Nedum

Amen brother! Till today there is no physical law that could explain why the Su27 gets more agil around pitch at low speeds. Yaw becomes like jelly but pitch is sensetive like a micrometer clock. Your are near stall but one hard pull at the stick an the Su27 goes inverted/flips over. Because? :huh: So which physical law is made for this behaviour? Dark matter? All I know is, that this DCS Su27 is at some points against all physical laws! Try to fly a barrel roll with a good steady speed of 300 mph and you will get some big eyes. Ok.. not that hard, fly a good barrel roll with the DCS Su27. A simple barrel roll becomes a master piece with this plane. But why? :huh:

Where did you get this iformation from? 4G's is "normal workspace" for an Fighter Pilot without any g-suits. With old g-suits is nothing special. With new g-suits ("giraffe") a Pilot can see now colors and can stay at 9 gs without special breathing technics for more than 3 minutes and clear the cubic! look from 11:30 minutes A healthy and trained pilot has no problems with 4 gs.

The AB should be full open in 4 seconds. That's the speed I could see in all the Vids. The open speed is much faster than the close speed in RL (more or less double the time to close the air break). :pilotfly:

And why is the K-4 the only plane that "simulate" this "feature"? As many people said before. This is wrong! Isn't ED knowing we on our chair can't use RL input devices? I don't think so. I will bet that 99,99% of all DCS "Pilots" using a game Stick device! So why is ED simulating this GAME as if we are all were using a RL input device? And if you were right, why is the K-4 the only plane with a 4g wing tip rip off "simulation" if you have trimmed your plane? Without trimming the wingtips ripping away at 6Gs, even that is to fast. There is something wrong, like with this german special dirt glass. :music_whistling:

May I ask why all this people with all this different audio devices hear the same things in other games or in that vids? If you were nearly right, than some of us souldn't hear any difference, even with this bad compressed vids!? At best will, I can't follow your logic! The sound in DCS is in many ways and for many moduls.. not good! Even the Su27 sounds are a way more diffenrent in RL. My headphones are very good ones, and my soundcard too. In all other games I hear everything, the sounds are amazing but in DCS it's like I am hearing some extrem compressed mp3 files. No highs, no deeps! Many sounds in between of the other sounds are missing. The sound part in DCS isn't good right now and the sound of the K-4 is not "no good", the sound is really bad. Some of you guys should try to join an Air Show event. Even BF4 has much better sounds! How could this guys do this? I have heared the BF109 G6, the FW190 A8, the F15/F16/F18, the Mig 21/23/29 and the Su27SM in RL and not one DCS sound is any near this RL sounds. But in WT they are very near. How could this be if my sound hardware is/could be so bad, so I can't hear how the DCS sound really sounds? Why is it so hard to say "...yes, they should work on that..."? This would be the first step to get a better product and even ED would befenit from that. Why so many people fight so hard against the reality? :dunno: Sound is a big thing for a simulation!

That is wrong! The original telling was "a Pilot can withstand more horizontal forces without blacking out as vertical forces." And years later there is only left what you have said but this is wrong! At a car crash the more deadly crashes are about from the side. You break your neck very easy if you hit a human hard from the side. The human skeleton is made for vertical forces not to withstand horizontal forces. To break a humans neck the hangman knot must be on the side, because the neck wouldn't break if the hangman knot were on the back. You need 10 times more forces to break a neck if the knot is at the back of the neck.

Yes, you are right, I meant the AoI. I am at work now. And will test this today again. If you guys get this high altitudes so easy, there must be something extrem wrong with my game. I tried both planes at the same angle, with the same weight to fly until they stall. The DCS Su27 loses its good feed round about 1/3 earlier than the F15C. Perhaps I play another game or my devices are crap (TM Warthog HOTAS)? :huh: Thrust to weight ratio is all I am talking about. The Su27 has a little bit better thrust to weight ratio(?), so should the Su27 go up straight to the sky a little bit better as the F15C, but she doens't. Fly them like rockets straight to the sky (same weight) and look which bird will go higher and then look at the difference between both results. I will test this again today.

Hello! I've tested a little bit and I want to know why the full AB thrust is so weak like it is now! Is it right like it is? I've tested with a F15C @ 23.000 kg (no weapons, 2 external tanks) and with the Su27 also with 23.000 kg start weight. With a flying start at full AB + max speed (1420 kph), at 300 meter and an AoA of 45° the Su27 stalls at ~ 25.000 feet. The same as above and the F15C stalls at ~ 45.000 feet. All conditions a 100% the same (weather, wind, flight direction, time, etc.). I've had read that the Su27 has a little bit better thrust to weight ratio, so how can this happen and why is the difference so extrem big (20.000 feet)? This was a short test after some display testing with strange behaviors and the feeling of a massive lack of power in each situation. Is this a Bug or is this like it should be?

Happy New Year!.... http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2277756#post2277756 .... and a big B I G "Thank You" to Wags for this Vid and to his Crew.. Happy New Year to you all! THANKS!:cheer3nc:

Thanks, but what you are doing has nothing to do with a RL display I have seen. You are not 10% near. First you use 99% of the time the AB, not nearly realistic. Second you never flip the Su27 up so the nose falls down (without AB) and accelerate to level flight with a little nose down. If you try this with the Su27 you will stall. You can't fly the Su27 any near like a RL display. I would give up this "Cobra maneuver" for a real good Su27 near RL behavior. The Corba stalls to easy. she is now the total opposite as to that was I have seen with my own eyes in RL. I know that this is all beta, but I always hear the ED crew/testers talking that this strange behavior is fine as it is. But this behavior isn't any near the reality. And I can't understand why so many people in this forum telling the harder a AC is to fly the more near the reality this plane must be. Myself flew only gliders and my hobby is RC flying (Jets and Helis), but I never saw and felt such a strange behavior like at this plane (DCS Su27). This AC is completely different to all other Planes from DCS and from that I have seen/ I know. So as I said before. Anyone show me a display (as track) flown like in RL and I will never ever say this FM is wrong, but till this day I will not believe that this FM is any near the reality!

I ask where do the russian pilots train this strange behavior of a Su27 and how to get out of this flat, inverted, stall? The DCS Su27 is the only modern AC I know, that loves to go inverted, even there is no reason for this behavior. So it seems that the nose of the DCS Su27 is the thing that gets most effected of a stall, why? If you look outside at the DCS Su27 during a stall, you can see the nose is stalling, not the whole plane. The DCS can fall straight to the ground, with no forward momentum and the nose will go up and down. Why? I know an old physic law: action = reaction but that doesn't seem to work with the DCS Su27. And the engines blowing out without any negativ Gs. I was flying with a 45° AoA and full AB, with full forward and up momentum, and the engine blow out! How could they affected from megatives Gs? The DCS Su27 is much to agil at low speed at min stick inputs but has nearly no reaction of the stickinput. It's like steering the AC in jelly. A strange behavior for a plane that is famed for his low speed, high AOA agility. I have tried hours of hours to fly this bird as nearly as in a RL Su27 display, but that's impossible. The lack of input reaction and engine power/acceleration at low, high AOA maneuvers makes this impossible for me. It feels all the time wrong to fly with this bird. I fly the 109, 190, P51, Su25/T, A10C, F15C and I know to land, start and fly this planes, some are very tough but the Su27 is like a AC from another planet. Nothing feels right compared to any other AC in DCS. Landing is much to easy, but with some strange behaviors (nose stays up till ~140 kph, the only things that get damage are the wheels, and this even at low speeds after a long short breaking). The Su27 has the only engine in DCS that needs to go over 78% power to get after that a reaction beyond 78% power. And then this ongoing behavior to do a cobra! I can't believe that the real Su wants to do a Cobra all the time like the DCS Su27 if I pull the stick a little bit to fast (override is off). The DCS Su27 eats speed/generates drag like no other AC in DCS, because of this strange "Cobra thingie". For me the DCS Su27 is feels wrong in to many ways and even with parctice, practice, practice there is no change to fly an display like in RL. If someone can do so, please show me a track!

Thank you for that! Well flown Sir! :thumbup:

And that's the problem for me, most of the time there is no feedback. For me it feels like that the DCS Su27 is a little bit to itchy at low speed at the stick inputs or this flip around to inverted, why? Ok she behaves like a bitch and perhaps that's the reason why she loves it to go inverted? :music_whistling: The DCS Su27 loves inverted stalling like no other PC plane I know. Tried the same with each other plane to go inverted, till now no chance to stay there! If I manage to go inverted, than all planes go out of this stall self-sufficient. The Su27 is the only plane I know, that can have full AB working in a flat stall without any spin, that stays 12 km in this position. What's the secret of the Su27. Even a simple barrel roll is a risk with her. No places for mistakes! 90% of her stalls are flat! She is dangerous, indeed! ;)

A well known behavior for the DCS Su27. Some say that's right so, I doubt that. You have to go above 78% power to get the engines above this force line that makes the plane rolling. After that you can go down to 72% and it feels the acceleration is the same as with 79% power, but know you can lift up the power from 72% to 78% and you feel there is every % a little bit more thrust. If you go under 72% power the engines will go to idle power, even if you raise the power after you was on idle to 77%, there is no thrust input anymore till you get above 78% power again. The same behavior in the air. If you was only one time under 72% power, you must raise the power above 78% to get the engines out of the idle position, after that you must see that you will never get the idle position or you must play this ugly game again. There was a thread with a nice diagram showing this DCS Su27 engine behavior very clear. There is no power till you push the engines one time above 78% power. If I push the throtlle slowly from idle position to 78% position I can hear the engines going up, but I can wait 1 hour and longer and the Su27 stands still like a stone, nothing happened till I get over 78% power and at this moment, the Su27 beginns to speed up very fast,. even if I slow down to 73% power! If you want to taxi the DCS Su27 you must the whole time long go from idle to 79% and vise versa. I hardly doubt that the russian build such "strange" engine behaviors to hold the cockpit work extrem high! ;) There is one video in the forum, that should show this behavior if the Su27 is standing still, but in this video was a wood break in front of a wheel, so I think this video shows nothing right. The pilot has to raise the thrust so high because of this wood break. ;-)

Thank your for your answer und the link. Its all about constant airspeed and power. I know this very well but again many thanks. That's not the problem the DCS Su27 is showing to me. It's about increase and/or decrase power and speed with flaps up and down. Even you lower the flaps there will be always a time over which such a behavior smooth occurs. With the Su27 ist always like a sudden punch in the stomach. You make a "snip" and the AC doing things like there is no physic for short time/you enter a new physic space! Flaps up and "Bang" the nose goes suddenly up, and after flaps down another "Bang" and the nose wents down. No sensetive inputs, it's like with a hammer. It feels like pure digital.. 0 or 1 nothing in between. And it feels like they are using a completely different Wing design, but I know they use a very well known wing design, that helps the Su27 especially at high AOA maneuvers to be stable and that at a very low speeds. Every day I try to fly a shown Su27 display of a Air Show, but the DCS Su27 is a bitch at low speed and it feels there is always not enough power to get out of this maneuvers like they could do in the RL Air Shows. It feels like I have to get out of this special physic space to get some thruster input. With the Su27 I got the most stalls over all other AC in DC AND less much Blackouts even at extrem turns, because the Su27 is eating speed/energie like hell. If I feel/see a BO nearing, I pull for a very short time (less a second) much harder and I am out of this BO behavior, because the speed is gone in less a second.. strange for me. It's like there is a invisible parachute as soon as I pull a short time hard at the stick. I do RC flying a lot (mostly Helis) and the DCS Su27 is sometimes more agil as our RC ACs and not much less agil as our 3D Helis. Till this DCS Su27 our RC birds were the much more agil ACs compared to any RL AC. And we can't see this extrem flaps behavior with our ACs too. And why is there always this nose up and down at a stall, with the same amplitude the whole stall long, without any thrust input? I would like to see the force diagram for this behavior. There are no ways for an amplitude without an continuous impulse to hold the amplitude to stay all the time at the same level. 1. If the power is to high, the amplitude will grow untill she collaps (Su27 would flip over). 2. If the power is to low, the amplitude will become smaller and should be stopping if there is no power impulse anymore. (the Su27 nose would show to the ground even she has a small amplitude). But in DCS she is, even the AC is falling in different air pressure zones, every time at the same level. Who could that be? You can use Full power, full AB, idle power, not a chance for a change! Who is that possible? But my very last question is and will be, why are all other ACs in DCS are so completely different compared to the Su27 at stall and low speed!? I read and heard that the Su27 is one of the most stable ACs at low speeds even at high AOA and that she is so good at this because she has enough power to do so even with high AOA, but in DCS I miss this "over power" behavior at low speeds. For me it's looking like the DCS Su27 is defined solely on the Corba maneuvers. But that's only my feeling!

If I take a stone, put a engine at this stone, fire up the engine, let the stone "stall" (falling down), there must and will be always a path change. The physically laws of forces! The Su27 now handles like she is in a "stall/cobra bubble". A special bubble made to do the Cobra maneuver and the trigger for this "switch" is bound with the AOA, speed and the S key, but even alone the AOA and the speed are enough to get in this "cobra bubble". Why you can pull more easy more degress at higher AOA, even there are less forces to do so (at the same speed)? Action = Reaction. If you look at a flat stalled Su27 you can notice a "wire behavior", a rotation point that is never changing even the nose is going up and down and you change the thrust power. This is impossible! This rotation point seems to be at the same place, if you doing a Cobra, a reverse stall, a stall, a flat stall or an inverted flat stall. It's looks like there is a invisible wire at this point and this wire prevents any thrust behavior. And if you get near an stall, the Stick inputs are much to sensetiv as they should be! If there is a stall and there is not enough air drag anymore, the Stick input should be less sensible but 2 micrometer up and down and the plane flips 180 degrees. I have never seen any of this extrem sensible DCS Su27 behavior at one of the Su27 Air Show RL crashs. The DCS Su27 handles completely different to all PC planes I have evern flown (even the DCS ac). If you look at the AC (Su27) with the F2 outside view, and switch the flaps back, you can see again this "wire effect" at the same rotation point like after an stall. The DCS Su27 is the only AC I know, that reduces the nose position if the flaps are getting down. The flaps producing lift ALWAYS from the leading edge, but the DCS Su27 is producing lift with flaps down from wing trailing edge. Physically not possible! There is no physically correct explanation for this behavior. The basic physics are the same for ALL AC. If someone want to tell me this is correct, than tell me why with less lift (flaps up) the nose is raising up? Which physic law is responsible for this? The speed incrase and decrase are to low to explain this behavior. And if so, why is the Su27 the only DCS plane acting like this? Full flaps down = DCS A10 A/C nose up, FW-190D nose up, F15C nose up, BF109K nose up, F-86F nose up, P51-D nose up. So which ac are acting wrong? It's all about the laws of forces and some of them seem not to work with the DCS Su27.

Tune up or down the throttle is a must have in a flat spin with a prob AC (spin direction matters). Even if you are in a stall, a change of the energie vector can help to prevent a flat spin and to stabilize the AC. But if I see in your tracks there is no need for this, because there is no fast flat spin. The fall down vector is more or less stable, so the AB power should had helped you to get out of this stall!

There is no path change, with or without AB. The Su27 falls straight down. The Su27 can go straight to the sky with full AB. At stall the fall down speed is about 260 kph (landing speed), that's not enough drag to eliminate the power of the AB completely, even the AB energy vector is changing slowly between -20° and +10°. The length of the amplitude (nose up and down) must be change at full AB, because if the nose goes down, there is less drag and so there is more acceleration and the energy impluse must show a longer amplitude. With each up and down, the amplitude must be longer and the nose must show more and more to the ground till the Su27 gets out of the stall and this very fast. And near the ground is also no change at this amplitude and the fall speed, but the air drag is much greater. The whole stall over there is no change at the stall behavior. How could this be if the AB is still running at full power? The energie at full AB is more or less the same, the air drag is changing every meter, so there must be any change, but there is non. The stall behavior is the same from the beginning till the end. There is something extrem strange and I doupt that the Su27 behavior is physically ok.

About this AB thingie! Where is all this AB energy going to? Energy will never be lost. The engine is at the plane, the engines producing thrust, thust is energy, but there is no reaction. This is against all physically behaviors I know. If the engine is running and you put energy out there, there must be a reaction! But the Su27 does nothing. No spin, no acceleration, nothing.. even the stall was not really flat, most of the time the nose shows +20° to the ground. Yes you can get out of this stall, but the AB behavior is very strange for me. Where is all this energy going? Flat stalls are mostly a energy problem after an stall (blow out) but the Su27 has two engines with full AB running and nothing happened. This can't be right! Action -> reaction! A simple physic law! The Su27 behaves like she is in her own physic bubble.

In which case is that better from most of the gaming industrie? 4 Years, and many delays later another "suprise".. another delay of NTTR and EDGE. It's not the first or the second or the third or the fourth or the fifth or.... delay, I can't count the delays anymore. With the start of the year 2014 they were real close with EDGE... and now we are real close again. Sorry but I can't see any difference to other developer in this gaming industrie anymore. And I bet all of my money (never lost a bet against NTTR or EDGE Releases before), that in feburary we will see another delay till the MIG 15 Release, and the MIG 15 will get a delay late June to Q3 or Q4, so EDGE and NTTR will see another delay again.. and so on....! We can bet.. I am in with 50 bucks that EDGE and NTTR will not be released before June 2015! If EDGE would be any near a release we had seen many ingame screens and Vids with ingame EDGE stuff. Where is all this stuff if this release is so close? Late December.. you believe this really? It's like the good old "Duke" game... 10 years later.... not funny anymore! :mad:

Try to do a simple barrel roll.. .you will get thick eyes.... there is always a little bit "Cobra"... ! With no other plane in DCS I can get G warnings and a stall with doing a simple barrel roll. I would like to see this simple maneuver in a track from the "test pilots" at low speed. A simple clear barrel roll. With the F15c I can do this with ease and fully loaded weapons and tanks. With the Su27 it's a hard thing even without any load. There is always this "Cobra" behavior... EXTREM strange for me. Every WWII bird is more easy to fly as the Su27 now and I can't believe that this is like it should be. The F15C in DCS is lightyears ahead of the Su27. I've had never before so much stalls with an airplane, like with the Su27 yet. Every manuever must be flown with milimeter inputs at the controls, a milimeter to much and you stall. That can't be right! And the strange engine behavior is the point over all of this. If you was only one time in idle postion you have to go at Edit: (89 were false) 80% thrust and have then to reduce in between 72% and 80% for sensitive inputs. If you are under 72% you must go above 78% to get some thrust, If not you will not accelerate even you are at 78% thrust after your thrust was a second on idle. An extrem strange engine behavior too.

The Su27 Flaps working completely different to all other planes in DCS. If I activate the flaps, the Su27 nose went down. If I retire the flaps, the nose wents up. Flaps are there to produce more lift. In DCS they break and reduce the lift. Landings and takeoffs without the flaps are much easier to handle. Another strange thing is, that non of this "nose up/nose down" behavior is noticed from the autoflaps. So if there is a physical explanation, why act the autoflap like in all other planes and only the manual flaps work inverted?

Have you ever managed that the right wheel get some damaged? Only the left tire/structure get some damage.:unsure:

The new Su27 feels plain wrong for me. There is always a littel bit "Corba" in every maneuver. Even if the Su27 is stalling, she is doing a little cobra. Fly a Loop and wait till the "low speed" warning is coming and the Su27 stalls with the nose down. Now pull the stick a little bit to you and the Su27 gets more speed but if you hold this little stick input a little bit to long, the Su27 gets another stall in miliseconds with the nose full up to the sky. I can't understand why this little nose can produce so much drag to flip the whole AC around. The Su 27 eats speed with ever tiny little stick input. I can't believe that this "modern" AC is such a beast. The engines are the other weak point I have to fight with. It feels like full power or no power, nothing between. With every little stick input the Su27 lost more speed than evey other AC in DC and the engines do nothing to compensate this. All or nothing.. very strange. As I said before... the Su27 feels wrong for me.

Very well written.. thanks! :thumbup: