[NO, VERY BAD IDEA] Model visibility - please add Extra large option

I don't agree that you need to set a standard just because this is a simulation - for exact that reason a simulation allows everyone to have the option they like. For online, sure, set up a "pure" server if you want to have a server where everyone has the same setting for a competitive match. But that's also only the software side of things - everyone has different hardware - and usually those that have spent more money have a bigger advantage.

 

I also don't think a bit of extra visibility would turn anything into a CoD frag fest - for example the planes in Falcon 4 with the scaling ability are very easy to spot, but it all still comes down to pilot skill in the end.

Just my thoughts.

I think it's a cheat period.

Then don't use it and let people who want to simulate a real pilot's vision have their setting to do just that.

I think it's a cheat period. Resolution of screen is one thing, what most fail to remember as well with real world pilots it has allot to do with your eyes. With the pics in this thread I can easily spot the aircraft without them being pointed out. I agree with some here the current level they have in 1.5 is plenty.

I've never understood what the problem was spotting aircraft or ground vehicles, had no problem in the old dx9 engine dcs. Suppose flying on a 55 inch screen in 3D helps a bit to. If you still have problems use Nvidia Dsr as it makes it even more easy.

Perhaps you should try with a 24" screen (or smaller) and do some WWII dogfight to see where the problem really was/is. If you dislike it, turn it off.

EDIT: Unless you're running 4K, 55" screen with a 1080P rezolution has 40.05 PPI. 24" screen has 91.8 PPI. The difference is obvious. In other words, it is you who had the advantage over others in spotting since the pixels were rendered larger.

Perhaps you should try with a 24" screen (or smaller) and do some WWII dogfight to see where the problem really was/is. If you dislike it, turn it off.

 

EDIT: Unless you're running 4K, 55" screen with a 1080P rezolution has 40.05 PPI. 24" screen has 91.8 PPI. The difference is obvious. In other words, it is you who had the advantage over others in spotting since the pixels were rendered larger.

I often wonder if the people who think DCS provides realistic visual ability in good weather conditions live on the same planet (although a 55" screen probably puts a pilot on a different planet to most), lol. I also wonder whether they fly on their own mostly or just off-line or just fast jets with missiles and modern weapon systems. Perhaps if more people tried to fly on MP as part of a squad mission in WWII aircraft using WWII formation and combat tactics with co-operative missions between other friendly squadrons in the air, they might get a better perception and appreciation as to why more real world visual ability is needed.

Happy landings,

Talisman

I am 90 % satisfied with air spotting currently, but ground spotting still leaves room for upgrades.

It should be like that:

Small screen - Extra big model visibility

Big screen - Normal model visibility

Then it will be play fair for everyone ;)

It should be like that:

Small screen - Extra big model visibility

Big screen - Normal model visibility

Then it will be play fair for everyone ;)

Might be. Tough if you could spot objects before you did not have that problem. Having it as an option is just fine as it is - helps those that couldn't.

Note that for now you can customise the settings in the impostors.lua located in DCSWorld\Config\Effects directory.

impostors = 
{
   presets =
   {
       normal = {
           maxSize = 24, -- Размер диагонали баундинг бокса модели в пикселях, на котором включается импостер.
           minSize = 3.0, -- Минимальный размер импостера до которого он уменьшается. Далее остается постоянным.
           alphaExp = 0.5, -- Корректировка альфа канала (прозрачности). Экспонента. Чем меньше тем дальше видно.
       },    
       enlarged = {
           maxSize = 24,
           minSize = 5.0,
           alphaExp = 0.25,
       },    
   }
};

The file is fairly self-explanatory.

I add:

maxSize = maximum diagonal size in pixels of the displayed sprite (above this size I guess it is no longer displayed)

minSize = minimum displayed size of the sprite, i guess the smallest number of pixels drawn under any condition

alphaExp = transparency of the sprite (0 = solid, 1 = clear)

My display is 1920x1200 @ 24" 19:10 which yields ~95dpi.

After a bit of playing I started with 'enlarged' but now use 'normal' with alphaexp set to 0.1. I found the default alphaexp make the sprite too blurry.

It should be like that:

Small screen - Extra big model visibility

Big screen - Normal model visibility

Then it will be play fair for everyone ;)

With the way resolution affects the spotting system, it's actually the other way around. If running equivalent settings aside from resolution, a smaller resolution will see much larger dots. For parity, the higher resolutions would require larger dots as 1 pixel at 2560x1440 is much smaller than 1 pixel at something like 1366x768.

Enlarged (2560x1440)

Enlarged (1366x768)

Thanks, Lascaille, that is really helpful :thumbup:!

I doubled the values, except for the last one which I halved, and it looks good. I'll try to play some more with the values to get even better results.

Note that for now you can customise the settings in the impostors.lua located in DCSWorld\Config\Effects directory.

 

impostors = 
{
   presets =
   {
       normal = {
           maxSize = 24, -- Размер диагонали баундинг бокса модели в пикселях, на котором включается импостер.
           minSize = 3.0, -- Минимальный размер импостера до которого он уменьшается. Далее остается постоянным.
           alphaExp = 0.5, -- Корректировка альфа канала (прозрачности). Экспонента. Чем меньше тем дальше видно.
       },    
       enlarged = {
           maxSize = 24,
           minSize = 5.0,
           alphaExp = 0.25,
       },    
   }
};

The file is fairly self-explanatory.

 

I add:

 

maxSize = maximum diagonal size in pixels of the displayed sprite (above this size I guess it is no longer displayed)

minSize = minimum displayed size of the sprite, i guess the smallest number of pixels drawn under any condition

alphaExp = transparency of the sprite (0 = solid, 1 = clear)

 

My display is 1920x1200 @ 24" 19:10 which yields ~95dpi.

 

After a bit of playing I started with 'enlarged' but now use 'normal' with alphaexp set to 0.1. I found the default alphaexp make the sprite too blurry.

This is bad thing, very easy to cheat in multiplayer. Ultra big solid black dots etc.. :doh:

We need somekind of integrity check for this, so least in multiplayer everybody will use stock settigs.

This is bad thing, very easy to cheat in multiplayer. Ultra big solid black dots etc.. :doh:

 

We need somekind of integrity check for this, so least in multiplayer everybody will use stock settigs.

Well, now that the cats out of the bag, I can post this picture. As much as I love being able to adjust the imposter system to what I feel is realistic, these settings must be locked down or else you can do such ridiculous things as this. Look at the distances.

I already talked to one of the ED testers about this at length last week, a day after 1.5 dropped, and presumably he's already filed an internal bug report for it. It's a pretty serious issue with terrible repercussions if ED does not lock down that lua file.

I'd hate to have all servers force the visibility option off because it can be exploited like this.

This is still a WIP, changes may come.

Hope so, for the best. :D

Anyway, the values I mentioned earlier are OK for planes, but way too much for ground units. Perhaps there could be separate settings for air and ground (I assume they are the same now)...

I think the system as is, is fairly flawed because it's riding 100% on pixel sizes. It needs to be more complex than that in order for it to both make more logical sense and have a more consistent presentation across different hardware configurations.

Note that for now you can customise the settings in the impostors.lua located in DCSWorld\Config\Effects directory.

 

impostors = 
{
   presets =
   {
       normal = {
           maxSize = 24, -- Размер диагонали баундинг бокса модели в пикселях, на котором включается импостер.
           minSize = 3.0, -- Минимальный размер импостера до которого он уменьшается. Далее остается постоянным.
           alphaExp = 0.5, -- Корректировка альфа канала (прозрачности). Экспонента. Чем меньше тем дальше видно.
       },    
       enlarged = {
           maxSize = 24,
           minSize = 5.0,
           alphaExp = 0.25,
       },    
   }
};

The file is fairly self-explanatory.

 

I add:

 

maxSize = maximum diagonal size in pixels of the displayed sprite (above this size I guess it is no longer displayed)

minSize = minimum displayed size of the sprite, i guess the smallest number of pixels drawn under any condition

alphaExp = transparency of the sprite (0 = solid, 1 = clear)

 

My display is 1920x1200 @ 24" 19:10 which yields ~95dpi.

 

After a bit of playing I started with 'enlarged' but now use 'normal' with alphaexp set to 0.1. I found the default alphaexp make the sprite too blurry.

I haven't tried this yet

So the max size of the sprite is 24 pixels? Is that across or all together? That sounds huge!

I figured the sprite would be a single pixel or at the most 3-4. But 24!

I haven't tried this yet

So the max size of the sprite is 24 pixels? Is that across or all together? That sounds huge!

I figured the sprite would be a single pixel or at the most 3-4. But 24!

It's not as big as you think.

This is 24 pixels, but only 6 pixels wide.

It's important to remember that 24 pixels is the size at which the imposter starts to get drawn. All that means is that instead of drawing a model, you're getting an equivalent sized imposter sprite. The imposter sprite then scales down the same as the model would as the target gets further away or changes aspect. However, once it reaches the minsize (3 pixels for normal, 5 for enlarged) it stops scaling down and stays a constant size.

This is 3 pixels

This is what 5 pixels might look like

This is actual size, and how big it will appear ingame. However it won't be as easy to see as this because the sprites are not (0, 0, 0) black. They are some lighter and transparent color interpolated from the sprite and downscaled.

The other important fact about this being actual size is that depending on your resolution, those 5 pixels could be either very tiny, as it would be at 4k, or they could be huge, as they would be at something very low 1280x720.

This is a more accurate representation, at actual size, of what a scaled down enlarged imposter might look like.

Edit: And, just for the sake of completeness. Here is that above dot I created put in a screenshot so you can see it in context. I put one in the air, and one on the ground. Here's the cheat sheet.

Here's that same screenshot, but taken at 1280x720 and displayed on a 1920x1080 "monitor" to show the difference in apparent size that happens when you change resolution.

It's not as big as you think.

 

This is 24 pixels, but only 6 pixels wide.

 

 

It's important to remember that 24 pixels is the size at which the imposter starts to get drawn. All that means is that instead of drawing a model, you're getting an equivalent sized imposter sprite. The imposter sprite then scales down the same as the model would as the target gets further away or changes aspect. However, once it reaches the minsize (3 pixels for normal, 5 for enlarged) it stops scaling down and stays a constant size.

 

This is 3 pixels

 

 

This is what 5 pixels might look like

 

 

This is actual size, and how big it will appear ingame. However it won't be as easy to see as this because the sprites are not 0, 0, 0 black. They are some lighter and transparent color interpolated from the sprite and downscaled.

 

The other important fact about this being actual size is that depending on your resolution, those 5 pixels could be either very tiny, as it would be at 4k, or they could be huge, as they would be at something very low 1280x720.

 

This is a more accurate representation, at actual size, of what a scaled down enlarged imposter might look like.

 

How can you tell the difference between an aircraft far away enough to be rendered as 5 pixels and one that's farther away but still being shown as 5? That's where this whole idea seems confusing to me. That 5 pixel blob is pretty big for a plane if it's 60 miles away. Is there a range it disappears at?

I imagined the sprite was literally a single pixel that replaced the image of the plane if it fell below that.

How can you tell the difference between an aircraft far away enough to be rendered as 5 pixels and one that's farther away but still being shown as 5? That's where this whole idea seems confusing to me. That 5 pixel blob is pretty big for a plane if it's 60 miles away. Is there a range it disappears at?

I imagined the sprite was literally a single pixel that replaced the image of the plane if it fell below that.

In theory, you can't. Not from a screenshot, anyway.

In practice, you can usually get some estimation of what's closer and what's further away just from how quickly the dot is moving across your screen and how it reacts to your movements.

As far as I know, the dot will stop rendering at ~50-60km or whatever distance it is that a plane would stop being rendered normally. However, you'd be hard pressed to even see the dot at that distance because of its minimal movement and low opacity. The only reason I even know about the ~50km limit is from extensive screwing around with the imposter system to break it and see how it works.

In actual gameplay I don't think I've seen dots on planes much further than 20km, and even then, only in ideal conditions where I know exactly where I need to be looking, the plane is a dark color, and it's at an angle where it's exposing a large surface area. As soon as they turn to face another direction they can become near impossible to spot. The color of plane can make it hard to see as well. Flankers because of their blue color are much harder to see than an F-15's dark grey. Meanwhile, for such a large target, the white Tu-95s can be depressingly difficult to see at a distance because their white, low opacity, sprite fades so well into the sky.

Does the 5 pixel size of ground targets get awkward if they appear bigger than the buildings or trees?

Actually that cheat screenshot is a good example of showing how the sprite fades away with distance.

Does the 5 pixel size of ground targets get awkward if they appear bigger than the buildings or trees?

Sort of? Unlike air targets, it's not something I've tested extensively.

In theory ground targets would be easiest to see when they're extremely far away because they would contrast against blurry textures and a lack of objects drawn out that far. Once you got closer, more clutter would be drawn and textures would sharpen, making them stand out less.

Somebody else who does more A2G could probably give a better answer to that. I'm mostly guessing.

If you haven't actually played the beta yet, all of these problems are not as bad as you might think they are. I am admittedly engineering extreme situations to point out the system's drawbacks. I think its biggest flaw though, and the one that actually matters, is its resolution dependency which is inherent in the fact that it's tied only to raw pixel counts.

I think its biggest flaw though, and the one that actually matters, is its resolution dependency which is inherent in the fact that it's tied only to raw pixel counts.

This is probably the major issue with the current system as it stands, the same setting will have vastly different effects depending on the display resolution. The normal setting at 1920x1080 personally seems perfect(aircraft wise, ground units are still a little too big IMHO) but that is probably the single most widespread resolution out there at the moment.

This is probably the major issue with the current system as it stands, the same setting will have vastly different effects depending on the display resolution. The normal setting at 1920x1080 personally seems perfect(aircraft wise, ground units are still a little too big IMHO) but that is probably the single most widespread resolution out there at the moment.

The Steam Hardware survey shows 34.5% with 1080x1920 and only 3.5% have something higher. Flight sim players are probably better equipped than the average player. I think there's a poll here on ED somewhere.

impostors = 
{
presets = 
{
	normal = {
		maxSize = 24, -- Размер диагонали баундинг бокса модели в пикселях, на котором включается импостер.
		minSize = 3.0, -- Минимальный размер импостера до которого он уменьшается. Далее остается постоянным.
		alphaExp = 0.5, -- Корректировка альфа канала (прозрачности). Экспонента. Чем меньше тем дальше видно.
	},	
	enlarged = {
		maxSize = 45,
		minSize = 15.0,
		alphaExp = 0.2,
	},	
}
};

Well here is a setting that I'm fairly happy with :)

It makes spotting planes out to about 12km much easier on my 22" screen - without feeling like I'm cheating.

The is a little weird on my brain though - because as things get closer they appear to get smaller sometimes. But it's definitely an improvement.

This lets me spot planes without having to use a zoom slider - which is exactly what is needed for the oculus rift.

minSize of 15 is TBH a bit silly and is getting towards cheating, you lose all effects of closure - as you have said, the object appears to get smaller even as you get closer to it.

If the minSize is more than a 'blob' you are compromising the experience. IMHO it is better for realism to reduce alphaExp to 'solidify' the sprite.