Tracers

[Reaper26]

Can we get tracers like this:

[Mike Busutil]

Nice!

[WildBillKelsoe]

what game is this? looks nice de nouveau..

[joey45]

Il-2 I think...

[Yo-Yo]

Can we get tracers like this:

 

Did you ever fire tracers yourself?

[sobek]

Those look like they were made by industrial light & magic.

[joey45]

I've fired tracers:smartass:....... from an SA80....:pilotfly:

[Reaper26]

Did you ever fire tracers yourself?

 

You guys do realize the tracers for the P-51 and who knows what else are borked right?

[joey45]

Seeing tracers with your eyes and seeing them on camera may look completely different...

[Rusty_M]

Tracer debates never seem to go anywhere. It's the constant problem between one person's perception vs another person's perception vs film footage, where, as has been said, a camera deals with a fast-moving light source very differently from the human eye.

[PeterP]

Why -

Does the optical laws work in such a other way for a camera lens as for your eye? - so that things like clearly visibility smoke tracks on film become invisible when looking at them wit the naked eye...

 

Those look like they were made by industrial light & magic.

Those maybe too.

 

 

Edit:

And to answer the OP question:

Yes it is - it can be done via editing shaders like it is done in il2.

Edited October 21, 2012 by PeterP

[SmokeyTheLung]

Did you ever fire tracers yourself?

 

I have many times. Including some time on Ma Deuce.

What we have right now in p-51 looks cool but doesn't remind me of reality too much

[sobek]

Why -

Does the optical laws work in such a other way for a camera lens as for your eye?

 

No, but camera films and CCDs have different spectral sensitivity than the human eye, additionally, CCDs have shutter times, etc. You know about this, so why the question?

 

Those maybe too.

That's not at all what the tracers in the vid look like. :) I don't know about you, but i shure don't wish to feel like i'm sitting in a X-Wing fighter.

[PeterP]

No, but camera films and CCDs have different spectral sensitivity than the human eye, additionally, CCDs have shutter times, etc. You know about this, so why the question?

Sobek , yes I know.

Because: whatever has been caught on film must be much clearer for the eye - as it is far superior in exposer and colour prediction.

So I don't let the argument work here "that camera and eye works different" .

 

 

I also don't want to sit in a X-Wing.

 

But it would be nice if ED would finally have a "standard" instead that Mustang is putting out new tracer-effects with every new version .

Edited October 21, 2012 by PeterP

[Yo-Yo]

I have many times. Including some time on Ma Deuce.

What we have right now in p-51 looks cool but doesn't remind me of reality too much

 

Ok, I think you must agree that after you fire a burst you see something like a shinig dots flying towards the target. Somebody who is situated near bullts flightpath at half way to target (I do not want to be there :) ) will see shining lines because the relative speed in their eyes is much higher.

 

You see shining balls because as you fire you see the bullets backs :) almost in one point before you.

 

Now in DCSM we see exactly the same - shining dots for the shooter and shining lines for the observer at side point of view.

 

 

last seconds of the video - from 2-55

 

P.S. I fired only 7.62 mm.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Yo-Yo

[WildBillKelsoe]

disappointed..

 

you guys had too much reefer in Moscow, that I find the tracers between 1.2.0 and 1.2.1 completely different.. I think the entire gun is tracers..

 

It IS Oinked.. WE NEED A FIX SCHOON!!!

[SmokeyTheLung]

@Yo-Yo,

You're, of course, right. And what you've done in DCS looks like a major improvement on paper.

 

Couple of things I notice:

 

I've never seen a daytime tracer bright enough appear to have the "volume" we see in DCS at the moment (doesn't mean they don't exist, I've just never seen tracers so bright personally)

 

What you mention in your post is indeed true. But you don't have to be observing the fire from a perpendicular viewpoint to see the tracer streak...in fact you can start to appreciate that more if you simply lift your head away from the sights.

 

Also, as you no doubt know, the faster a round is the more it appears to streak to the observer. Ricochets are rarely fast enough to have a well defined streak. This stands out especially in DCS right now as the tracers have almost no "streak" right out of the muzzle at their highest speed, but appear to streak after they ricochet.

 

I like the direction you guys are going in with these effects, don't get me wrong. I just think they need some tweaking.

Edited October 22, 2012 by SmokeyTheLung

[DDSSTT]

I have kept quite about this so far but, I have many years with the US Army Infantry and have fired or have seen M2's, 25mm Bushmaster from a M1a1 Brady, 5.56 Nato, 7.62 Nato, both Apache's and Cobra's engage Insurgents in Ar Ramadi, Iraq and finally A-10 during training on Fort Campbell, fire at targets or in a real combat environment. I too like where you are going with the effects but here are a couple of things I would like to point out.

 

1) The ricochet effects for the .50 is pretty close but the round also tend to "spin" / "loop" sometimes and not just "float" away from the impact. The "Streak" does slow down and it appears to be a single bright ball even in day light which you have modeled right now. The bullets seem to ricochet on every impact regardless of angle of attack, which is not always the case, normally it is only glancing or deflecting impacts where ricochets are common.

 

2) When a tracer round leaves the barrel it is traveling at its fastest velocity and looks like a straight line of light. As the round gets further away and slows down the "streak" decreases. This is one of the best examples I have found in any game and to me is the closest thing to what I have seen in real life, it is at 1:35

. In coming tracer rounds are not seen right away either, one cannot see the tracer that is fired directly at them until it is very close and passing you, (Its not fun - been there) but once you see the tracer - the old saying applies "Tracers work in both directions".

 

3) Gun smoke is a little extreme, but I have not seen a M2 fire at altitude so I cannot say if that is correct, but on the ground it is way too much.

 

4) Bullet impacts, Yes you can on occasion see flashes as the round impacts a metal surface, this is because the AP round carries a small amount of explosive change to propel the steel penetrator though the hardened object. I have not seen nor I am told you will not see this on a soft surface such as the ground because to ignite the explosive change you need Heat and Pressure from the Jacket of the bullet striking the Hard surface. Now HE rounds are a different story and the effect we see right now are closer to what the A-10 looked like in training and the AH-64's striking the concrete walls in iraq. With this said, the impact affects on the ground as nice for "eye candy" as they are, are incorrect and the amount of dust and debris each impacts kicks up, I feel is too much for a non-arid climate such as Georgia and even in Iraq the impacts where not large.

 

5) Vibration and recoil, I do not know how much a pilot in a mustang feels with the engine and other affects but I can say sitting in a HMMWV and having your gunner engaging with the .50, you can really feel the vibration, even in the steering wheel. I've mentioned this before and after seeing what PeterP was going through with the SU-25, I've left it alone but, this there a way to add it to the sim in some way? Either FFB with its own setting or visually?

 

ED, you are doing a great job and I am very glad to have been a part of the Beta. You listen to the community and are producing very good products.

[Echo38]

Somebody who is situated near bullts flightpath at half way to target (I do not want to be there :) ) will see shining lines because the relative speed in their eyes is much higher.

 

Yo-Yo, I agree with this. The problem is that, in the current version of P-51D, our tracers do not look like lines, when viewed from the side; they look like little comets or "teardrop" shapes. I've never seen real tracers look like this, in person, under any conditions. Small blobs from behind, lines from the side--that's what I've seen I.R.L. Never balls with trails.

[louisv]

Yeah, the one place you are likely to see comet style tracers is on the cover of DC comics.

[nick10]

yes. And the rounds are still exploding on the ground like 20mm canon.

[maturin]

I have kept quite about this so far but, I have many years with the US Army Infantry and have fired or have seen M2's, 25mm Bushmaster from a M1a1 Brady, 5.56 Nato, 7.62 Nato, both Apache's and Cobra's engage Insurgents in Ar Ramadi, Iraq and finally A-10 during training on Fort Campbell, fire at targets or in a real combat environment. I too like where you are going with the effects but here are a couple of things I would like to point out.

 

1) The ricochet effects for the .50 is pretty close but the round also tend to "spin" / "loop" sometimes and not just "float" away from the impact. The "Streak" does slow down and it appears to be a single bright ball even in day light which you have modeled right now. The bullets seem to ricochet on every impact regardless of angle of attack, which is not always the case, normally it is only glancing or deflecting impacts where ricochets are common.

 

2) When a tracer round leaves the barrel it is traveling at its fastest velocity and looks like a straight line of light. As the round gets further away and slows down the "streak" decreases. This is one of the best examples I have found in any game and to me is the closest thing to what I have seen in real life, it is at 1:35

. In coming tracer rounds are not seen right away either, one cannot see the tracer that is fired directly at them until it is very close and passing you, (Its not fun - been there) but once you see the tracer - the old saying applies "Tracers work in both directions".

 

3) Gun smoke is a little extreme, but I have not seen a M2 fire at altitude so I cannot say if that is correct, but on the ground it is way too much.

 

4) Bullet impacts, Yes you can on occasion see flashes as the round impacts a metal surface, this is because the AP round carries a small amount of explosive change to propel the steel penetrator though the hardened object. I have not seen nor I am told you will not see this on a soft surface such as the ground because to ignite the explosive change you need Heat and Pressure from the Jacket of the bullet striking the Hard surface. Now HE rounds are a different story and the effect we see right now are closer to what the A-10 looked like in training and the AH-64's striking the concrete walls in iraq. With this said, the impact affects on the ground as nice for "eye candy" as they are, are incorrect and the amount of dust and debris each impacts kicks up, I feel is too much for a non-arid climate such as Georgia and even in Iraq the impacts where not large.

 

5) Vibration and recoil, I do not know how much a pilot in a mustang feels with the engine and other affects but I can say sitting in a HMMWV and having your gunner engaging with the .50, you can really feel the vibration, even in the steering wheel. I've mentioned this before and after seeing what PeterP was going through with the SU-25, I've left it alone but, this there a way to add it to the sim in some way? Either FFB with its own setting or visually?

 

ED, you are doing a great job and I am very glad to have been a part of the Beta. You listen to the community and are producing very good products.

Listen to this guy. Not only does it sound like he's seen the stuff firsthand, but it makes good sense and conforms to almost everything I've found by researching the subject as an internet armchair ballistics expert.

[nick10]

Watch this. P-47 strafing. The only deceptive thing is the mounted camera is shaking on its mount because of the vibration of the 8 .50 cals. It gives the impression the tracers squiggle a bit - which is an illusion.

 

[DDSSTT]

Listen to this guy. Not only does it sound like he's seen the stuff firsthand, but it makes good sense and conforms to almost everything I've found by researching the subject as an internet armchair ballistics expert.

 

Thank you. :thumbup:

[SUBS17]

I have many times. Including some time on Ma Deuce.

What we have right now in p-51 looks cool but doesn't remind me of reality too much

 

Does the bullet trajectory look right to you because IMO it is too low maybe the muzzle velocity for those bullets is wrong or something because they are very low.(to low to really hit anything if you are in a turn)