Western biased .

[LordLobs]

I think most OPFOR-fans feel left out because of the poor quality of some russian planes when FC3-Beta came out (Su-33, Su-27) and because BLUE will have four 6-DOF cockpits (A-10C, F-15C, P-51 and nex-DCS) when the next module comes out, while RED has only one (Ka-50).

 

I guess most RED-fans here would trade the AFM on the Su-25T/Su-25 for a Mig-29 or Su-27/33 with 6-DOF cockpit.

[ishtmail]

Grow up ..... you dont get a perfected simulation at all ..... how in the name of Jesus can you say that with the number of updates after the boxed product .

 

And if your not online ..... good day to you .

 

Dont get me wrong , but your out on a limb here saying its a perfect simulation my friend .

 

I realise its getting better all along .

 

Perfect = works as advertised ..... really !!!

 

Not perfect as in 'bugs free'. I already explained that bugs in a released software are NORMAL, and that bigger and more commercial-oriented gaming companies have released products with far more bugs than ED has (see any Bethesda game to date, for example, or ID's Rage, or Assassin's Creed series).

Each and every game in the history of gaming was released with bugs, and every single one of them was patched in the following months/years. Fallout 3, for example, was patched 6 times (major patch versions) since initial official release. Skyrim was patched over 14 times since release (8 major versions and several minor patch releases), all within ONE YEAR.

Lest ye forget, iPhone 4 and 5 were released with serious problems that were later fixed.

Even Mercedes A, the first one, was mass produced for the public already and later they discovered it wasn't safe (they pulled all the cars back to the factory and fixed the problems).

Even Sukhoi Su27 was already in mass production before they changed several critical design flaws.

 

Your point is thus void.

 

 

I said 'perfected' as in 'the most detailed simulation of a single aircraft in the history of man so far'.

 

 

Of course, if ED were to perfect every module to the point where it were completely bug free, people like you would go and complain about the long developer times. Basically, some people are impossible to please, you'll always find something to complain about. If it's not the bugs, it's the slow release times. If it's not the Nevada map, it's the lack of Russian planes.

 

In real world, developers need time to do stuff, choices to develop a product are made according to market research, and occasionally products do come out with bugs.

[sylkhan]

The market for mi24, mig-29, or su-27 is bigger than any western aircraft

[112th_Rossi]

I would walk barefoot across broken glass for a DCS MiG 29.

[lunaticfringe]

The market for mi24, mig-29, or su-27 is bigger than any western aircraft

 

Empirical data? Surely you can substantiate this with something greater than opinion.

 

I'm certain that something other than opinion would be of great interest to Wags and his development staff.

[Frostie]

This is what is referred to in the West as "grasping at straws"; perhaps you've heard the term used before.

 

The fact that only 300 people cared to respond to an Eastern block poll, versus over 2000 for its West counterpart, speaks volumes as to interest. Simply putting the two polls together would likely trend badly for the Eastern types, as based on the sample set you've got 1700 souls who could care less about post-Soviet hardware, and whatever overlap between the votes could only *take* from Mikoyan and Sukhoi types.

 

But those are factual statistics and trending in limited sample. Child's play versus what Eagle has at their disposal.

 

All of this banter about bias in development choices completely forgets the fact ED doesn't simply offer up polls asking for suggestions and favorites; they pay good money to have data they glean from the sales of their products, from packet sniffing, from QA/error reporting, credit card records, IP tracking, and a host of other methods, analyzed to help make their decisions for them. The data tells them where their products are selling, to what age groups, what amount of time being spent using their software, and most importantly- which aircraft are being flown the most.

 

Which is to say complaints (that are merely opinions based on circumstantial evidence) are effectively moot when it comes to the data and information they have available on the subject matter of what would sell the best for them, and what options for aircraft they have the greatest access to information for.

What a load of tripe. I don't know if you've heard of that saying before but in the western world it means BS.

 

It's clearly obvious you didn't take into account that the Eastern aircraft poll has been running for 4 months while the Western poll has been running for 5 years! Calling out 'clutching at straws' is a hell of a shot in the dark.

 

ED haven't made any polls nor did they say that the F-15 was certainly the more popular aircraft in FC2. The only message was that it was felt the F-15 was more popular, no polls, no statistics just a feeling.

 

Personally I don't think ED is biased, it just seems easier to collect data and relevant information for Western aircraft. Plus when you consider the Su-25T, Ka-50, A-10C, F-XX cycle it's surely only becomes biased when they contnue this vibe of western aircraft in the future but at the moment it's a bit of an even keel.

 

As for the 3rd party devs making 2 F-15E's that's just plain daft, one dev or the other is wasting a lot of time and resources which won't bode well for both teams, why not make a F-15C and an F-15E.

[ishtmail]

The market for mi24, mig-29, or su-27 is bigger than any western aircraft

 

Then I suppose ED's marketing team was totally in the wrong, when their market research suggested a western fixed wing fast mover would be the best course of action for ED, and ED should instead base all their future work on the opinion of a few anonymous people from a public forum, who have no factual data to support their claims?

 

I must have missed this lesson in the Marketing classes.

[ishtmail]

What a load of tripe. I don't know if you've heard of that saying before but in the western world it means BS.

 

It's clearly obvious you didn't take into account that the Eastern aircraft poll has been running for 4 months while the Western poll has been running for 5 years! Calling out 'clutching at straws' is a hell of a shot in the dark.

 

ED haven't made any polls nor did they say that the F-15 was certainly the more popular aircraft in FC2. The only message was that it was felt the F-15 was more popular, no polls, no statistics just a feeling.

 

Personally I don't think ED is biased, it just seems easier to collect data and relevant information for Western aircraft. Plus when you consider the Su-25T, Ka-50, A-10C, F-XX cycle it's surely only becomes biased when they contnue this vibe of western aircraft in the future but at the moment it's a bit of an even keel.

 

As for the 3rd party devs making 2 F-15E's that's just plain daft, one dev or the other is wasting a lot of time and resources which won't bode well for both teams, why not make a F-15C and an F-15E.

 

No, the western poll has been online since october 2010, and not from the beginning of that thread from 2007. See page 101 and 102 of that thread, where someone suggested a poll should be made (post from 2010), and a few days later someone noticed the poll running.

 

That's roughly 25 months for the Western poll and 4 months for the Eastern one.

 

301 people voted in the Eastern poll, that's about 75 people per month.

2641 people voted in the Western poll, that's about 105 people per month.

 

So, PER MONTH more people voted in the western poll.

 

Let's go to specific aircraft (winners from each separate poll)

FA-18E received 1537 votes. That's 61 votes per month.

Sukhoi Su-27SM3 received 121 votes. That's 30 votes per month.

 

So, PER MONTH, twice as many people voted for FA18E than SU27SM3.

 

 

That's hard statistical fact for ya.

[NineLine]

Perhaps a new poll is needed to see if we should make a poll about needing a new poll?

 

:pilotfly:

[Eight Ball]

Perhaps a new poll is needed to see if we should make a poll about needing a new poll?

 

:pilotfly:

 

That would be biased

 

:D

 

(...)

 

You ignored me the first time, that's ok a lot of people ignore me, but did you take a look at those polls results ?

The Mudhen, with 2.3%, is 7 out of 8.

 

But still 2 different 3rd party devs are working on it...

Edited November 27, 2012 by Eight Ball

[lunaticfringe]

It's clearly obvious you didn't take into account that the Eastern aircraft poll has been running for 4 months while the Western poll has been running for 5 years!

 

Actually, I do take that into account- as ishtmail pointed out, your time frame wrong. Further, the simple fact is that a poll of Eastern interest could have been enacted on the same day as the Western one, and nobody cared.

 

For a year and nine months, nobody cared enough to generate a poll; speaks volumes.

 

Personally I don't think ED is biased

 

Now *there* is a load of tripe; "search" blows that so far out of the water it's reaching intercontinental ballistics territory.

[NineLine]

Does this mean they are biased towards Russian Helicopters?

 

I think everyone that thinks ED is biased should pick their favorite aircraft and start researching all technical specs, testing data, etc. I think based on the aircraft you choose you will find that info for one is harder to get than another. That doesnt mean they are biased it means that they require a certain level of info and if they cant get it they wont do it. Its a pretty simple concept.

 

As an example:

 

The drawing says Mig-29 CMT and Mig-29K. This is what I assume. And you know what happens when you assume.

 

No one can make those on DCS level.

 

Was that said because they are biased against the CMT and K versions? I dont think so.

Edited November 27, 2012 by NineLine

[ishtmail]

You ignored me the first time, that's ok a lot of people ignore me, but did you take a look at those polls results ?

The Mudhen, with 2.3%, is 7 out of 8.

 

But still 2 different 3rd party devs are working on it...

This has nothing to do with ED and the claims by several people in here that DCS is 'biased' towards the west.

 

ED did not decide that those 2 3rd party devs should both make the same plane. The 3rd party developers made that (obviously silly) decision on their own. Why that was, I don't know and honestly, I don't care, as it's completely irrelevant for the discussion in here.

 

Which fighter ED will develop next is still unknown. Who's to say it won't be an FA-18?

 

Once and for all:

The criticism in this thread keeps flying towards ED, and yet everyone keeps proving their point with what aircraft 3rd party devs are making.

DCS is Eagle Dynamics product, and Eagle Dynamics is only responsible for what Eagle Dynamics does. The fact that other groups and companies are making addon planes has nothing to do with ED, except for the fact that ED created the platform for those addons.

 

Basically, this is like someone would blame Microsoft for specific planes that other devs created for FSX.

 

If people have problems with what 3rd party devs are doing (or rather, not doing), address the issues there.

[Frostie]

Actually, I do take that into account- as ishtmail pointed out, your time frame wrong. Further, the simple fact is that a poll of Eastern interest could have been enacted on the same day as the Western one, and nobody cared.

 

For a year and nine months, nobody cared enough to generate a poll; speaks volumes.

No it doesn't, these are polls made on the Western side of the forums engaged by a small portion of ED's customers, the only fact here is, comparing polls like this is meaningless.

 

Also you compared 300 votes to over 2000 this is not taking the timeline into account it's talking nonsense, ishtmail gave you the answer you never looked for.

Now *there* is a load of tripe; "search" blows that so far out of the water it's reaching intercontinental ballistics territory.

Explain, because you've lost me.

[sylkhan]

Then I suppose ED's marketing team was totally in the wrong, when their market research suggested a western fixed wing fast mover would be the best course of action for ED,

 

"their market research suggested a western fixed wing fast mover" :), ED doesn't care about polls or marketing.

 

Do you really think, "their market research" five years ago suggested to do a ka-50 :)

Please be serious.

[Steel Jaw]

Sure is a whole lotta arguing for something that was already answered: Russian paranoia and secrecy restricts info avail to make a hardcore Fast Mover of the Su27-35 series. The MiG29 is junk (frankly) so its German access is moot. Carry on.

[SkateZilla]

if the MIG29 is so garbage, why is are they using it as the platform for the MIG-35/29 OVT, and why did Russia just navalize them and sell off their Flankers to China?

[ishtmail]

"their market research suggested a western fixed wing fast mover" :), ED doesn't care about polls or marketing.

 

Do you really think, "their market research" five years ago suggested to do a ka-50 :)

Please be serious.

 

Five years ago, there was no market for DCS fidelity aircraft. I have no idea why ED chose Ka-50, but developing that bird opened an entirely new world of simulations that us PC pilots never knew before that.

Maybe ED had the Ka-50 info on hand and made it as a hobby. Maybe it was originally developed as a simulation for the russian army, like A10C was for the US.

 

In any case, before Ka50, there was no DCS-fidelity sim market. Ka-50 was a success, so ED went on with A10C, which they already had ready and just had to tweak it for consumer use. Another success.

Now they have to start from scratch with the next airplane, so it's obvious they would choose one they can get the info for and one the community is interested in.

 

 

Seriously, comparing the situation 5 years ago with today makes no sense. Today, we live in an entirely different world. In a world where FC3 seems 'poor' and 'outdated', because ED spoiled us with their DCS products. 5 years ago, FC3 would seem like the best thing ever, today it's "meh" compared to A10C.

[Steel Jaw]

if the MIG29 is so garbage, why is Russia using it as teh platform for the MIG-35/29 OVT, and why did it just navalize them and sell off their Flankers to China?

 

Lack of money. Their economy continues to be a basket case.

[sylkhan]

Five years ago, there was no market for DCS fidelity aircraft..

????

 

Seriously, comparing the situation 5 years ago with today makes no sense.

 

Sorry but it make sense.

 

Today, we live in an entirely different world. In a world where FC3 seems 'poor' and 'outdated', because ED spoiled us with their DCS products. 5 years ago, FC3 would seem like the best thing ever, today it's "meh" compared to A10C.

 

hardcore simulation exist since many many years and before DCS, but certainly you are new in the genre :)

[G-Lock91]

Hopefully come December.. It really is the end of the world. Then all of your petty toys and flight sims will be outta here..

[ishtmail]

hardcore simulation exist since many many years and before DCS, but certainly you are new in the genre :)

 

Are you saying that DCS fidelity of modern military aircraft is 'nothing special'? Are you saying that DCS isn't a giant leap forward in the simulator business?

[St3v3f]

Are you saying that DCS fidelity of modern military aircraft is 'nothing special'? Are you saying that DCS isn't a giant leap forward in the simulator business?

 

DCS is to something like the falcon series what battlefield 3 is to doom. It's the next step in an evolution. It certainly did not invent the genre.

[Silver_Dragon]

I have no idea why ED chose Ka-50

 

Do you ear something that "military contract"?

[BRooDJeRo]

Its always the same old story. Certain laws are often used not to keep something from the general public but to keep certain fightercraftdetails out of the wrong hands within political partys. This is when corruption is above an unknown x%. Loose ends means retired nuclear subs being sold to colombian and mexican drugtrafficers. Thats the other side of the whole story.