan, and you need to revise your route or tasking of similar magnitude, then you simply fly out of the contested area.

 

As for the rest you mention Shagrat, sure, I agree, but then again, if the pilot knows his heli well (and the rank needed to fly it grants it), then you should have no problems. Don`t misunderstand, I do not wish to cavil, but one would need to specifically ask one of the real world Ka50 pilots how they feel about this sort of multitasking (flying while performing weapons management, tactics, etc...) As for the upgrade to Ka52, well sure, that has indeed done alot in the aspect of making the platform even more capable, with multiple extra systems (for instance inclusion of radar in Ka52K) and even more advanced cockpit suite. Other than that, I of course agree that 2 heads will have an advantage in certain situations, but you have to remember that there have been cases where pilot/co-pilot misunderstanding (due to stress and inappropriate language used) have lead to "unwanted" situations. And indeed there are more things that speak in favor of duals, so sure, that`s the best solution.

 

As for the video you linked, Dimitriov, yes there a many videos that show precisely this type of flying, however it ain`t the only one. You will have to adjust your approaches accordingly as terrain changes, for instance flatland with no places to hide. There are many ways to deal with it, and it certainly requires a different approach than Ka50, or any gunship for that matter, which makes it even more interesting for me.

 

On a second note, for artillery directing, I read the earlier post about creating flags that the would be relayed so artillery could home in on these coords and as such, deliver a strike. Would any of you devs mind explaining that a little bit more? Interested about the practical way this works in DCS. Is it some sort of datalink that will transmit coordinates to arty, or do you have to use comms for relaying it? etc....

[dimitriov]

I guess it's some kind of home made cockpit action, just a trigger which allows you to call in artillery on the position you've got in sight.

[Ohgr]

Here's a few screenshots I took for the community. We're almost there!! :pilotfly:

[Justificus]

Here's a few screenshots I took for the community. We're almost there!! :pilotfly:

 

Sweet! Come on, hurry up and take my money!!! ;)

[SilentGun]

DCS SA342 Gazelle Project

 

Absolutely beautiful! keep up the good work!

 

 

 

 

-SilentGun

[Silver_Dragon]

great pics....... The first pic (from cockpit) not show some type of dusk over the frontal window? new atmospheric effect?

[shagrat]

great pics....... The first pic (from cockpit) not show some type of dusk over the frontal window? new atmospheric effect?

My guess is fog set in weather options.

2000m or more visibility, so it cumulates to thicker haze in the distance... Gives a nice morning mist atmosphere. ;)

[Ohgr]

My guess is fog set in weather options.

2000m or more visibility, so it cumulates to thicker haze in the distance... Gives a nice morning mist atmosphere. ;)

 

Correct you are. 5000/1000m :thumbup:

[hannibal]

thanks for validating my reason for even making a a heli chair..

 

CANT WAIT!

[hannibal]

any attack helicopter can fire it weapon on the move, but it is not done in practical terms if there is no particular need to it

 

her borchi..

 

how is your set up going?

[Yurgon]

Haha, love that RU skin! Soon we can fly Hunter/Killer teams with Gazelle/Black Shark :D