ON board Sound card or PCI-E one

[SkateZilla]

Im just gonna leave a link here

 

Im not an expert about this topic but i feel like these guys have something to say about audio...

 

I cant watch as Office PC doesnt have speakers here,

 

But I can tell you from experience, I'll never use a cheap onboard Chip again.

 

Granted, no Game specifically uses hardware Audio Anymore (ie X-Fi/EAX, Xonar, etc), everything is prolly done through a CPU Thread and WASAPI now.

 

However, With my X-Fi and the updated Software, I Still have Access to Hardware functions of the chip.

 

So I can Specifically tune the EQ At a HARDWARE Level, and not use software to load the CPU.

Not to mention apply environmental effects, etc etc, stuff that VIA HD Audio Deck and other Onboard sound Chips dont offer.

 

I can still force EAX to Run on the chip, so even if DCS uses X-Audio2 on a CPU Thread to process everything, I can still force EAX Effects to be applied as the Audio is passed to my X-Fi Card.

 

I Do the same thing for BluRays/DVD's/InternetStreams (Specifically Concerts).

Applying the Custom EAX Effects makes concerts actually sound like you are there, and not like a Re-Mastered CD Lipsynced over the Video, All without adding CPU Workload.

 

Specific Movie types sound better with Certain EAX Pre-sets ON. (Saving Private Ryan, Battle Los Angeles, etc etc). (i actually use the same preset that I use when playing BF3, lol)

 

I've played Games w/ Onboard Chip and they sound flat, and making adjustments is done through the Software Audio Stack of Windows, which causes some CPU Load (though prolly insignificant).

 

on the X-Fi I can adjust frequencies to get more bass treble, mid-range whatever. Without putting ANY work on the CPU.

 

I play DCS with EAX forced ON, as it helps with making some Sound Effects sound closer or further away. Same with Other games, ie BF3/4 weapons sound better, distance/indoor/outdoor characteristics, etc

 

Not to mention, X-Fi has the ability to take a Game's 5.1 Channels and Downmix them to Stereo Via CMSS-3D.

 

And from experience, CMSS-3D on Quality Stereo Headphones works surprisingly well in both DCS and Shooters (ie BF3). When Tuned you can clearly hear what direction gun fire is coming from as well as know what direction people are walking up to you from. You can clearly hear your wingman's engines in formation and clearly tell where they are in relation to your aircraft).

 

Like I Said, Games dont support the stuff anymore, (Hardware Audio Rendering etc etc).

But You can Still force these things on at a Hardware Level, My X-Fi Chip can Analyze, Modify and Output any incoming Audio Stream, from Windows Itself, or any running application, regardless of whether they support EAX or other features.

[c0ff]

Not to mention, X-Fi has the ability to take a Game's 5.1 Channels and Downmix them to Stereo Via CMSS-3D.

 

And from experience, CMSS-3D on Quality Stereo Headphones works surprisingly well in both DCS and Shooters (ie BF3). When Tuned you can clearly hear what direction gun fire is coming from as well as know what direction people are walking up to you from. You can clearly hear your wingman's engines in formation and clearly tell where they are in relation to your aircraft).

 

Yep, HRTF is the thing for which DSP makes a perfect sense.

[Suchacz]

+ sound is clearer a crispier in general even on my cheap and quite old Audigy2 than on an every onboard sound chip I ever experienced

[danilop]

Im just gonna leave a link here

 

Im not an expert about this topic but i feel like these guys have something to say about audio...

 

There are some fundamental flaws with that video. It assumes that you will not hear the difference - well let me tell you after more than twenty years around pro audio, countless pro and semi pro audio cards - you can hear it clearly. The difference is there if you listen (and more importantly know what to listen for). Heck, you can hear difference between OP amps on accurate equipment every day. Not to mention jittery sync clocks and such.

 

Having said that, the main question is: Will you, as an average gamer notice it in your game while in the heat of the battle? Most likely not!

 

So, although I like Tech Syndicate and i'm long time subscriber, I'm not completely with them on this one.

Edited December 18, 2013 by danilop

[SkateZilla]

A Gamer that doesnt know how to use the features the Chip Offers would barely notice any difference outside of better clarity.

 

However, if you know how to use the features (ie EAX, and other Hardware Based Features), you'd be able to tune the Audio to the point where it's night and day.

 

That's the Issue I have with Creative, Since Windows Vista Onward, the Audio Stack has changed, and Creative, removed most of the Hardware Functions and moved them over to Software, and their software is already considered bloatware, then to make everything run off the CPU, disapointing.

 

So Cor3D-> Z Series is basically a small Chip with minimal functions, while they moved all the EQ Effects and stuff to the Software, You might as well run the onboard, as the SnR was amazingly bad.

 

 

I'll keep my X-Fi for as long as I can.

192KHz, Superior SnR, HARDWARE Level EQ and EAX Effects.

 

Not to mention the Pro-Features (ASIO, MIDI, etc etc).

Edited December 18, 2013 by SkateZilla

[HiJack]

Actually I have the Sound Blaster Recon3D Fatal1ty Professional PCIe Audio Card modell SB 1356 sitting on my desk and will once more try to use it in my system. I changed from AMD to Intel CPU just before summer so hopefully the latest SB drivers will do the job as SkateZilla says. I’ll make sure to create a restore point first :music_whistling:

[SkateZilla]

I'd recommend the PAX Drivers if they support the Cor3D series.

[leafer]

There are some fundamental flaws with that video. It assumes that you will not hear the difference - well let me tell you after more than twenty years around pro audio, countless pro and semi pro audio cards - you can hear it clearly. The difference is there if you listen (and more importantly know what to listen for). Heck, you can hear difference between OP amps on accurate equipment every day. Not to mention jittery sync clocks and such.

 

Having said that, the main question is: Will you, as an average gamer notice it in your game while in the heat of the battle? Most likely not!

 

So, although I like Tech Syndicate and i'm long time subscriber, I'm not completely with them on this one.

 

These experts couldn't hear the difference.

 

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

 

Here's a really good blog about it.

 

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/05/subjective-vs-objective-debate.html

[SkateZilla]

These experts couldn't hear the difference.

 

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

 

Here's a really good blog about it.

 

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/05/subjective-vs-objective-debate.html

 

 

Testing between a cheap and top of the line Home Theater System,

is not the same as testing a onboard Audio Chip and a Discrete hardware Audio Chip.

[danilop]

They were testing hifi equipment, not sound cards. Huge difference.

 

P.S.

HiFi is different matter - lot of snake oil in that industry.

 

P.P.S

SNIPED by Zilla :D

[SkateZilla]

+100, +20 Headshot

 

PROMOTED!!,

 

Crash, BF4.exe Has encountered a Problem and needs to Close.

[danilop]

Audio path in average budget HiFi component (mainly DA conversion and shielding) is much better than any PC audio card could ever pull off, especially in consumer department.

 

That's the reason why majority of professional cards have external AD/DA converters - PC internal environment is huge EMI (electromagnetic interference, especially of high frequency variety) generator. It's practically impossible without great cost to completely shield PC soundcard. That's the main reason why onboard audio ALWAYS sound bad. It's non-debatable really. You can improve situation by using good, dedicated card, but not much improvement can be expected in analogue domain.

 

So basically, you want to output digital from your PC if you want "audiophile" (hate the word, but there you go) quality.

 

Great, you may say - so digital is then. WRONG. You would be appalled how bad PC digital can sound due to almost universally poor digital clock (technically called "jitter") of onboard chips. You have to sync from external quality clock which, unfortunately is not possible on majority of consumer / especially onboard stuff. That's the reason why pro studios have something like this: http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/big-ben.php master clock to sync all their digital equipment.

Edited December 18, 2013 by danilop

[HiJack]

+100, +20 Headshot

 

PROMOTED!!,

 

Crash, BF4.exe Has encountered a Problem and needs to Close.

Thanks for the driver recommendation SkateZilla. And don't waste your time on these buggy games (BF4) :music_whistling:

[Bucic]

Yep. The "problem" of "RealTek" sound cards is that RealTek sells controller chips and driver-kits to OEMs. It is up to the OEM to build a sound card from this,

I have worst experiences with on-board audio devices built on Realtek's chipsets. 2 out of 3 I had gave unbearable, high-pitched, no-bass sound. And I am far from being an audiphile, believe me!

 

I have a Creative XtremeGamer PCI card that I can't use anymore due to the location of my PCI slot in relation to my PCI-E x16 slot for my GPU. What would be an equivalent card to replace that except in a PCI-E x1 for about $100? I don't really have a preference on ASUS or Creative, but I never really had issues with the Creative card in most games. I think Killing Floor was the only one and I had to disable a setting in the game to stop it from crashing.

 

$100 isn't a hard limit either, I can go up to $200 no problems if it's worth the benefits. I play with a headset on all the time, but I do have a stereo I use sometimes for playing music when I want to relax. This is the headset I'll be using after Christmas. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826249083

Save the Earth, buy an extension cable, like others have suggested :)

 

If you decide to replace it though, you couldn't be in a better position, now that the bullshit with EAX/Creative monopoly has ended. Basically a $100 is enough to get you a solid audio, be it PCI/PCI-E or USB. I'd start with a card such as Asus Xonar DX, throw few higher-level cards into the comparator engine and see if there's anything you require that DX doesn't sport.

 

On some quasi-surround stuff (for stereo headphones) like the Creative's CMS - some Asus cards have Dolby Headphone

[SkateZilla]

I have worst experiences with on-board audio devices built on Realtek's chipsets. 2 out of 3 I had gave unbearable, high-pitched, no-bass sound. And I am far from being an audiphile, believe me!

 

 

Save the Earth, buy an extension cable, like others have suggested :)

 

If you decide to replace it though, you couldn't be in a better position, now that the bullshit with EAX/Creative monopoly has ended. Basically a $100 is enough to get you a solid audio, be it PCI/PCI-E or USB. I'd start with a card such as Asus Xonar DX, throw few higher-level cards into the comparator engine and see if there's anything you require that DX doesn't sport.

 

On some quasi-surround stuff (for stereo headphones) like the Creative's CMS - some Asus cards have Dolby Headphone

 

 

There are Also External X-Fi Units that connect via USB2.0

 

ie:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Creative-Sound-Blaster-X-Fi-Surround-5-1-Pro-USB-/221337735503?pt=US_Sound_Card_External&hash=item3388c1d14f

[leafer]

Testing between a cheap and top of the line Home Theater System,

is not the same as testing a onboard Audio Chip and a Discrete hardware Audio Chip.

 

So isn't that the same as comparing cheap on board to dedicated card? I listened to the virtual barbershop with on-board audio and jogging headphones, and I still get the amazing 3d illusion. That's the point those two guys were trying to convey isn't it? Did you read the blog by NwAvGuy?

Edited December 20, 2013 by leafer

[Bucic]

Re dolby headphone

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=76782

[kk0425]

Save the Earth, buy an extension cable, like others have suggested :)

 

If you decide to replace it though, you couldn't be in a better position, now that the bullshit with EAX/Creative monopoly has ended. Basically a $100 is enough to get you a solid audio, be it PCI/PCI-E or USB. I'd start with a card such as Asus Xonar DX, throw few higher-level cards into the comparator engine and see if there's anything you require that DX doesn't sport.

 

On some quasi-surround stuff (for stereo headphones) like the Creative's CMS - some Asus cards have Dolby Headphone

 

I don't believe I can use the cable option unfortunately with my current rig. I would need a PCI-E card. I'm looking because I really miss the rich sounds I had with my XtremeGamer card. Onboard lacks the oomph needed for a good experience.

[Bucic]

Im just gonna leave a link here

[YOUTUBE]d1rXcJuEsy0[/Y OUTUBE]

 

Im not an expert about this topic but i feel like these guys have something to say about audio...

Just watched the video. There is sure bull there - in the vid. My favorite one is about 5.1+ for surround sound. It goes something like this: "How many ears humans have? Two. So how many channels do we need. Yeah, only TWO!".

 

And please stop implying that if there's barely any difference between $500 and $5000 HiFi audio systems, there's no difference between on-board and dedicated sound cards as well.

 

I don't believe I can use the cable option unfortunately with my current rig. I would need a PCI-E card. I'm looking because I really miss the rich sounds I had with my XtremeGamer card. Onboard lacks the oomph needed for a good experience.

I personally recommend the ASUS Xonar series. Just go with Xonar DX (the cheapest one, ~$70) or compare all of the Xonars (see the att.) and decide whether you need any additional features that are worth additional money spent.

Am I biasade against Creative? Yes! First, their suport policy is fishy, two - I see no reason to 'feed the monopolist'. Asus products are usually better for the same price.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Bucic

[sobek]

Just watched the video. There is sure bull there - in the vid. My favorite one is about 5.1+ for surround sound. It goes something like this: "How many ears humans have? Two. So how many channels do we need. Yeah, only TWO!".

Well, i think you missed the point they were making. Read up on binaural audio and HRTFs if you're interested. I don't think it can fully replace surround, but it definately has some strong merits.

 

Binaural effects can be achieved not only through recording with an artificial head, you can also add that in a sound rendering engine by folding sound sources with the transfer functions that are related to the direction they are coming from. Many games have incorporated this successfully in the past.

Edited December 21, 2013 by sobek

[Bucic]

Sobek,

 

They clearly said that anything more than two channels is obsolete. Nothing about two channels being 'almost as good' as multichannel setups. Then there's also the logical fallacy, always stirring up my feathers. I'm talking about: 2 human years => 2 headphone channels is enough

[javelina1]

Sobek,

 

They clearly said that anything more than two channels is obsolete. Nothing about two channels being 'almost as good' as multichannel setups. Then there's also the logical fallacy, always stirring up my feathers. I'm talking about: 2 human years => 2 headphone channels is enough

 

and to think now, I wasted all that money in my BMW for that 13 speaker sound setup... :music_whistling: :megalol:

 

should've only went for 4... two for me, and two for wifey... ;)

[sobek]

2 headphone channels is enough

 

Two headphone channels can be enough under a certain set of boundary conditions. Again, read up on binaural audio.

 

Surround headphones are BS. There is no crosstalk in surround headphones, however, human sound source location partially depends on interaural time differences. The concept is flawed from the get go unless you start incorporating the ITDs into the signal, at which point you might just as well fold the signal with the HRTF and do away with the surround headphones alltogether.

Edited December 22, 2013 by sobek

[Abburo]

Sobek,

 

: 2 human years => 2 headphone channels is enough

 

They are forcing too much their explanations here. While as base maybe above statement is true, I am asking you if are you able with your only two ears to position a sound in space (up, down, front, back). I suppose you can.

 

Some years ago, maybe 13 or more, some extraordinary sound cards exists on market, using a new software engine at that time called Aureal3D. The engine was able, by using Doppler effects, to create the space source positioning for sounds in only two speakers. Unfortunately, this sound engine have sunked shortly while Creative EAX begins its expansion.

 

If the Aureal3D was able to create the desired effect in headphones it was obvious that the effect in speakers was far from the same result. Here is were a 5.1 setup helps.

Why 5.1? Simple: low frequencies have undefined source, so 1 subwoofer is enough. High frequencies are the most easy for humans to position in space, so that's why 4 speakers are needed. The central speaker can be missing or is used to add the medium freqs in case that those 4 satellites cannot fulfill this spectrum.

 

And there is one more think. Each of us have a different ears sensitivity. Some of us are hearing better lower freqs, other high freqs, and so on. Some of us have a better sound positiong awareness then others. And these biological differences led to different opinions, which is quite normal.

[sobek]

Some years ago, maybe 13 or more, some extraordinary sound cards exists on market, using a new software engine at that time called Aureal3D. The engine was able, by using Doppler effects, to create the space source positioning for sounds in only two speakers. Unfortunately, this sound engine have sunked shortly while Creative EAX begins its expansion.

 

Boulderdash. Nothing to do with the doppler effect. As i said, binaural audio has been used in sound rendering engines for the past few years.

 

And it doesn't work well with speakers, you need headphones or a very intricate beamforming array to cancel out crosstalk. Also if you fold it with a HRTF and then have it filtered by your HRTF again, it somewhat negates the desired effect.

 

Edit: There are other ways of sound spatialization like Ambisonics, but ideally you need a lot more channels (which govern the system order) for that to work.

Edited December 22, 2013 by sobek