some question of the P-51D.

[BitMaster]

So, in a duel between Georges Guynemer in a Spad 7, and an air force 2nd Lt in an F-16 (with no real combat experience), we expect Guynemer to be victorious?

 

YOU GOTTA SWITCH BRAINS ON BEFORE COMPARING !

 

Compare 2 WWI planes and it is true, compare an Albatros vs. a F-18 and the F-18 wins all the time...LoL unless the F-18 driver is nuts and tries cornering out an Albatros.

 

 

I hope you don't make such assumptions in your RL.

 

Apples gotta be compared to Apples, not Oranges !

 

 

Bit

[gavagai]

YOU GOTTA SWITCH BRAINS ON BEFORE COMPARING !

 

Or before parroting a cliche and suggesting it as a universal truth?:smartass:

 

Even between aircraft of the same era, the difference in performance can swamp the difference in pilot quality. There's a reason why virtual pilots use the same aircraft for a serious duel.

 

For example, Echo and I had some fights in Rise of Flight with the Sopwith Triplane versus Albatros D.III. He is a better pilot than I am, but when I was in the Sopwith Triplane I would win. It's a simple matter of using your aircraft's strengths. If you can do that and you are in the better fighter, then you can consistently beat higher-skilled opponents.

Edited December 8, 2013 by gavagai

[CoBlue]

We are flying with joysticks not real sticks, so give us an option at least to scale down the sensitivity to match a joystick.

[NineLine]

We are flying with joysticks not real sticks, so give us an option at least to scale down the sensitivity to match a joystick.

 

 

They do, you can adjust your curves for controls in the game.

[CoBlue]

They do, you can adjust your curves for controls in the game.

I know about the curves....somehow I never got them working with the P-51 to my liking:noexpression:

[Pman]

It takes abit of trial and error to get the curves setup well

 

But remember it is not an easy aircraft to fly, not even close. To fly it on the edge of its performance limitations takes skill and alot of practice.

 

You cant expect, regardless of settings, to be able to get it up in the air and throw it around successfully on the first go

 

Pman

[tintifaxl]

I am so looking forward to the P-51 replica stick and throttle. Hopefully they'll be available at the launch of DCS 1944.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=105956

[NineLine]

It takes abit of trial and error to get the curves setup well

 

But remember it is not an easy aircraft to fly, not even close. To fly it on the edge of its performance limitations takes skill and alot of practice.

 

You cant expect, regardless of settings, to be able to get it up in the air and throw it around successfully on the first go

 

Pman

 

Bolded part just cant be stated enough can it...

[cichlidfan]

It takes abit of trial and error to get the curves setup well

 

It also takes some understanding of what you are changing. Any curve will have advantages and disadvantages so a longer stick is, by far, the better solution.

[Pman]

It also takes some understanding of what you are changing. Any curve will have advantages and disadvantages so a longer stick is, by far, the better solution.

 

Absolutely right

 

It's a compromise, I don't have space for a full length stick, but that said I don't suffer with any problems re curves etc with dcs

[BitMaster]

Hey,

 

A tip from an avid R/C flier:

 

We use progressive/degressive curves for almost any AC we fly, regardless if Heli or Plane.

 

In addition, DualRate is also applied, usually dependent on the position of the throttle stick and/or measured airspeed through onboard telemetry.

 

As a rule of thumb, I set most of my AC to ⅓ degressiv, which means that about till ⅓ of travel the curve is smoothed with less output than input. The drawback is, that past this point the curve will catch up to reach 100% with only ⅔ travel left and thus the curve gets a lot steeper.

 

The more you take away around centre, the more you add to the end of travel.

 

I can actually fly all DX games with my R/C Radio since I have an PC-Interface for it.

Allowing all Travel-Limiters, Endpoint adjustment ,Mixers ( e.g. Rudder --> Aileron, elevator--> throttle etc.. ). It's just not suited for PC Gaming other than R/C Sims like Aero Professional ™

 

My Settings for DCS:

I gave my centre 3% dead range to compensate the flaws of my stick and added 10% degressive curve on aileron and elevator, 15% for the rudder to smooth it even more and 5% dead range rudder ( stick pots suck )

 

It would be nice but not realistic if you could set more modes with different settings, like take-off, DogFight, landing, cruising etc.. The preset trimmer in the Sim somehow models this to some extend for take-off ( empty, loaded, fully loaded ext drop tanks etc.. 5° nose trim thing ).

 

Bit

[Pman]

My general settings is something like 30 curve on aileron and elevator and with dead zone of about 3-5

 

about 3 degrees of right rudder for take off and thats about it

 

Pman

[Echo38]

A tip from an avid R/C flier:

We use progressive/degressive curves for almost any AC we fly, regardless if Heli or Plane.

In addition, DualRate is also applied, usually dependent on the position of the throttle stick and/or measured airspeed through onboard telemetry.

 

At our local radio-controlled model flying club, opinion is split, with some RC pilots using curves et al. and others using direct input. I myself fly my RC aircraft only with direct input (linear/no curve, no dead zone), just like my sims.

 

It was flying a (real, full-size) airplane for the first time which originally caused me to immediately remove all curves from all input devices permanently. I'll never go back. I was in the top ten on the world leaderboard for Rise of Flight, with a gunnery accuracy figure of ~27%, so I assure you as something of an expert that it's absolutely possible to perform very well in sims (as well as with RC aircraft) with no curves.

 

I believe I wrote it earlier in the thread, but in case I'm misremembering, I'll restate: I recommend direct input (linear/no curve, and no dead zone) for pitch & roll, because any advantage gained via curve in the straight-and-level area will be lost around the turning-in-combat area, where you need precision the most.

[Der_Fred]

I'm a response freak... a slight stick/rudder move and the a/c must react. :-)

[Echo38]

I'm a response freak... a slight stick/rudder move and the a/c must react.

 

[nod] That's how it is in the real aircraft. Even the decades-old Cessnas I flew had crisp, precise responses. I hear talk about loose cables, but every real aircraft I've been at the controls of had almost infinitely superior responsiveness to our SPJ's. Curves exacerbate this difference, rather than alleviating it.

[Merlin-27]

[nod] That's how it is in the real aircraft. Even the decades-old Cessnas I flew had crisp, precise responses. I hear talk about loose cables, but every real aircraft I've been at the controls of had almost infinitely superior responsiveness to our SPJ's. Curves exacerbate this difference, rather than alleviating it.

 

I think this is where practice becomes the ultimate fix. The responsiveness is great but that in turn makes the dreaded high speed stall very easy to trigger. We lack the "feel" of those control surfaces and pilots are blind to what forces the aircraft is working against.

 

This discussion made me re-read one of my favorite write-ups...

 

Flying the P-51

[Echo38]

I think this is where practice becomes the ultimate fix. The responsiveness is great but that in turn makes the dreaded high speed stall very easy to trigger.

 

It's actually the curves, not direct input, which make the high-speed stall easier to trigger. Direct input gives you full potential precision at the stall area, whereas the typical curve "borrows" potential precision from around the edge-of-the-stall area in order to create a larger margin of error in the straight-and-level-flight area. The result is that, when stall fighting with a curve on your stick, any motion you make is (unrealistically) magnified; at a point where 5% more back-stick won't cause a stall in real aircraft (and won't in the sim with direct input), 5% more back-stick can cause a stall because the curve is amplifying the motion (it has to, because there is a finite percentage of 100 and you've "borrowed" some of it to give to the center).

 

I certainly agree that our shitty plastic joysticks lack the feel of real aircraft controls; I'm one of the loudest to complain about them! But, my experiences flying real aircraft taught me that direct input is closer to the real thing than curves & dead zones, even with SPJ's.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Echo38

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

i am totally with Echo here!

i always hated to use curvature settings in any sim.in dcs i had to use a curvature setting for the rudder though, as my former pedals spiked quite a lot, and therefore any precise flying was not possible with direct input.

now with my new pedals(MFG Crosswind) i dont need any curvature or deadzone settings.

i always felt, just like Echo, that using curvature settings gives you a disadvantage on the edge of the flight envelope.

[Merlin-27]

It's actually the curves, not direct input, which make the high-speed stall easier to trigger. Direct input gives you full potential precision at the stall area, whereas the typical curve "borrows" potential precision from around the edge-of-the-stall area in order to create a larger margin of error in the straight-and-level-flight area. The result is that, when stall fighting with a curve on your stick, any motion you make is (unrealistically) magnified; at a point where 5% more back-stick won't cause a stall in real aircraft (and won't in the sim with direct input), 5% more back-stick can cause a stall because the curve is amplifying the motion (it has to, because there is a finite percentage of 100 and you've "borrowed" some of it to give to the center).

 

I certainly agree that our shitty plastic joysticks lack the feel of real aircraft controls; I'm one of the loudest to complain about them! But, my experiences flying real aircraft taught me that direct input is closer to the real thing than curves & dead zones, even with SPJ's.

 

Sorry for any confusion, I definitely wasn't giving an opinion about curves. I still feel that practice is the best "fix".

[Pman]

I think practice is def the best course.

 

But that said I dont know of anyone who does precise aerobatics with no curves and forget doing it in formation. Our controls are just not precise enough at default levels.

 

I fly Piper Warriors and A Super Cub in real life and I have to say esp in the Super Cub that you do notice a big difference when not using curves. There is more play in a the real aircraft then with a stick without ANY curves.

 

If I had a full length stick I think it would be fine without any, but with a short desktop sized one I dont think its that close without it.

 

I certainly wouldnt be able to hold steady formation in the Horsemen without a curves setting and I know that goes for the other pilots from VH too.

[Echo38]

WWYYD?

 

THe best default curves are LINEAR for DCS planes and helos, because it gives REAL feeling of the aircraft (taking in mind the difference between joystick and real stick). The best tweaking is to tweak hands... and all info that you can get from the sim - angular velocities , IAS (using sound changing), force feedback joystick stiffness. Even in real Mustang, as Nick Grey said, one must have "silk hands" to fly on the edge.

 

The only case, I would recommend to tweak the curves, is a formation flying. As you never use full stick travel, you can set Y saturation to project the useful range of virtual stick to the full joystick range. It's wise, because there is no posibility to land with a half of an elevator as if you do not fly a combat mission.

And again: I do not say that it is IMPOSSIBLE to fly formation with default curves - I only want to say that it would be EASIER to fly it.

 

THe different headache is rudder pedals... the plastic devices are very far from the real pedals, so even I use curves for them.

 

"And I am right,

And you are right,

And everything is quite correct!"

 

--William S. Gilbert

[BitMaster]

Linear curves only apply to old-style cable driven planes in RL, whereas in fly-by-wire scenarios the degressive curve ( to smooth around the centre ) and DualRate ( limit travel endpoints for some flight attitudes ) are defacto STANDARD, example is the 3.5G limiter in the F16 when full wings, etc.. or any other f-b-w airplane that can handle large wing loads.

The G-Limiter kicks in by forcing a DualRate on you, not allowing you pulling past a point that would result in >3.5G wing load.

 

I do see your point, no reason in arguing. Just when you fly 200mph with a 30 inch wingspan model at 20 feet height in circles you definitely want it to respond smooth. When you land the same airplane with 1/10th of this speed, the effectiveness of control surfaces is widely limited to reduced airflow and pressure on them, thus you either then need more throw ( dual rate, attitude LANDING ) or at least a curve that soothes around zero but still gives access to full throws to compensate low flight speed effectiveness. The envelope is just too wide to get it covered with

just 1 set of throws and responsiveness. If you take something away, take the curve, but leave DualRate ( we don't have this in this game unless you come up with a decent Radio ( Futaba, Jeti, Graupner etc.. ) that does provide all those mixers.

 

In a slow model/real-aircraft this won't be that dramatic but the wider the gap between min and max envelope of your airplane then it definitely makes sense. No modern fly-by-wire Jet doesn't have it I guess, for sure the F-16 has it.

 

It's like arguing about power steering in recent Porsche, you either love it or hate it !

But it's not that it wouldn't go either way with LOTSA PRACTICE !

 

No matter how you fly, fly properly ! There is not always a respawn button

 

 

Bit

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

still, if a F16 with fly by wire curves will be simulated by ED or any other plane with such a feature, then still the linear input without any curvature settings and no deadzone will be the the closest to the real thing, as ED has then already implemented those curvature settings in the plane's flight model itself...using curvature settings for your input devices might become handy to compensate for the lack of precision or range of travel, but in the end it will only deviate from the real thing and ED's interpretation of the real thing.