DCS F-35A

[Starkiller]

I'm not sure if you understand what's KS is for.. mixing the project expenses with the profit is completely wrong! KS is not there to maximize the profits, those money should be only used to develop the product, while the profits are accounted by the production costs that is something completely different! I know that many people believes that Kickstarter is a way to earn money.. but IT IS NOT! Kickstarter is not linked to the profit, it's there only to help you to "do something" when you do not have a initial capital.

 

Launch a product on Kickstarter in the hope of collect an easy profit is the worst way to use that platform, that's not a damn e-commerce platform, for that type of things there's a sale method, it's called: pre-sale (pre-ordering for the customer).

 

You can maximize profit in many ways, not only through sales but also through a wise choice of how to get funded. By using leverage (i.e. using others' money) you increase ROI. For example if a project use $100 investment to get 20% profit. If you invest 100%, your ROI is 20%. If you only invest your own money 50% and others' 50% ignoring the cost of fund, your ROI will be 40%.

 

KS is a new platform that mixing funding with preordering and sales. You cannot use old Industrial Age paradigm to categorize it to be only for funding. That is not what it is. Of course KS have its own inherent problem of scamming, but it is normal in any business activities. That is why people need to use their best judgement in business transaction. However, many independent game developers successfully get funded to create their dream games that will be otherwise fail to get funded through normal publishers. Nowadays publishers gone mass and niche market games like RPG or flight sims are largely ignored by them.

 

As this is way off-topic, I will stop this conversation now. Just agree to disagree.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Starkiller

[Revelation]

Pre order is the best way, the producer que will guarantee the product will be delivered on a set date, ie the producer this also assuming some of the risks of financial loss the customer need not count on luck to get the product, I am not an investor, I'm a buyer.

 

The product is no where close to being a pre-order yet. Typically a pre-order happens after a product has reached a point in development that it is close to being released. If KI was at this point, there would be no need for kickstarter.

 

 

If all you want to be is a buyer, then sit on the sidelines and be patient...

[Vaff]

Now im just looking forward to all when is it going to be released. OMG dosent matter if its not finished. Release now topics.

This is your chance to be part of a project.

[SUBS17]

Neither the hook nor the A's landing gear are up to withstanding a carrier landing, and there is no emergency ground arresting equipment in game. Why spend valuable time modelling something that will be entirely useless?

 

Why do half a job then? The aircraft has one and modelling ground arrester kit is something that will no doubt happen with the DCS F/A-18C. Remember this is DCS not FC3.:thumbup:

[SUBS17]

The hook is there as a safety device incase of hydraulic failure or some other problem that would warrent the aircraft to use a hook to safely get it to stop. Its not for carrier landing, and as near blind said the A model couldnt withstand the forces of a carrier landing.

 

I never said it would be for carrier landings, remember this is for DCS not FC3 so IMO DCS F-35A should have one.:doh:

[SUBS17]

Hello,

I'm the 3D modeler. I had posted earlier a shot of the model in DCS, which Skatezilla had kindly lend his assistance to. He condensed what could have taken me about a month to figure out on my own or through trudging through the forums to a couple hours in a single night. Here's the shot:

 

There's still ALOT for me to figure out, but I just wanted to correct the notion that no other updates had been made.

 

Jamal

 

Hi nice work on the 3d model I saw on your website.:thumbup:

[MaverickNZ]

Passed the 20% mark last night, also getting a nice group of followers on our Facebook page too :)

[GGTharos]

It isn't a matter of half-jobs, it is a matter of priorities. The emergency arrestor hook is nothing more than a nice touch in such a sim, and nothing more. The time can be spent on modeling other things instead, so personally I just do not see it happening.

 

Why do half a job then? The aircraft has one and modelling ground arrester kit is something that will no doubt happen with the DCS F/A-18C. Remember this is DCS not FC3.:thumbup:

[pyromaniac4002]

I'm just curious what do you base your experience statements on? I must be missing something here, because I see no references related to building a fully functional 3D cockpit (with HMD) plus radar modeling plus AFM or even a new terrain in DCS World among other things (just random examples), especially given that the teams with recent relevant experience (like producing FSX add-ons) seem to be struggling here.

 

So, please pardon my sorry skeptical mind, but I hope they have some updates forthcoming to the KS page, because, frankly, all I see is a 3D model plus links to youtube videos and various DCS World features. I would at least expect the team presentation with their relevant technical skills (to make up for the lack of presentation material) which would make it possible to pull off this daunting task. So, that would make a nice KS update, IMHO.

 

They've been quite forthcoming that this is intended to be an A-10C-level of fidelity, so obviously that entails a 6DOF cockpit, AFM, and the like. I don't know where I ever mentioned anything about this, but if you take the time to read the whole Home page on their Kickstarter, it answers all of this. It even mentions that modelling the radar (including a SAR mode) is going to be one of the more complicated aspects, given that it's an entirely new feature to be added to DCS, but they certainly intend to meet that challenge with success.

 

Why would you see anything other than a 3D model right now? The whole reason they're on Kickstarter is to get the initial funding to start working on this. And this developer has a history of building whole standalone flight sims, not just add-ons for FSX, so while I'm not familiar with whatever it is that is making the FSX add-on guys here "struggle" (are they, even? I wouldn't have said so), developing a full game is more involved and speaks to a greater degree of know-how. Whatever the time frame, F-35A is obviously going to be a full-featured module like you would expect from ED or any of the developers that they allow to create modules for DCS: World.

 

Again, this always boils down to the point that DCS is Eagle Dynamics's baby. They're not going to let halfwits and scam artists come in here and take a bunch of money from their customers for a crap product or no product at all.

Edited June 30, 2013 by pyromaniac4002

[pyromaniac4002]

Yup, he pushed the whole thing a way too much, without giving detailed information of why this module had the potential to succeed. When you see someone trying to advertise a product in that way, you start to smell something wrong. At least that was my first reaction...

 

 

 

Pretty wrong decision.. "trying to make their virtual" ... ? This is DCS world, we will have it (probably not, looking at the funds) into "our" world. We don't need ppl experimenting things without knowing if they will end with something good or with crap.

 

Honestly I would have given my money for an aircraft that has been around by a while, with a good chance of seeing it completed (a F18, a F14, a F16...), but not for a F35, the chance of end with guessing how things works into that airplane (transforming a simulator into a random buttons game) are too high, in my opinion there's no way they could collect enough detailed info to end with a simulation at A10C level (that is the minimum acceptable, for me, that deserves to be implemented as a DCS module).

I could imagine a detailed F35 simulator in three years, but not today.

 

Maybe they will fail with the F35 thing and they will eventually opt for something that makes more sense. They probably have imagined all the kids attracted by the futuristic overpowered machine that the F35 represent (more chances to collect money), but they forgot that the DCS user-base (and especially those ppl that have enough money to "invest") aren't all kids, but ppl that are interested into a serious simulation, this chaps are generally attracted more by a super-hornet than the USS Enterprise.

 

Honestly, this is just ridiculously negative. It's not Wags's job to "advertise" a module. He didn't "push" anything, he made one quick post with a link to the Kickstarter. If you're just looking to find fault with the module, just jump on the "too little available information to properly model, though we don't actually have a clue what KI has access to" bandwagon. This is nuts.

[Mike Busutil]

Here is a video of an early prototype of the F-35, The X-35....

 

The technology involved to get a fighter jet to hover in stable flight is AMAZING!

 

http://youtu.be/2HcFrlUcMHU

[pyromaniac4002]

So, who is actually going to do all that? Mr. Kinney himself? His team? Who's on this team and what experience do they have? This kind of information would be very helpful to instilling confidence in the supporters, IMHO.

 

Sorry, did you have the full roster of everyone who worked on DCS: Huey? I sure didn't, and I've been flying a UH-1H around DCS: World for a while now (and having a hell of a good time in the process). Strange for some fly by night operation that nobody knows who did what for.

 

Jeez, I'm offline for half a day and all of the skeptics decide to fill a few pages worth of material with all but libelous accusations that this is some kind of fraud. Look, this thread is real simple, if you want an F-35 in DCS, kick in a few bucks at your discretion. If you don't (this includes those who will find any and every reason to criticize this project or its developer), you keep your money right in your pocket. Your criticism has been noted. For what it's worth I appreciate a degree of devil's advocate as I'm sure many people here do, and maybe you'll even have some positive input in getting the developer to allay this litany of complaints (the graphics guy did post the early model in DCS screenshot), but good lord, the way you guys (and it's only like 2 or 3 of you that I've noticed) are going after this thing is more like a personal vendetta than anything. It's like it doesn't matter what anybody says to the contrary, you're just going to bury it in text so a handful of people will see it before it's 4 pages back in the thread anyways.

Edited June 30, 2013 by pyromaniac4002

[SUBS17]

It isn't a matter of half-jobs, it is a matter of priorities. The emergency arrestor hook is nothing more than a nice touch in such a sim, and nothing more. The time can be spent on modeling other things instead, so personally I just do not see it happening.

 

Hopefully they get around to it eventually, I've been waiting since the 80s for a 3d modeller to actually model the hooks on such aircraft.:doh:

[XtraChrisP]

Makeup of a top notch flight sim:

Avionics 15%

Flight model 13%

Cockpit model 22%

Emergency arrestor tail hook 50%

 

better get your priorities in order, KI ;)

[PeterP]

the way you guys (and it's only like 2 or 3 of you that I've noticed) are going after this thing is more like a personal vendetta than anything. It's like it doesn't matter what anybody says to the contrary, you're just going to bury it in text so a handful of people will see it before it's 4 pages back in the thread anyways.

true

[outlawal2]

So you come in here and start advocating KI after seeing ZERO evidence of their abilities, right? Truly, much wiser.

 

Without any doubt, Mr. Kinney is surely a skilled and experienced man in his field. But have you seen any particular demonstration of his F-35 inside DCS World? Or, have you seen any of his previous work in DCS World at all?

 

No you didn't, because unless I'm really missing something, there isn't any. Sorry, but just saying "Hey, I'm pretty good at my job and I'm confident I can do it guys" might be nice, but I don't consider it a convincing presentation of my project.

 

So please don't be upset if somebody doesn't share your gullible approach. Let KI to convince us themselves, preferably by showing us something working inside DCSW.

 

 

 

Isn't it essentially the same? *runs*hides* :)

 

If he had a fully functioning model within DCS then he wouldn't need the Kickstart would he? And he would be selling the module right now..

 

I know that if I was starting a project I wouldn't complete it (Which is pretty much what the naysayers are asking for) before I had the funding in place...

 

So basically what this thread has turned into is a handful of naysayers expecting to have a fully working model in DCS along with the names and social security numbers of every member along with a comprehensive background and resume for everyone that is going to work on the project...

 

Give me a break... You MIGHT get that kind of transparency if you were funding the ENTIRE project but for $50 get real... (And I don't recall getting all this information from Belsimtek and they put out the excellent Huey module)

 

This forum bitches about wanting new modules and "Wish Lists" and the like and then someone shows up and is pretty much called a liar and a crook for three pages..

 

Way to better the place! I commend you all..

[pyromaniac4002]

Emergency arrestor tail hook 50%

 

better get your priorities in order, KI ;)

 

I'm all for realism, but this will become more relevant to me when I can call ATC and have them set up their emergency arrestor system when I'm flying in with less of the plane that I flew out with. :joystick:

 

If he had a fully functioning model within DCS then he wouldn't need the Kickstart would he? And he would be selling the module right now..

 

Good man.

[leafer]

If he had a fully functioning model within DCS then he wouldn't need the Kickstart would he? And he would be selling the module right now..

 

I know that if I was starting a project I wouldn't complete it (Which is pretty much what the naysayers are asking for) before I had the funding in place...

 

So basically what this thread has turned into is a handful of naysayers expecting to have a fully working model in DCS along with the names and social security numbers of every member along with a comprehensive background and resume for everyone that is going to work on the project...

 

Give me a break... You MIGHT get that kind of transparency if you were funding the ENTIRE project but for $50 get real... (And I don't recall getting all this information from Belsimtek and they put out the excellent Huey module)

 

This forum bitches about wanting new modules and "Wish Lists" and the like and then someone shows up and is pretty much called a liar and a crook for three pages..

 

Way to better the place! I commend you all..

 

We are trying to better the place by not blindly following a man and his word. Anyway, here you are freaking out because people wanted a little reassurance from the man who has given none. So pardon us for wanting to see the boobs are all natural before we all get a hard on. :D On page two he said he wanted to make himself available for questions, but he has been avoiding the obvious ones hasn't he? Then there's the flying beta ready in April which would mean he's much further along than you think considering a 3d pit takes at least a year to complete. So, show it. Other developer who took on kickstarter, that I've seen so far, have been more than willing with the info and videos.

 

Here's the first question posted that he has not answered:

How is this 'with or without DCS World' going to work?

 

EDIT: To be more precise, if it works without DCS World what is the environment?

 

Unless that other environment is FSX...

[pyromaniac4002]

Before I start this, I just want to say to all of these people with the criticisms, you need to be honest with yourselves about whether you're even open to changing your mind. Otherwise, there's really no reason for you to read any of the following or respond in any manner. It will save us both a substantial amount of time.

 

So pardon us for wanting to see the boobs are all natural before we all get a hard on.

 

:ermm: haha, a little graphic, but okay..

 

We are trying to better the place by not blindly following a man and his word. Anyway, here you are freaking out because people wanted a little reassurance from the man who has given none.

 

Granted, nobody here wants their donation to be in vain, but there's an appropriate level of skepticism, and then there's an inappropriate one.

 

You might consider that the guy (the head honcho of this organization, no less) is pretty busy organizing other aspects of the project other than securing his initial funding. He's actually been surprisingly responsive to comments (and questions) that people have had on the Kickstarter, certainly much more so than I would ever expect a person in his position to be doing, so I'd give him a lot of credit for trying to make himself available to all of us. You'll have to kick in some fraction of a dollar, but if you're really this concerned to get a response right here and now, I'd say that's your best bet so far. You can probably expect even more transparency when the support staff for this module takes better shape and he actually gets some dedicated people to sift through these innumerable forum posts and address peoples' questions before they keep winding each other up to the point where it's been two days since the Kickstarter went live and you guys are screaming bloody murder about how this is such a scam.

 

Update: They're having a Q&A on the project's Facebook page. Nut up or (as politely as I can put it) shut up.

https://www.facebook.com/DCSF35/posts/165754143606898

 

When I first saw this I did plenty of investigation myself, even though I wasn't going to go ahead and call it a scam outright anyways. The guy's website is legit, it's referenced by other websites for a couple home cockpit system things you can buy, he's got several standalone flight simulator games under his belt, and he has experience with avionics in military-grade simulator to boot (unless of course we can't believe anything anyone says about themselves anymore).

 

And it must be the 5th time I've said it, but:

Eagle Dynamics has okayed him and his team to develop this project for DCS. If you have any faith in the team that has built the products that this entire forum is based around, you can have a little faith in the people they choose to add on to their legacy.

 

We're also not the only community in the world that they're promoting this module in. I'm sure there are people in a number of places having this exact same conversation. If I had to manage a project like this and deal with damage control on even 3 different threads like this at the same time by myself, I'd be locked in my bathroom sucking my thumb and rocking back and forth in my bathtub for 10 hours a day. Be thoughtful about this, because there are an awful lot of blatantly obvious reasons that Mr. Kinney and KI literally cannot cater to your every question and concern. And again, it's been two days since this really started to become relevant. If anything, you can understand that a little bit of patience is appropriate.

 

Then there's the flying beta ready in April which would mean he's much further along than you think considering a 3d pit takes at least a year to complete.

 

For MiG-21bis, which so far as I can tell is a product of only a handful of people if not mainly Beczl, maybe. This guy and his company have worked with complete development teams like you might expect from a major video game developer, so it seems like this is the objective with F-35. The $75,000 they're looking for in the Kickstarter isn't just for kicks, it's to hire the necessary people to get started on developing this project!

 

All that aside, you know, you could find that during these OPEVAL sessions, we could have a non- or partially functioning cockpit like we've seen in screenshots of a few other things. There's absolutely no reason you have to have a fully-detailed cockpit ready for people to take the plane up in the air and test some of the flight dynamics. It's all incremental.

 

Unless that other environment is FSX...

 

FSX is the anti-christ of combat flight simulators. This F-35 is a combat aircraft which they intend to model in the best manner possible, in my mind there's not a chance in hell that KI or Mr. Kinney himself would put it in a combat-less flight simulator.

 

I don't know what the plan is, but my guess if it is to be available in a truly DCS-independent fashion is that they would put out a standalone version, like we used to get with Jane's USAF or Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator. They have the experience of doing it in the past, I don't see why the current case would be any different.

 

Besides any of that, you're here on this forum, so I would assume you have DCS: World and more than likely a couple of the modules for it, so how does this little detail make any difference to you whatsoever?

Edited June 30, 2013 by pyromaniac4002

[XtraChrisP]

...

 

Hopefully this post doesn't get buried by a few pages of comments from a handful of Debbie Downers, but if it does, I will be happy to give it a quote/bump. Very well said.

[MaverickNZ]

Hi Guys,

 

Just picking up on one comment made here - we are not actively avoiding questions, but with over 100 pages of comments its easy for us to miss questions given that this isnt the only forum we are monitoring, nor even the only thing we are working on towards the project at the moment.

We have started a Q&A thread on our facebook page where David is answering questions from the community - if you have a genuine question about the DCS F-35 and would like him to answer it, please submit it as a comment on the Q&A. Thanks! :)

 

Mav

[cheap charlie]

Hi Guys,

 

Just picking up on one comment made here - we are not actively avoiding questions, but with over 100 pages of comments its easy for us to miss questions given that this isnt the only forum we are monitoring, nor even the only thing we are working on towards the project at the moment.

We have started a Q&A thread on our facebook page where David is answering questions from the community - if you have a genuine question about the DCS F-35 and would like him to answer it, please submit it as a comment on the Q&A. Thanks! :)

 

Mav

 

Common sense here. Problem is that some posters truly believe the world revolves around eagle forums so therefore if a question is unanswered it is because the Dev is hiding and avoiding the question which obviously means he is corrupt :no_sad:

[Sven2157]

Hello,

I'm the 3D modeler. I had posted earlier a shot of the model in DCS, which Skatezilla had kindly lend his assistance to. He condensed what could have taken me about a month to figure out on my own or through trudging through the forums to a couple hours in a single night. Here's the shot:

 

There's still ALOT for me to figure out, but I just wanted to correct the notion that no other updates had been made.

 

Jamal

 

WOW! :huh: That is stealthy! Almost looks like a blank white page, with letters on it! :pilotfly:

 

So their 3D modeler can't work the forums, and took several hours to post a blank image? Did I understand that right? :huh: I guess there is still A LOT to figure out ...

[Prophet]

So its a dead link. Never seen it happen?

 

Seriously you need to grow the F- up.

[Sven2157]

So its a dead link. Never seen it happen?

 

Seriously you need to grow the F- up.

 

:lol:

 

Wow tough crowd! Relax Champ! Your panties are still intact!