Auto Pilot Shenanigans

[GreyBadger]

Morning Folks

 

Make yourselves a nice cuppa before reading on, because I give fair warning I am going to ramble. :lol: (Please skip right to the end if you want to get straight to the questions.)

 

For todays brain picking session I'd like to bend your ears about auto pilot if that's alright.

 

But just before I get to the meat of it, I wanted to ask you a related question about the official landing tutorial.

 

Having twice run through the navigation tutorial and stared blankly at the screen with a muttered "huh??" I've decided to shelve it for the moment and concentrate on the landing tutorial instead. In any case it seems more logical to me to tackle things in this order. I mean what's the point of knowing how to get from A-B, if you can't land when you get there, right?

 

Anyway, much of the tutorial is spent flying with autopilot on, but at the point of turning to a final approach for the ILS landing, we really don't seem to be in the place where the instructor thinks we are. Sure, we're over the sea and the coast (and therefor the airfield) are behind us. But when the instructor is saying you can now see the airfield, we're really pointing the wrong way.

 

Anyway... onto the main question.

 

Finding which key press does what is proving to be a bit of an ongoing adventure for me. I'd like to do it all with legitimate switch interaction in the cockpit, but realistically my old fashioned joystick and no track IR type device, means I'm going to be better accepting a compromise of some controls via the cockpit and some via the keyboard. I'm quite happy about this and it's not a problem.

 

Still it does lead to an ongoing fight to find keys in that immense control list as and when I need them and autopilot was one such key.

 

In the end I simply couldn't find it and only through the search function here at the forum, was I able to suss out that perhaps predictably it was "A". Then armed with this I went back to the keyboard layout and looked for "A" instead, which then gave me;

 

LAAP Altitude Bank Hold 4

LAAP Altitude Heading Hold 3

LAAP Path Hold 2

LAAP Engage / Disengage A

 

Are you still with me guys? I didn't send you to sleep yet did I? Ok well here's a bit more. :music_whistling:

 

In the meantime while I was looking for keyboard shortcuts, I also managed to find the autopilot panel in the cockpit, on the left hand side on a panel with LASTE written on it. (It's always in the LASTE place you look right?... no?...Ok suit yourselves.) it's pretty easy to get at and has a toggle for Path, ALT/HDG & Alt, which clearly correspond to the keyboard shortcuts I found.

 

So it seems as though I can choose which method I like best to use.... except that trying all three toggle positions and pressing the engage button didn't really seem to do anything. It produces a nice chime which I have learned to associate with autopilot being engaged, but nothing physically seemed to change.

 

Right that's all the info I think, so here are the actual questions oh patient ones.

 

1/ Before finding the "LAAP" keyboard shortcuts, I found a section of about ten or eleven marked simply "AAP". Noe of them were assigned to a key press and I assumed at first that they were the various auto pilot controls. What are they actually?

 

2/ If I used the LASTE panel to control autopilot, I would presumably choose a toggle position and then hit the engage switch. So if I go the keyboard route, would I first press "4","3" or "2" and then press "A"?

 

3/ What is engaging the autopilot actually doing. Because other than the nice chime, it seems not a whole lot. :lol:

 

4/ None of the toggle settings suggest to me a mode in which the autopilot will follow your flight waypoints. Is there such a setting? Or am I watching too much StarTrek.

 

5/ And finally.... I notice that I have a little leeway in joystick movement before the autopilot disengages. (Or at least I assume it does. A nice lady says "Warning, AutoPilot." But doesn't actually go on to say what about it.) Is this a feature? Or is it a limitation of my aged but trusty Logitech joystick, Doris. (She's long in the tooth, but Doris and I have seen many sims together.)

 

Thanks for any advice chaps.

 

Badger

[Nerull]

Hi there, the autopilot can be frustrating at times, I know. I'll give the answers I can give because I don't use the keyboard shortcuts since I've been crazy (lucky) enough to decide to bay a TM Warthog.

So 1 and 2: no idea

3.

*when the altitude/bank hold option is chosen the AP will keep your plane at the same altitude and bank it was at when you push the AP button. This allows you to start a turn and stay in that turn without loosing altitude, whilst you scan for targets/wait for info from the JTAC,...

*With the altitude/heading option the plane will stay at the altitude and heading you were at when you pushed the button: flying straight and level.

*With the Path/Hold option the plane will stay in the same configuration you put it in when pressing the button. So say you were climbing at a 5° angle, with a slight bank it'll keep doing that. I usually use this when I'm heading towards a waypoint and need to climb some more.

Once you hear the chime you'll also have a marking on the bottom left of the HUD (not totally bottom, but I don't recall the exact position) saying things like "Path hld", "alt hld" or "head hld".

4. The Hog doesn't have a full ap that'll follow the waypoint in your stead. The AP keeps the plane going the way it is, not caring about your flight path (unless I REALLY missed something :) )

5. You have to move the stick a little before the AP disengages, nothing wrong with your stick. I guess it's a safety feature to avoid the AP shutting of every time you look too hard at your stick :)

 

Hopes my explanations help/are clear.

[Bexx0r]

Hi there!

 

1. AAP stands for "Auxiliary Avionics Panel" - As it is already described in the manual, I suggest you check it out.

 

2. correct!

 

3. There are three modes for autopilot

a) Path Hold : It holds your plane's patch, for example if you want to climb for a longer time, you can pitch up 5°, engage the autopilot and it holds that path.

b) Alt Hold: It holds the plane's altitude, but can bank while doing it. So if you need to orbit at a WP you can bank the plane, engage autopilot and voila: It orbits and you can drink your coffee

c) Alt/Heading Hold: You need to be in level flight and this mode just holds it.

 

4. Too much Star Trek ;) - It is not capable of that

 

5. When you're in autopilot and move the stick it disengages the autopilot. Bitchin Betty just notifies you about it. This can also happen when you are in Alt Hold mode and bank too much. Plane loses its speed and cannot hold altitude --> Betty complains

 

 

I hope my English was not too complicated as it is not my native language.

 

 

Cheers!

Bexx0r

[Yellonet]

There's no such thing as "too much Star Trek" :)

[Nerull]

There's no such thing as "too much Star Trek" :)

 

Indeed!

And the KA-50 has the AP waypoint following implemented (and I think most airliners as well). So there's no need to go to outer space for that feature :p

[NhiTrac]

Hey guys, re autopilot chime... Is it just me or does it sound exactly like a windows chime? I keep thinking I've one of the sound files wrong and it's playing the old windows chime sound.

[shagrat]

Well, I just link this. EDIT: Put all infos into the Wiki for better reference.

 

Basically, you need to understand that an "Autopilot" is not an "automatic pilot", rather a supportive system, helping you to hold a certain course, but limited in its workings by real life physics... or: It's not a game, but a sim! :smilewink:

Edited April 13, 2013 by shagrat

[Furious]

Badger,

 

2) you got a nice clickable cockpit so click it. Put the autopilot switch in the right place and click A, or the big black button.:pilotfly:

[Bexx0r]

There's no such thing as "too much Star Trek" :)

Absolutely correct!

 

I'm praying every night for Voyager to be included into the DCS portfolio! :-D

[GreyBadger]

Thanks all. I've said it before and I'll say it again... this is such a great place to ask a question.

 

Badger

[jay43]

Spoke to a couple of real pilots and they said they use path hold to lock onto ILS glide slope and can descend holding the path using just speed brake and throttle tweaks.

[Noraf]

another thing you need to do ( if you haven't allready ), is to ARM the ap ( left most of the laste switches )

[GreyBadger]

another thing you need to do ( if you haven't allready ), is to ARM the ap ( left most of the laste switches )

Thanks Noraf. :thumbup: Actually I haven't done that yet. I guess the switch is pre-armed in the takeoff and landing tutorials I've run through so far.

 

Probably also mentioned in the startup tutorial perhaps? I've only done that once although I fully intend to go thorugh it a good few times and make my own notes.

 

So no auto pilot if I don't flick that switch on startup then?

 

Badger

[shagrat]

Thanks Noraf. :thumbup: Actually I haven't done that yet. I guess the switch is pre-armed in the takeoff and landing tutorials I've run through so far.

 

Probably also mentioned in the startup tutorial perhaps? I've only done that once although I fully intend to go thorugh it a good few times and make my own notes.

 

So no auto pilot if I don't flick that switch on startup then?

 

Badger

 

Basically, it is the EAC switch, which in turn requires SAS, RDR ALT, EGI activated and GPS alignment to be succesful! :music_whistling:

The thing with the A-10C is, you actually need to know, what the systems are doing and what their dependencies are. Sounds like a lot of work, but it isn't. You learn on the go.

The manual covers quite a bit about that.

 

In short terms it is:

 

- EAC (Enhanced Attitude Control) in other words the autopilot, that may stabilize your flight in three different modes

 

- SAS (Stability Augmentation Systems) the little "Trim" tabs that are situated on the ailerons and elevators > EAC automatically trims the plane to hold a course or attitude as much as the trim tabs permit

- RDR ALT ground radar to know when the plane is too low! Altitude warning, especially when heads down on autopilot!

- EGI (Embedded GPS INS) the GPS and Terrain Database allowing the EAC to correct drift and hold a course... that in turn needs the GPS to be aligned and "know" where the plane is.

 

The EAC can only be activated, if the plane is not pitched or banking too much. Even if you have activate the "autopilot" in HDG/ALT mode and let go on the stick the resulting nose down or up may "break" the ability of the EAC to stabilize your plane... :joystick:

 

You'll get used to it, very quick. Hold the course, activate "autopilot", slowly center the stick, eventually re-trim to support the EAC.

[pii]

Basically, it is the EAC switch, which in turn requires SAS, RDR ALT, EGI activated and GPS alignment to be succesful! :music_whistling:

The thing with the A-10C is, you actually need to know, what the systems are doing and what their dependencies are. Sounds like a lot of work, but it isn't. You learn on the go.

The manual covers quite a bit about that.

 

In short terms it is:

 

- EAC (Enhanced Attitude Control) in other words the autopilot, that may stabilize your flight in three different modes

 

- SAS (Stability Augmentation Systems) the little "Trim" tabs that are situated on the ailerons and elevators > EAC automatically trims the plane to hold a course or attitude as much as the trim tabs permit

- RDR ALT ground radar to know when the plane is too low! Altitude warning, especially when heads down on autopilot!

- EGI (Embedded GPS INS) the GPS and Terrain Database allowing the EAC to correct drift and hold a course... that in turn needs the GPS to be aligned and "know" where the plane is.

 

The EAC can only be activated, if the plane is not pitched or banking too much. Even if you have activate the "autopilot" in HDG/ALT mode and let go on the stick the resulting nose down or up may "break" the ability of the EAC to stabilize your plane... :joystick:

 

You'll get used to it, very quick. Hold the course, activate "autopilot", slowly center the stick, eventually re-trim to support the EAC.

 

I was wondering what SAS did. All I knew until this post was that I needed to turn it on the get the warning light to go off during start up :-) thanks!

[shagrat]

I put all infos about the EAC / Autopilot into the Wiki for convenience. Much easier now to link it as a reference. :thumbup:

 

Feel free to contribute!

[Maachine]

google "startup checklist a10c" or check the DCS website for a startup checklist. print it out for easy reference and once you run through the checklist a few times you'll learn your own way to start up the plane. i do it now mostly by memory. i just skim over the check list to make sure i didnt miss anything.

[Guest Izoul123]

Thanks Noraf. :thumbup: Actually I haven't done that yet. I guess the switch is pre-armed in the takeoff and landing tutorials I've run through so far.

 

Probably also mentioned in the startup tutorial perhaps? I've only done that once although I fully intend to go thorugh it a good few times and make my own notes.

 

So no auto pilot if I don't flick that switch on startup then?

 

Badger

 

 

Figured I'd add my 2 cents of advice on this as well.

 

Don't forget you can't activate/'arm' EAC until you are at the 4 min EGI alignment time and 'NAV' is blinking on your CDU. You won't be able to arm it until then, so don't try clicking it before this is done in your start-up procedure (it simply won't arm), it's actually the last switch I flick before taxi request.

 

Also bear in mind...TRIM TRIM TRIM, you MUST get in the habit of trimming the A10...A LOT....and I mean A LOT...each time you have altitude changes, speed changes, air temp changes, any/each weapon release, all of this is going to affect the A10, and if you don't trim to the point where she is flying stable (within about +,- 5 degrees any direction from centered level flight) without joystick input, the auto pilot system is pretty much going to be worthless and won't 'hold' for more than a few seconds, and finally, as others have chimed, there is no way-point to way-point autopilot system in the A10. Honestly, train yourself to trim, and the only time you will need autopilot is when you are playing online, and need to run to the bathroom/grab another beer/coffee, and even then, sometimes I won't even bother with autopilot anymore and it's still fine if trimmed a minute later. Other than that I never really use it anymore as it's not needed if you trim properly (for the most part). About the only time I use it is ALT hold for orbit patterns if I'm doing a shitload of heads down in MFD/TGP scanning for targets assuming no JTAC/AWACS. I've played many flight sims in the past, and by far, this sim/aircraft is the most demanding trim aircraft modeled that I've flown. If you don't constantly adjust your trim, all of the autopilot modes are in vain.

 

Also as one final note, you MUST get used to manually trimming at all times, if you get hit in combat with minor damage, and EAC is knocked out, your autopilot is gone for sure. Again, if you train yourself to 'trim' consonantly, this wont' be much of an issue depending on damage level/amount, and you might even be able to fight a bit longer, or make the decision to RTB immediately if you can. Other sims in the past 'autopilot' was the easy fix key so you could get your bearings, not here....learn to trim and autopilot will be a minor luxury for certain situations at best.

 

Hope to see you someday on line and fly a mission with you!

 

-Izoul-

Edited April 14, 2013 by Izoul123

[Mt5_Roie]

Thanks so much for clarifying this! Many times I would use JTac and have to bob up and down because I didn't realize you could engage different Auto pilot functions. The wiki is great with pics too :)

[Nealius]

I just figured out the bank/hold myself. It makes my life a hell of a lot easier when I am messing around with the systems.

[benargee]

http://en.wiki.eagle.ru/wiki/EAC_-_Autopilot_system_explained

[jay43]

I can confirm path hold does work for landing.

Whilst doing a number of circuits and bumps i used path hold for landing.

Once i had the ILS glide slope firmly in my sights and crossed up on the gimmble, i engaged auto pilot path hold which held the aircraft straight allowing me to descend using throttle and speedbrake coupled with trim nose up/down.

Leaving it on down the strip kept the aircraft straight to and did not dissengage until i had took off again climbed then made my turn to come around for another go thats when it kicked off.

[GreyBadger]

http://en.wiki.eagle.ru/wiki/EAC_-_Autopilot_system_explained

Oh that's handy. Added to favourites. :thumbup:

 

i had the ILS glide slope firmly in my sights and crossed up on the gimmble,

Oh dear.. I have to tell you that I hate it when my gimmble gets crossed!

Edited April 14, 2013 by GreyBadger

[shagrat]

Oh that's handy. Added to favourites. :thumbup:

 

 

Oh dear.. I have to tell you that I hate it when my gimmble gets crossed!

 

Yep! That was the idea, why I merged it all into the wiki:book: Much easier then linking posts and explaining stuff...

 

I strongly encourage everybody to contribute to the wiki, still lots of topics open, if everyone just puts some 2-3 sentences or bullet points, and the next guy corrects or elaborate the thought, we have a DCS encyclopedia in no time.:D

[pii]

Also bear in mind...TRIM TRIM TRIM, you MUST get in the habit of trimming the A10...A LOT....and I mean A LOT...each time you have altitude changes, speed changes, air temp changes, any/each weapon release, all of this is going to affect the A10, and if you don't trim to the point where she is flying stable (within about +,- 5 degrees any direction from centered level flight) without joystick input, the auto pilot system is pretty much going to be worthless and won't 'hold' for more than a few seconds, QUOTE]

 

All good advice but;

 

Oddly I have never trimed the aircraft and auto pilot works fine for me. What stick do you use? It must be adding inputs/drifting or something.