Nedum

Is there a way to ask something and you are not insult the one who ask something that you obviously don't like? If you think I am an idiot please ignore me, but please don't insult people only because you think their knowledge is not good enough to discuss with you! But anyway! Thanks for this single answer! So If I understand it the right way, then you say there are two trim methods for each FM? The normal flight mode gives us a trim with “something” and if we hit the “S” -button we get a more sensitive trim control with “only” the elevator? During each trim, during normal flight mode, the elevator start moving and after the level position is reached the elevator returns to the center position. Isn’t this a little bit strange/not good if the elevator “helps” or “overreacts” to reach a stable position and after the trim is made he “swings” back which must give the plane another short pitch change? How does this technic work? The elevator moves back to the center position after the trim. How can the plane hold the right position/the level flight? As I can see if I hit the S key only one thing happens; the sensitivity of the stick inputs will increase overall and because of this you must set the trim setting to the neutral position before you hit the S-key, because with less stick move I'll get much more elevator reaction. How the trimming overall works is the same way as before! And this is something that I would never do if I would give a Pilot the ability to override the agility of his plane! I would give him only more agility (after pressing the “S” –key) if he would push or pull the stick over a special point of degrees. This would be easy to make even only with a hardware system and this would save the pilots lives! The pilot could hit the “S”-key in any Situation without kill himself and because this would be easy to make with hydraulic hardware. Why the Russians engineers have built such a “killer system” I will never understand! Another thing I have noticed during the flight tests is that the elevator is moving by himself like a pendulum during moving on ground. Every bump gives the elevator an up and down, even if I pull the elevator full up or push him full down. I’ve watched some RL vids and couldn’t see any of those behaviors at those RL Su27s. Could this be a reason for those “big steps/swings” for the trimming behavior of the DCS Su27? Or is this only at ground? What is the reason for this behavior at ground until the plane is in the air? As I can see if I use the trim on ground the elevator change the AoA “extreme” and in the air the elevator returns again to the center position. Shouldn’t the elevator be stable if the Pilot pushes or pulls the stick even during the start? Another thing is, if I pull the stick and hold this position the elevator kicks short in and then the elevator returns to the center position with a short “swing”. Is this the RL behavior? Shouldn’t the elevator hold the position until the stick will be pushed forward? As I have said I would really like to have the whole picture, but right now most of the answers are only pieces of other discussions/a big puzzle and its really hard to put all this pieces together without a helping hand. Could make more discussion much nicer if people only have to read one single explanation without to puzzle it together alone. And because of this many discussion could be really good without me idiot asking stupid (?) questions! Perhaps we could make a section like “Questions for runaways” in which we “idiots” can ask something without to insult the pros? Would be nice to ask something without getting a kick in the nuts all the time!

This may be right, but that's not really the point as I can see if I take a look at the start posting. It's more about the different behaviors for the trim and why is one of them extreme good and smooth and the other one bad/not so smooth. If one is much better, why not use this one for all "Flight Modes"? I myself want to understand the reason for this behavior. And in which way those "trim tabs" working and if they allow a smoother/better trim, why we can't use them the whole flight. Till today there was no good explanation about those differences... or I can't find them. I would really like to take a deeper look at this point! :thumbup:

I need a closer explanation for this! Please can you show me those "trim tabs" at the Su27 please. I never heard about those things at the Su27. And if they are there, what is the logical reason to make the "S"hutt down of the ACS to a "Pilot Kill Switch" because the plane will behave completely different after a change of the "Flight Mode"? I only talk from me as if I would design such a mode... all I would do, would be to make it as secure as it could be for a SUPER expensive Pilot if he really need this "Kill Switch". And why is the trim so different if they could make it equal with no problem (the real Su27 engineers). Why do they give a pilot an extreme complicated system if it would cost no money to build it in such a way so it could act the same way for any Flight Mode? And who is this Su27 Pilot who has said that the real DCS SU27 behaves in this situation like the real one? Never read this interview/posting!? I cannot believe that the Russians have built in "Pilot Kill Button" in their planes. And if a plane would really react like the DCS one does, I would take this button away of all Su27 if I were a Russian engineer. I need much more information for this, and especially of those "trim tabs"! How do they work and why do I need another/worse trim if the other one works much better/smoother? Only to say “a real Su27 Pilot said so” seems not to be enough, does it?

Wow.. thank you so much! :thumbup:

The BF109 is for me the plane that is by far not near the behavior I can see in RL vids. And this auto stick pull behavior is the worst thing for me. I will never understand why we must simulate how a flight stick would be act in a simulated world. That would be like we RC plane drivers would use a simulation for our radios to fly our planes. Would be a total stupid thing for us! Our flight sticks are like the sticks on my radio controller, so why should I try to simulate a simulated input within a simulation? If you like it, it's ok, but to force the sim pilots to use this is a little bit strange for me. I don't like it and for me it's the thing for most problems I have with the DCS planes! But I am thankful for all his work.. that’s for sure.. even I don't like every point of his work!

Hmm... not bad... but fare away from a good looking Cuban 8! The extreme rolling and shacking at low speed we've seen in your vid I couldn't see in any RL BF109 vid. And the extreme loss of speed and the extreme need of time to gain this speed on the other side look for me very strange. We have a plane trimmed down and "falling" down with an extreme good powered engine but in your vid (looking very similar to mine) you need an extreme long time to pull the next loop, because you can’t pull the loop until you reach again a 50° - 45° dive. You must open your pull very soon after you have passed the return point and your “loop” becomes a flat one. The problem with the DCS is you can't even fly a round loop with a starting speed of 600 kph. As soon as you pull the stick the plane start to loop and at a point you have no fine control anymore about the speed with how hard you pull the stick. You will lose extreme much energy. If you try to manage your speed with the throttle, the BF 109 start to roll and you will lose more speed because you must now use the ruder much more and the ruder is now like a brake. If you try to control your speed or how wide the loop should be with the stick, the new feature of “auto pulling” ruins all the fine control a real pilot would have and could use (I wish I could disable this “feature”). Only 0.5 millimeter of stick way can ruin all your good work. I don't know why the BF109 must loop by itself and why is there this "auto steering/dampening" or whatever this is called but that thing take away my direct control of the plane. Why does the plane starts shaking at high speed in flight direction if I pull the stick and the plane loses fast the speed and if I have lost “enough” speed it tries to roll the whole time in such a way that I must use the ruder in a way that the ruder becomes a brake? Is there really no momentum to push the plane forward and are there no air drag at the wings and no lift force to stabilize the plane? Sometimes it feels as that there are no wings or I am flying in a vacuum with no air drag. Where are all this forces gone? And for what again are those front flaps good if the plane becomes a bitch a 300 kph, a speed miles away from the stall speed? As I've said. I only fly RC single motor planes, but the physic is by 100% the same, so why do they are not behave like the DCS BF109? A Cuban 8 should start with a 45° - 40° dive in a loop. You should roll in this loop. This roll is now your cross point for the next roll after a loop! You will pull this loop until you are again head over at 45° - 40°, and dive to the height/point you did start the first loop, now roll 180° and start the next loop the same way until you dive again head over at 45° to 40° to the point you did the 180° roll (cross point), here you roll again 180° .. that was it. The important part is, that the dive should be around 45° - 40° and the dive after the loop again. And that’s the point where the DCS BF109 lacks! The bird is losing energy like hell but it could be enough to fly the loop to the end, but now the shaking and rolling of the bird starts and at this point the DCS pilot must open the loop too early and the loop will look like a hand written "L" on the side. That is the problem in this vid and for me too each time I try a Cuban 8. If I try to fly a good looking Cuban 8 it ends all the time with a rolling and shaking plane and I don't know why I can fly with ease loops with RC planes, even if I fly only with 10% of the power I could use. You know... if I fly my planes on the back in a loop they are “flying”! In DCS the 109 start to drop out of the sky as soon as she has passed the top point of the loop, because no power anymore.. no force… no flying. Suddenly she behaves like in an air free room. And you too as I could see in this vid! There is no good/plausible flight behavior because the plane wants the whole time doing a loop by itself. And I don't know why!? Because as soon as I pull the stick even a micrometer this strange stick auto-/self-pull feature comes in? What does it try to "simulate"? I don't know what it is, but for me it doesn't feel and look like any near like I can see at RL planes or at my RC planes and that is extreme strange because physic should be physic, shouldn’t it!?

Guys! It's enough! Please don't highjack this thread anymore! Your "problem" has nothing to do with this discussion! We are talking about a massive lost of FPS around trees and you about stuttering at even high FPS without any tree. Even my blind old grandpa had seen that this are total different problems and as I can see is this a nV problem/fix. So please don't violate this thread and the forum rules anymore and make your own thread for your special problem and the fix! Thanks! :thumbup:

Nice to hear that the nV users have the same (not that you've got the same problem), so this can give this story a new direction! It seems so, that this is a prob with the 3D renderer. Some things are now not "made for the GPU" and so the CPU must do all the work. :thumbup:

I don't think that the shadows are the problem, because even you disable the shadows the problem is still there, but not a so hard FPS hit anymore, but it's still there! Take the quick free flight mission with the D9. Turn 180° and fly to the lake near the shore. At the sea side there is a big city with many trees inside and on the other side of this lake is the big forrest. I have around 85+ FPS at the city but as soon as I heading to the forrest, the FPS went down. It's like many "meshes" are only CPU generated (soft) and not by the GPU (hard). This could explain why the VRAM is most of the time less than 50% filled. A single row of 20 trees without shadows kills 60% of my FPS (free flight quick mission with the BF109). That has nothing to do with the shadows. I believe that the "kill shadows mod" will really help but not fix the problem. For me the mod didn't change a bit. The FPS lost behavior is still there. I would like to have a mod whic´h would change the trees in such a way that they will become a 3D object. So we could see the difference of VRAM usage and FPS drop. Becuase if they are all 3D objects the GPU should use them and should fill the VRAM. Now it's looks like the drops coming from the CPU tree math and later the CPU must "translate" them to the engine also by software to mix them up with the 3D rednerer. And this slows down my system. The shadows are no problem for my rig the difference between off and Ultra is like it should be, nothing special. The trees alone are the problem for me.

I would only really like to see a track in which the BF109 can do such nice maneuvers as I can do with the P51 or the FW190. That's all. Ok the part with the tracks is really bad atm but a nice vid could do it also. I myself doubt that there is one of you who can fly good loops and Cuban 8' like he can do with the FW190 or the P51. Yesterday I've got another problem during a test flight for the "tree FPS dropdown behavior". Was the quick mission free flight map for the K-4. I was in the special menu in which I can set the elevators and the ailerons basic trim. Why is the plane rolling if I only set the basic trim for the elevators? Is there a translation problem for the German language, because if I change the elevator (Höhenruder) trim the plane rolls left or right. Another thing is, for no reason, at which speed I am flying, if I push the stick to a “special” negative AOA the plane trims itself out. As soon as I have reached this special AoA I can put my hands on my knees and the k-4 is flying in a straight line till it hits the ground. Is there a special explanation for this behavior? And if I dive with high speed (700 kph) the plane suddenly change the direction in which it will be forced to roll. Most of the time hard tendencies to roll left and then it change to roll right… but why? Even for this behavior I can't find an explanation. The torque direction is changing but why? The more speed I have the more air drag is “stabilizing” the plane, because of the stronger lift you need much more force to change the flight direction but it seems so if I gain more speed and more lift the plane stability becomes more weak and it will roll even harder and this although the RPM are the same and only the overall speed of the BF109 is changing. The engine power wasn’t raised or pulled down.. the same 1.2 ATA. Is this really how a real single prop plane would act? I've only flown some gliders and single porp planes only as a RC pilot, but even with my overpowered single prop planes I can't see such a behavior. I'll bet that my RC porp planes will have a minimum of 2 times more ps per weight as the real ones. If I put the throttle in one second from zero to 100%, and my RC plane would behave like the BF109, it should do a 360° roll but it still flies straight with only a little shake/wip of the wings but after that the plane flies straight without a tendency to roll as soon as I change the prop power. The forces acting on the plane are enough to stabilize it over the whole flight. I only trim the planes during the test flight to counter the roll behavior. After that I only need to watch a little to counter any roll, if at all, and for me the more interesting part is the elevator. Pitch is a thing I must watch the whole flight time but roll.... no and for sure not a single roll direction change because of high speed changes. Ok this are only small RC planes (1,6+ meters wing span) but the forces, which are acting, are the same as for the big ones. And this is a behavior I can nearly see with the P51 and the FW190 (will buy a RC FW190 during XMT :)) but the DCS BF109 seems to be a plane of another universe. A "special" dive AoA gives her a zero trim position even the speed is raising and at a special speed the torque change the direction, even the RPM are the same. If there are explanation for such a behavior I would really like to read about it. Please look at this: and this: This planes have all a way more power (weight thrust) as one of these WWII birds and there is no such rolling/torque effect like we have in this game

I've mentioned that for this "tree problem of low FPS" there must not be many trees. In the BF109 k-4 free flying map even a simple row of 20 trees are enough to slow my rig completely down. From high 100 FPS down too low 20 FPS. The micro stutter seems to be another problem. Tried 4 different AMD driver 15.7 up 15.10 and the problem is still there. I cannot say if this has something to do with the drivers or with the trees but if nV and AMD have the same problem, then I would think it's something with the trees. A single line of 20 trees and the FPS will be eaten like there is no tomorrow anymore... seems to be a little too much for me. ;)

I don't really know if this is the reason, but I've heard this has something to do that DCS isn't starting right now in full screen anymore. To switch to full screen use "left ALT+return". Perhaps this fix your problem.

I have done several tests! OC and non OC -> no change 3 different drivers -> slightly different FPS but the same behavior as before The interesting part is, that 1.2.6 has the same behavior but not so extrem. With 1.5 I have some more FPS as with 1.2.6 at the start of the quick intercept D-9 mission (1.5 = 125 FPS max versus 1.2.6 97 FPS max). If I turn 180° to the Forrest, the behaviors of both engines are the same. The more I close the range to the Forrest, the more I can notice a FPS drop. If I set both engines at the same game settings, the VRAM use is the same. All max. like in 1.2.6 the VRAM use is for both engines ~1650 MiB. If I disable the shadows in 1.5 the loss of FPS is per percent the same as with 1.2.6 with disabled shadows. So I think the shadow thing is only a point over the real reason... the trees themselves! Two different engines with the same behavior (more or less), that seems to be a program (Direct3D?) problem. I would really like to see which VRAM use the nVidia GC have. Max. 2100 VRAM use is extreme low for a DX11 engine. And because the behavior is per percent the same with both engines, it seems so that not all is DX11 and there could be a DX9 fallback which is the reason for this behavior. Looks more like an old behavior in a new dress! ;)

It's simple as hell... if the vehicle does strange things which are for no reason plausible take the one that you can control if you must only use your instinct. K-4 isn't a vehicle you can drive alone with your muscle memory. This bitch does things you will never expect. All seems to be "not enough" or "too much"! There is nothing inbetween this both stats! There is not enough trim control and to much self turn behavior. There is not enough fine control with the stick or rudder but too much acting on rpm changes and so too much rolling and wing shacking. You must me pay a lot so I would only think about to "ride" this bitch! :music_whistling: So I will always take the D-9. She feels right even it's a hard time and if it comes to a fight you need a "friend" you know what she is doing. And even she is brave, she can be a beast if you give her all of what you have! To "ride" her is pure fun! This is the right one.. you know what I mean? ;)

The nav lights are a victim of the new LOD system... that new behavior is not only visible with the OR.

During the D-9 intercept quick mission max 2178 MiB VRAM in use. The more I close to the forrest the more the FPS went down. From 97 -> 23. I don't know what it is, but as long as the shadows are on it doens't matter if they are low or Ultra. The FPS are always the same also the FPS lost. No change if I change the vision range too. The VRAM use is really low, like there are to many things not loaded to the VRAM and the CPU is doing the whole work. I will test some things later (other drivers) and give you a report.

4 GiB VRAM

Nice Vid but where was the nice looking loop? A really good looking loop locks like a circle and the start and end point are all on the same axes. Ok you are "only" (very good at all) working with the speed, rudder and trim but you can clearly see that strange behavior of this bird at "slow" speeds. What is the reason for this shaking over the whole size of the plane? Left and right over the flight axes and up and down over the wings? Why? And this with this front flaps… really? This bird burns energy as if this is a stone wall in the air.. but it can do “loops” by itself. without the overpower engine this bird would be only a victim in a dogfight! No other prop plane in DCS has this ugly flight behavior. This bird feels not natural in any way... on ground or in the air it's the whole time a fight with this plane and not with the enemy! Or short; with this plane the Germans needed no enemies to get a hard fight! ;)

There is a Bug in the SU25T Campaing in which you can't see the Shilkas. And I have mentioned that there seems to be a problem with the LOD , which is in some cases a little bit of strange! The Model loses in special angles the size and you also can't see the position lights anymore but if you only change your view angle and not the distance the model becomes suddnely really big (normal). So perhaps this has something to do with the new LOD system?

And If you look at the shadows, we can see they are different? I have noticed this several times now. With 1.5 it seems so that we have differnt shadows for the same thing. As you can see in the picture, the upper one shadow has much more edges as the lower one. Old and new stuff mixed up together?

If you report a problem you must always report your system specs too! Without this, your problem report is only awaste of time, because none can give you proper answer without your systems specs! Use your signature to have your specs with each post of you! ;)

This may have something to do with the in game time. As far as I have noticed if the shadows become longer the more we get FPS hits. If you play the D-9 intercept quick mission, you will notice a big FPS hit if you fly low (1000 meters) over the big forest near kabouichi. It gives me a hit of 75+FPS. Lowest FPS was 07 FPS.

You still didn't answer my question! None of you did it! Why? Is it so hard to make a short track flying the BF109 like in this Vid? For me I must say... yes.. but if I read all this answers I can't understand why till today not one of you answers my questions!? Reason? Again, we have a vid from a living German ace in which he is telling us that all this rolling and flip over the wings behaviors are not like that he have experience with. So now we have Americans, English and Russian "test pilots" and all telling us different stories. Not even one story fit with the one from the other one and the voice of the German ace and the logic will be totally ignored! Why is it not possible that we can trim this bird at a speed higher as 480kph? Any logic solution for this? I really want to hear it! All I read in many books is that an English pilot says that the BF109 was extreme stable and there was no point in which she was rolling suddenly, even he pushed the throttle hard. And he could trim her out at any speed. And American pilot told that she was very nervous with a hard tendency to roll. And the Russian test pilot told that he could not trim her out at higher speeds. The German pilots told us she was a very neutral flying AC, with no tendency to roll much after a hard push at the throttle “…. she was very forgiving and you could trim her at any speed….” So now do we trust the Ferrari test driver or the BMW test driver if we ask how a Ferrari should handle and feel? You all gave me sources from Pilots from different nations with total different experiences with the same enemy AC! If we would use pure math then we must cut out what is by one test pilot positive for the same thing and for the other one at the same time negative. Which alone should be a surprise and should let us think about how good these tests really were (propaganda?). 3 tests with 3 different results.. hmm!? And the end result would be that the K-4 was the worst fighter plane in WWII history! And this is exact how this plane feels to me right now! I have flown the BF109 in IL2 and Cliffs over Dover but this BF109 behavior we’ve in DCS is nothing near any BF109 I could fly in any other sim. All other prop planes we have in DCS feel more or less like in Cliffs over Dover or IL2 but the K-4 is an UFO. It doesn’t match in any way with any AC in any other sim. I have never flown such a bad/beasty AC in a sim before. If this is right how she here handles, she was for sure a big mistake in RL! But it’s only a game and if you like it you like it and this is good! So I am out here but would still see a track from one of you flying a good looking loop and a Cuban 8!

Sorry but even this vid (I know this one) do not show any of the behaviors we have in game. I would really like to see a track of one of you doing a loop and a cuban 8. Compared to all other prop planes we have in DCS the K-4 is the one with the most strange and complicated flight behavior even if I try to do a simple loop I have to fight her all the time like in a cage fight. So if most of you think this is all ok... please show me how to do it the right way.... :helpsmilie:

Did you read what we have written? We know this all very well and because of this we did a comparison with the old one! 1.5 has a new LOD system which makes it more hard to spot objects as with the old version. What is so hard to understand that? The engine does not show the objects at the same range at the same size as before anymore! It's not even the haze overall, it's like that the object size will be reduces with less steps much earlier and that even we/I use the "large" option. Please test it by yourself and please don't tell people how dumb they are or at last, don't write your postings in such a manner that it must look like that you think that we are all idiots!