DCS:Fighter vs FC3 = imbalance?

[GGTharos]

Fast movers are more likely to have a JTIDS terminal, and it is unknown at this time if ED will model a gateway to tie in SADL and JTIDS.

[Snoopy]

Try a whole minute, and even so, so what? Fly in missions where it takes more than 5 minutes to get to the enemy airfield, problem fixed.

Better yet, learn to scramble your DCS aircraft, or ask the mission maker to hot-pit all the DCS aircraft so that your startup time is zero.

 

Good point and one most don't realize. You can simulate "alert" jets by having them "start on runway" in MP. No different than what happens we I worked alert birds while deployed in Kuwait.

 

During certain parts of the day we had 30 minutes from the moment the siren went off to having the jets airborne. The 30 minutes was so pilots could get from their location to the ACFT. We (crew chiefs and weapons troops) had the jet started and ready to hand off to the pilot when he/she arrived.

 

Exactly like "start on runway" in MP...

[NineLine]

Try a whole minute, and even so, so what? Fly in missions where it takes more than 5 minutes to get to the enemy airfield, problem fixed.

Better yet, learn to scramble your DCS aircraft, or ask the mission maker to hot-pit all the DCS aircraft so that your startup time is zero.

 

 

I would say it would be kinda cool to have the option to simulate real startup times in FC jets, surely it would be easy to add, by adding a timed delay in there somewhere... that said I know I can start the P-51 way faster manually than starting it automagically :)

[NineLine]

Good point and one most don't realize. You can simulate "alert" jets by having them "start on runway" in MP. No different than what happens we I worked alert birds while deployed in Kuwait.

 

During certain parts of the day we had 30 minutes from the moment the siren went off to having the jets airborne. The 30 minutes was so pilots could get from their location to the ACFT. We (crew chiefs and weapons troops) had the jet started and ready to hand off to the pilot when he/she arrived.

 

Exactly like "start on runway" in MP...

 

SO can we simulate this too:

 

 

Dog not necessary :)

[Jona33]

It's possible to delay TO time, I did it using triggers but it isn't simple when you have a lot of aircraft.

[SkateZilla]

DCS: Pilot

 

Simulate the Buildings, and the trip from the Ready room to the AC.

[GGTharos]

Ok, sorry, nothing against you, and try not to take offense, but this has been brought up a couple of times already and I'm going to be perfectly blunt: Dumb idea. (Don't worry, I get them too ... and I get told ;) )

 

You want FC3 guys sitting there twiddling their thumbs for 5 min becuase ... what? It was cool to add in a delay? This completely negates the whole point of the level of fidelity of that virtual aircraft. You're just boring the player.

 

I would say it would be kinda cool to have the option to simulate real startup times in FC jets, surely it would be easy to add, by adding a timed delay in there somewhere...

[NineLine]

Ok, sorry, nothing against you, and try not to take offense, but this has been brought up a couple of times already and I'm going to be perfectly blunt: Dumb idea. (Don't worry, I get them too ... and I get told ;) )

 

You want FC3 guys sitting there twiddling their thumbs for 5 min becuase ... what? It was cool to add in a delay? This completely negates the whole point of the level of fidelity of that virtual aircraft. You're just boring the player.

 

I have built a career on dumb ideas thank you very much... it was only a thought if you wanted to eliminate the discrepancy in time to airborne between FC and DCS aircraft... It could be an optional thing... like ramp vs runway starts... why bother having ramp starts then right? ;)

[GGTharos]

And I'll say again ... place enemy bases such that they taken longer than 5 min to fly to, and suddenly ramp start time becomes largely irrelevant :)

[NineLine]

And I'll say again ... place enemy bases such that they taken longer than 5 min to fly to, and suddenly ramp start time becomes largely irrelevant :)

 

While I agree many things can be fixed with ME planning, doesnt mean it always has to be the answer :smartass:, no real reason why cold start of an FC aircraft couldnt have an option for real start time... just saying... why would I want my pilots sitting waiting for that? Because I enjoy ED sims... otherwise we could go play War Thunder and start in the air and have our ammo reload in the air based on a timer...

 

It would be an "option", so you wouldnt have to use this dumb idea ;)

[GGTharos]

no real reason why cold start of an FC aircraft couldnt have an option for real start time... just saying... why would I want my pilots sitting waiting for that? Because I enjoy ED sims...

 

Yes, there are very real reasons.

 

Start with the purpose of the FC franchise. The delay is entirely pointless, there's nothing to do. It's nothing but an exercise in boredom with no actual purpose.

 

Finally, it has been tried already and while it was tolerated by a few, no one really liked it that much.

 

Hotpit the DCS planes instead.

[NineLine]

Yes, there are very real reasons.

 

Start with the purpose of the FC franchise. The delay is entirely pointless, there's nothing to do. It's nothing but an exercise in boredom with no actual purpose.

 

Finally, it has been tried already and while it was tolerated by a few, no one really liked it that much.

 

Hotpit the DCS planes instead.

 

I see purpose, specially when you are mixing FC and DCS planes in the same battlefield... but it doesnt matter, this is just a exercise in forum ping pong with no actual purpose ;)

[tspencer227]

I think a lot of the current imbalance revolves around the different tactics used between Eastern and Western forces. For example, I have yet to hop on a server that utilizes EW, GCI, or AWACS control for either side's air forces, which negates a lot of the advantage supplied by the EOS modes of the Russian birds. As I recall, a significant part of the VVS's tactics and structure for the bides modeled in-game include using ground-controlled intercept for as long as possible, to limit the warning that enemy forces would have. Without that, the F-15's with AMRAAMs have advantage over the Russian birds, even a MiG-29 with AA-12's.

[Slayer]

It's the Air quake crowd vs the hardcore crowd.

 

It will probably go the way things did when DICE tested PC players against XBOX players in Battlefield. Needless to say the XBOX people were destroyed so badly they decided against implementing cross platform multiplayer.

[GGTharos]

No, it's the crowd of crying because their ground pounder (regardless of DCS or FC origin) got destroyed by a fighter vs. the fighter crowd. That's all there is to it.

 

It's the Air quake crowd vs the hardcore crowd.

[Mandrake5]

No, it's the crowd of crying because their ground pounder (regardless of DCS or FC origin) got destroyed by a fighter vs. the fighter crowd. That's all there is to it.

 

This ^

 

What the hell is 'air quake' about bvr combat deploying A-A radar and a suite of AFM missiles? And what's so 'hardcore' about lumbering around blowing sh*t up with mavericks? Horses for courses! :thumbup:

[Exorcet]

I would say it would be kinda cool to have the option to simulate real startup times in FC jets

I have to disagree with that, as GG said it's completely boring. A DCS aircraft can take as long as it wants to start up because I'm in control and not just sitting there.

 

Also, if I'm in a server where start up time even registers in the total mission time, well I'm probably not on that server.

[Frostie]

It's amazing how flipping a few switches to start your plane suddenly makes you hardcore, if this is all it takes then i'm a hardcore chef because my microwave skills are amazing.

[sorcer3r]

It's amazing how flipping a few switches to start your plane suddenly makes you hardcore, if this is all it takes then i'm a hardcore chef because my microwave skills are amazing.

 

Thats just the beginning of beeing hardcore. :smartass: ;)

[Azraeil]

It's amazing how flipping a few switches to start your plane suddenly makes you hardcore, if this is all it takes then i'm a hardcore chef because my microwave skills are amazing.

 

No. Flying in tight formation and using Brevity code for the sake of it is hardcore. Being hardcore is all about following the procedure to the letter, only to snap a wing off pulling out of a gun run because you were to busy practicing procedure.

[Cali]

Good point and one most don't realize. You can simulate "alert" jets by having them "start on runway" in MP. No different than what happens we I worked alert birds while deployed in Kuwait.

 

During certain parts of the day we had 30 minutes from the moment the siren went off to having the jets airborne. The 30 minutes was so pilots could get from their location to the ACFT. We (crew chiefs and weapons troops) had the jet started and ready to hand off to the pilot when he/she arrived.

 

Exactly like "start on runway" in MP...

 

Our jets in Guam had 5 minutes to be airborne. The pilots stayed at the alert facility which was about 100 yards from the alert jets. That siren would go off and they'd bust out that door, still putting their flight suit on :megalol: fun times.

 

It's amazing how flipping a few switches to start your plane suddenly makes you hardcore, if this is all it takes then i'm a hardcore chef because my microwave skills are amazing.

 

You forgot about the people that wear helmets and gloves. I can cold start the BS, but I never do, why when I can press 2 buttons and it starts automatically, while I go get a snack and a drink. I'll learn how to cold start every DCS jet I buy, but not sure how many times I'll actually do it.

[statrekmike]

It's amazing how flipping a few switches to start your plane suddenly makes you hardcore, if this is all it takes then i'm a hardcore chef because my microwave skills are amazing.

 

I don't think of myself as "hardcore' but I do find that flipping those switches helps me feel immersed in the eim, it allows me to get just a little closer to understanding what it is actually like to fly A Ka-50 or a A-10C, it does not feel like a video game to me, it feels like a learning experience.

 

FC2 was boring to me, shooting missiles is all well and good but I found that once I played Black Shark and A-10C, I simply could not go back, the FC aircraft (with the exception of the SU-25) feel very dead to me.

 

I have never played with FC3 players and I doubt I will ever actually play a mission that allows FC3 aircraft since I only play with a isolated and small group (and we all dislike FC3 being part of DCS world though we know that is our personal opinions).

[Frostie]

You forgot about the people that wear helmets and gloves. I can cold start the BS, but I never do, why when I can press 2 buttons and it starts automatically, while I go get a snack and a drink. I'll learn how to cold start every DCS jet I buy, but not sure how many times I'll actually do it.

 

I certainly don't share that view Cali, I didn't spend good money on DCS products to let a one button start up take away the pleasure of bringing my ride to life. The start up and shut down procedure make up a large portion of the experience for me.

 

 

 

Whilst flying Ka50, A10C and P-51 i've been shotdown plenty of times by FC aircraft but never have I felt if they'd been flying DCS aircraft it would have been different, ofcourse it wouldn't.

People that get concerned over this simply suffer from ego bruising because it's another player. Do they feel the same way when the AI shoot them down, ofcourse not even though the AI uses low fidelity and scripted controls.

The fact is FC gives a DCS pilot a poor excuse to explain why he got splashed.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

guys, excuse my lack of knowledge, but what does the abbreviation AFM mean?and SFM as well...?

from the discussion i guess its somehow a more realistic flight model, but i would love to hear details, thx in advance.

 

and which crafts already have AFM?A10c,P51?

[Exorcet]

SFM simple flight model > no pitch/roll/yaw coupling, scripted stall, scripted takeoff/landing, plane is one body

 

AFM advanced flight model > coupling, basically nothing is scripted, parts of the plane are modeled separately

 

All current DCS modules are AFM, the FC3 Su-25 and A-10A are AFM, and the Su-25T is AFM.