F-18 grip, WARTHOG compatible

[hegykc]

Hegykc, sorry about people turning on you like this. Please don't take it as an indication of the whole community...

 

Of course not.

 

I'm fine with questions and skepticism and it's all probably my fault, I try to explain and address them in detail but don't take the time and it comes out wrong, maybe I should be much shorter in my answers:

 

Q: Why no grip sales?

A: Everyone else I looked at is selling great and still not growing, I am skeptical of this usual way. I'll try to do things differently. No promises though, just updates on the progress. If I fail, we take the usual way.

Edited July 1, 2016 by hegykc

[The Black Swan]

No one's "turning on him". But some of us who've been following this thread for 3 years are skeptical at this point.

 

Sent while I should be working instead.

 

Call it what you like, if the situations Hegykc is going through are legit, then some of the skepticism that has been shown on this thread isn't very incouraging to him....

Try to see it from his perspective is all I'm sayin

[WildBillKelsoe]

would you consider making an airbus sidestick grip for TMWH?

 

 

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[hegykc]

would you consider making an airbus sidestick grip for TMWH?

 

I really shouldn't throw any more gasoline on the fire :)

 

Let's see about these prototypes first and how fast I can make them. But in theory, yes. Especially if I can find partners interested in manufacturing them. Which is my plan B, if I can't make it fast enough, give the designs and the technology to the already exiting small manufacturers. Actually it's more likely plan A for civil aviation and other stuff like helicopters. There's too much, so yeah, design them and send them away to whoever is interested in making them.

And let me just address again what I said earlier as I see how it is misread. When I "complain/criticize" other small manufacturers I am not criticizing them or their products. I'm criticizing the situation they are in. Situation I am in. Situation we as a relatively small community of military aviation study sim enthusiasts are. That is you can have the best talent, the best product, the best sales and your growth will still be very limited and slow. Hell there is a very good chance you might even go out of business. That's my problem. I cheer for each and every one of those guys and I hate it that they have to struggle this hard despite all their success. Someone has to go think outside the box.

 

To change that, we need a different way of manufacturing products and much bigger product range, more than we need a new grip, or grips.

Save

Edited July 1, 2016 by hegykc

[WildBillKelsoe]

well I'll promise you that I will purchase the Airbus sidestick for sure if you ever make one. Yes I agree fully with all you said above and I wish you all the best.

 

 

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[Myst]

Now I feel like an a-hole for calling your products vaporware. Its never a constructive thing to say... :poster_oops:

 

I've been watching this thread from the start and while its not exactly what I first thought it would be, you've got some valid reasoning for that so I think I'll just hope for the best and keep watching (and waiting...to throw down some dollars).

[bkthunder]

Here's the home truth for you Hegykc.

 

1) your track clip and aircraft panels are rendered completely obsolete by Oculus Rift.

 

2) the Warthog stick base is just fine. Proven reliable after years of use and more realistic than any other stick on the market.

 

3) the stick grip for various aircraft is still your best bet.

 

If you can print out some sticks and install some buttons you'll make cash, anything else is 3D pictures of dream peripherals that VR make pointless.

 

IMHO ;)

 

Couldn't agree more. The panels would be very cool, but only for people that can afford a full dome projector and cockpit. For us mortals, the Oculus offers the best immersion at the best price.

 

Go for the grips.

[mr_mojo97]

And for the 1 million plus of people who can't afford 800 dollars for a rift? Plus the extra hardware such as top end gpu and cpu you'll need to run it? I think your heads are in the clouds thinking everyone is going to use one. I'm sure most people will use one at some point but not until the price of everything comes waaaaaaaaaaaay down in price so to say that these panels are already obsolete is total pish talk.

And to say that having a cockpit requires a full dome projector ? Garbage talk. I had a full cockpit for the A-10C (almost 1:1) without a dome and without projectors but still had very good immersion.

If Hegykc can create these panels at a fraction of the cost (that he says can) of a rift then he'll make his money back no doubt about that.

As long as his joysticks are spot on with all metal gimbals similar to the VKB Gunfighter with interchangeable grips plus all the other items he says he's making (and I'm sure he's probably not even just making stuff for the flight sim market) he'll be minted soon enough.

Anyways times will tell, it's good that he's back on the forums with further details on his projects. All of which look cool to me.

[Bushmanni]

There's also demand for different kind of stick base than TM WH base. I didn't like the stiff center position of it at all. Besides that it was great but it's not ideal for precise flying or helicopters as it takes too much force to push it over the center hump.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

The gimbal of the warthog is also appalling quality too.

[some1]

- I was very interested in Warthog slew control update.

- I was very interested in F-18 throttle.

- I was vaguely interested in another grips for the Warthog (they usually have less functionality than the present F-16/A-10 model so it would be only for feels).

 

But I'm completely not interested in a Trackir alternative, WWII joysticks or panels. Anyway, good luck with finding clients when your renders materialize.

[hegykc]

- I was very interested in Warthog slew control update.

- I was very interested in F-18 throttle.

- I was vaguely interested in another grips for the Warthog (they usually have less functionality than the present F-16/A-10 model so it would be only for feels).

 

But I'm completely not interested in a Trackir alternative, WWII joysticks or panels. Anyway, good luck with finding clients when your renders materialize.

 

Whether you like it or not, TrackIr alternative, WWII sticks and panels are 5x less complex than modern jet stuff and it's 100x more popular. The TrackIr alternative especially! It's for racing, civilian flight sims, military flight sims, FPS, RPG even RTS... that alone can drive the prices of everything else down to where I would like them to be, and fuel the development of everything else.

 

Here's the home truth for you Hegykc.

 

1) your track clip and aircraft panels are rendered completely obsolete by Oculus Rift.

 

2) the Warthog stick base is just fine. Proven reliable after years of use and more realistic than any other stick on the market.

 

3) the stick grip for various aircraft is still your best bet.

 

If you can print out some sticks and install some buttons you'll make cash, anything else is 3D pictures of dream peripherals that VR make pointless.

 

IMHO ;)

 

Ok so points like these that are actually backed up and explained by some reasoning I don't mind at all, I welcome it and I'll gladly address it with reasoning of my own. And to anyone else, there's no reason to turn this into a pro camp vs critics. If you have points backed up by logic, we can discuss either pro or con.

 

So let my try to address your points with reasoning of my own:

 

1) Oculus rift and other VR

 

Why should they exclude each other completely? Did Playstation kill PC or vice versa? Did disel kill the gass engine? And what about twist grip joysticks, did they kill rudder pedals or even non twist grip sticks?? VR and physical cockpit are 2 completely different worlds, if you don't feel like that than you do not have that cockpit itch. I cannot wait to try Oculus, that is the only thing that can provide a true illusion of flight. But there are people like me who are interested in procedures and checklists. It's way more than just flicking switches, especially if you can have a complete replica cockpit. So a cockpit replica will never give you a true illusion of flying, but Oculus will never give you a true illusion of being a pilot. I will certainly use both.

 

When you couple that with the fact that oculus is 800$ + the highest end computer (and how many gamers have that??), and my FC3 style panel is targeted for $99 and there will be one cool generic panel like that for each DCS level aircraft, I'm working on my WWII cockpits to be in the 299$ range, and jet cockpits in the 599$ range, I think I'm ok either way. You also have to think further than the gaming market. There are professionals who could very much use a full blown simulator that does not cost 30 million dollars. Flight schools, museums, private operators, you name it. If this market doesn't want this, I'll just go make construction equipment simulators for professional operator training and I can raise my prices 30x.

 

2) Yes warthog base if fine, true. But it is also true that it has problems, and it is true that many things can be better than fine. The problem is, it's fine for 450$, 600$ if you're outside US. VKB wouldn't sell several tens of thousands units of joystick only if this wasn't the case.

 

3) This is your reason because I still haven't explained the whole picture. I'd like to do that with prototypes, not words and renders. For starters, the TrackIr alternative would be an even better bet, much better. But what if I can replicate the Warthog HOTAS with a gimbal base, replacement grips and throttle with 72 switches in total for half the price and minus all the problems Warthog has? And keep in mind TrackIr alternative and WWII stuff is the reason for the price reduction, not because I'm superman, I can't do magic. But I can work around a certain problem and think outside of the box. We will see if I can do that in the upcoming months.

 

Just make stick grips for F/A-18 and F-14 and watch the dollars roll in.

 

If I wanted to do that, I would go directly to the professional simulator market and watch 100x the dollar amount roll in. Don't tempt me :)

 

But again, even with the new update I still haven't painted the whole picture. What if I can make my own hotas with all the improvements and minus all the problems, for half the price? We will see in the upcoming months.

Save

Edited July 2, 2016 by hegykc

[some1]

Whether you like it or not, TrackIr alternative, WWII sticks and panels are 5x less complex than modern jet stuff and it's 100x more popular. The TrackIr alternative especially! It's for racing, civilian flight sims, military flight sims, FPS, RPG even RTS... that alone can drive the prices of everything else down to where I would like them to be, and fuel the development of everything else.

 

 

TrackIR is not THAT expensive, most of the people who are serious about flightsimming can afford one anyway. And those who are not serious would treat it like a curiosity at best.

It's not very usable outside the flight sims too so don't expect many new customers. Even for car simulators triple screens are much better, few people buy Trackir especially for racing.

 

BTW which RTS supports Trackir? Haven't seen one...

[hegykc]

TrackIR is not THAT expensive, most of the people who are serious about flightsimming can afford one anyway. And those who are not serious would treat it like a curiosity at best.

It's not very usable outside the flight sims too so don't expect many new customers. Even for car simulators triple screens are much better, few people buy Trackir especially for racing.

 

BTW which RTS supports Trackir? Haven't seen one...

 

Don't get offended but calling a gaming accessory priced at 230$ not that expensive when alternative can be made for less than half price is just not logical or serious. This is just casual opinion talk and I'm very serious about this. Markets are won by 10% price reductions. If you're telling me that a potential product that skips several pricing levels is not really needed, I cannot waste time on such casual back and forth completely baseless opinion exchange. That can be said for any new product ever, and we don't really need anything in the future, things are just not that expensive so why even try, right?

Edited July 2, 2016 by hegykc

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Can we stop this pointless back and forth? It's achieving nothing.

[debolestis]

Yes, more renderers please.

[hegykc]

Can we stop this pointless back and forth? It's achieving nothing.

 

It's not a problem. My original post and thread title doesn't have anything at all to do with the current subject anymore anyway so... As soon as I have pictures of a first prototypes I will open a relevant thread for each cockpit.

 

Yes, more renderers please.

 

You'd just like to see the world burn :) By this point it'll take me less time to machine and assemble actual prototypes then it would to set up renders, the ones shown are from 6 months ago.

Save

Edited July 2, 2016 by hegykc

[hegykc]

Oh I see. Well alright, point proven.

 

You still have to consider that your cockpit probably took you years custom make, takes up a huge amount of space and I don't even want to ask how much money. And just go by logic, any kind of totally exclusive claims about anything in the past, have been wrong. This will end that, that will kill this etc. The world just isn't that black and white.

 

If I were planning a multi billion dollar product then yes, but I'm targeting an almost minuscule portion of the sim market really, with the full blown cockpits. The generic $99 panels are in no way competing with rift, and hotas is never going away, which is still my No.1 priority, it just can't be the only one.

 

Edit:

Is there really every single switch/knob/button in your simpit? I don't know if the mouse pad is just covering the right side, but doesn't look like a full blown simpit. Because that's what I'm talking about. A full blown, every knob/switch/button left, right and front consoles, desktop mounted for less than 1/10 of the price of a VR setup and the PC needed to run it.

Edited July 2, 2016 by hegykc

[some1]

Don't get offended but calling a gaming accessory priced at 230$ not that expensive when alternative can be made for less than half price is just not logical or serious. This is just casual opinion talk and I'm very serious about this. Markets are won by 10% price reductions. If you're telling me that a potential product that skips several pricing levels is not really needed, I cannot waste time on such casual back and forth completely baseless opinion exchange. That can be said for any new product ever, and we don't really need anything in the future, things are just not that expensive so why even try, right?

 

What I'm telling you is that a trackir is a niche product and you won't sell a ton more of these just because what you offer is 100 bucks cheaper than a well established product already on the market. Of course you will sell some, but how many and would it be worth the effort?

 

You also seem to not have much idea what such product can do and what it can't, if you claim that it can be used in various game genres, RPG and rts even. Ever saw the list of all games that support the trackir?

 

Anyway, I'm out, we can talk again when you deliver something.

[hegykc]

What I'm telling you is that a trackir is a niche product and you won't sell a ton more of these just because what you offer is 100 bucks cheaper than a well established product already on the market. Of course you will sell some, but how many and would it be worth the effort?

 

You also seem to not have much idea what such product can do and what it can't, if you claim that it can be used in various game genres, RPG and rts even. Ever saw the list of all games that support the trackir?

 

Anyway, I'm out, we can talk again when you deliver something.

 

Why would I want to sell a ton more then them. They probably sold more than 100,000 units, probably several times that. You're assuming I'm trying to become a multi millionaire or something over this which couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

All I need is 50+ units per month, and since I have dozens of other planned, I can't go under if sales of one drop, because there will always be something else to manufacture.

 

Do I make it seem like I want to take over the world with this? I'm sorry maybe I should take more time to re-read my own posts before posting. Or maybe you should just tone down what ever you think after reading my posts, by 80% and you will come to a more accurate depiction of what I really mean. I'm just a guy trying to get my fellow simmers some affordable and innovative products, and not disappear in a year or two, or be in the same place I was when I started selling.

Edited July 2, 2016 by hegykc

[bobslob]

Oh I see. Well alright, point proven.

Edit:

Because that's what I'm talking about. A full blown, every knob/switch/button left, right and front consoles, desktop mounted for less than 1/10 of the price of a VR setup and the PC needed to run it.

 

If you can provide that for ~$200, I'm in.

[some1]

I'm just a guy trying to get my fellow simmers some affordable and innovative products, and not disappear in a year or two, or be in the same place I was when I started selling.

 

In that case, good luck with your endeavor and as I said, we'll talk again when you deliver.

[hegykc]

If you can provide that for ~$200, I'm in.

 

That is stretching it, but with some conditions very much possible for the F-18 (if other fighters have such simple panels, great):

 

1) Panels only. No mfd's, no instruments, no throttle and stick.

 

2) Non backlit. Because in that case I have no painting work whatsoever, not even for the engravings. If that's a deal breaker, increase your price point to 299$ and it's again possible. Still a bit stretched but possible with all the other extra products.

 

3) I do not charge profit for the aluminum extrusion clamps (which sell for 100$+ now, because it's the only product the company sells). I am willing to do that but you have to wait until i develop other product too, so I can make up for lost profit or free work.

 

4) I do not charge profit for custom printed replica knobs. Can be non backlit or backlit. Which I will do because the knobs are not a product anymore, they are a component, just like toggles. I could have started selling replica knobs a year ago at 200$ and what good would that do.

 

So when you take the time to research and develop a larger picture like this, things that seemed totally impossible become very much within reach. On top of that, I want replica cockpits for myself regardless, and if full blown cockpit replicas fail I'll just make them as a hobby, just to fly with a squadron of people with full blown cockpits, and sell them at 0 profit and make my money on hotas units and other simple stuff.

Edited July 2, 2016 by hegykc

[bobslob]

That is stretching it, but with some conditions very much possible for the F-18 (if other fighters have such simple panels, great):

 

I do hope you all the best, I'm waiting for the F18 stick desperately... pleasepleaseplease :lol:

 

But you're claiming 1/10th the price of a VR Headset and PC... which is really only about ~2000USD. I'd love to see it in that price range, but it seems... too cheap =D

[Sokol1_br]

TrackIR is not THAT expensive...

 

Important notice that TrackIR cost ~150/170$ only in US market... and people looking for affordable headtrack device is not only in US market. ;)

 

Same apply for VR.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Sokol1_br