Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 8

Dunno, I dont think the fuel is the bs all sides encounter here its the respawning over and over again and draining people of munitions without even doing stuff, while not doing so endagers the strikers you should protect.

The question here is really if we all want to keep the respawning with zero penalties after getting destroyed on the tarmack. Not sure what I would want either.

No penalties encourages people to do it to try prevent capture even if the enemy is all over the place, should one be encouraged to do that ? I dunno.

With penalties you can still try but it would feel less arcady to the attackers. Who are destroying the same guys 5 million times with no effect. :D

Dunno what is "better". Its really up to personal preference I guess.

What I would love to see but is probably a little bit hard to implement, have any airfield activate QRA slots as soon as it is under attack, but loose lives in theese slots if you are destroyed on the runway. So lets say red gets 2 mig29s and blue 2 mirages which start hot, ready to take off on the ramp. That would feel more legit then su27s/eagles scrambling xD. To me at least, dunno.

Just some Ideas, I had great fun yesterday doing strafing while airdefences are still up. And I would honestly load up an entire mirage with a/a and a/g ordanance to do takeoff denial runs every 30secs - minute. But it feels somewhat weird to have to destroy the same guy on the ramp 4 times in a row, which doesnt rob you of the fun of running in far to low altitude to not get hit by AAA and SAMs though, but really limits the effectiveness of your ops.

[VIGGEN will happen. ))))]

[Might go red next round.]

Hate the night in blueflag.

Same here, it just renders so bad, but that's more a core DCS issue than a BF one. In night time, lightning effects are just a joke, very dull, clouds are pitch black, everything else is brighter than it should be, and the stars are just giants. Well, everything is wrong. Best fix I found is not flying at all during night time otherwise that grinds my gear. :doh:

I never said that. Im saying they can't compete with SU27's or 29's with bags on and even then the fuel flow rate is very slow so if you jettison you're done, but if you keep them on you turn like a blimp. You also named things that you have a disadvantage in, but there are several things they you guys have that the F15's don't.

Then take a single bag or two bags, not three - all depending on the amount of activity time that you want/need. Each bag gives you 4000lbs of fuel, and the drag is the same for a single centerline as it is for the two wing tanks.

You'll be turning like an eagle WITH THAT BASIC WEIGHT. With a single bag, that's 30% of fuel. Even with 3 bags, you're at 90% internal, but with having 3 tanks you take twice the drag hit of a center-line which does start getting ridiculous.

The reason you don't have datalink is because there are no AWACS (at least that is how I understand it).

They should have a KISS FDL, and not much of an AWACS/GCI link - the main reason a Su-27 got a DL before the eagle in RL was because the JTIDS terminals are ridiculously complicated. Much more capable, more jam resistant, but the flanker probably got just what it needed at that time.

I think the issue with the fueling is that it gives red the capacity to get planes in the air with such rapid speed when defending. You have to kill one fighter 4 times in 7 minutes sometimes. It makes it so 2 guys can make you need to shoot down 8 planes and so on and so forth. It gets pretty ridiculous. I don't know what the solution is, or what the limitations of the engine/scripts are, but I wonder if there's a possibility imposing a cool down on spawns at one airfield. Even if it was a 2 minute one.

 

I personally don't care if they start with 20%, but when they can start at 20% and launch immediately 4 times that it gets kinda corny.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Sent while I should be working instead.

This!

When Red is attacking Blue bases how aften do you see F15s doing ramp T/Os while the base is capped?

IMHO Su27 should start with 0%.

2 RvE guys being very vocal about 20% fuel flankers, even having the audacity to ask why it is like that, you act like rookies.

On top of that I watched one of your squad mates on twitch and encountered what I mentioned back on post #27

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2859444&postcount=27

and NOW on page 7X you come and complain about flanker fuel ? puuuuhhhhleeeeezzzzz ....

2 RvE guys being very vocal about 20% fuel flankers, even having the audacity to ask why it is like that, you act like rookies.

On top of that I watched one of your squad mates on twitch and encountered what I mentioned back on post #27

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2859444&postcount=27

and NOW on page 7X you come and complain about flanker fuel ? puuuuhhhhleeeeezzzzz ....

Do you mind saying what it is that they did?

Why is it an issue when people bring stuff up they don't like? First people hate on RvE because they say we stack the teams That discussion happened in game chat). Now people say we complain about something. Yes, I brought it up because I thought it was something that needed looked at and that led me to then agree with Frostie that all of these things that are being added and curtailed are the issue instead. I even said why it was there in the first place, because the flanker takes longer to refuel, even though you think I somehow missed that point. You need to read the entire discussion before you post nonsense and admit yourself that you use exploits. Also, if you consider us using bags to refuel, if this is what you mean for the RvE guys using exploits to refuel faster, you need to look at your own team and look at the posts they are writing. They are telling blue to take bags and use them as fuel instead of waiting for a refuel. At least when they refuted the point they gave reasons, that I listened to mind you, instead of the cesspool that your spewing.

Again, would love to know what the exploit you saw us RvE guys using.

The discussion, no matter how trivial you think they are, can and do lead to other more constructive conversations. If you are going to complain and say that its annoying etc that someone is complaining about something at least add something constructive to the conversation instead of just saying that someone is cheating.

On top of that, this guy is saying that he is using an exploit in the game to refuel faster. How is that OK no matter what team you are on or for what reason?

Sort of same thing here...

Since you guys do get the extra 20% fuel at this point, can we do something about the exploit that people use to get fuel faster, i.e. they break there gear on the ground after respawn, repair and get the fuel from the repair instead of actually refueling and are then at 100% fuel.

I thought people did it, but now I know because you have people like kobeshow admitting to it. I know not everyone does it, but there are at least a few. Can we just ban people that use in game exploits, esp[ecially people that admit to it? I don't care if they are RvE or not, exploiting has no place in any game especially one like this.

Then take a single bag or two bags, not three - all depending on the amount of activity time that you want/need. Each bag gives you 4000lbs of fuel, and the drag is the same for a single centerline as it is for the two wing tanks.

You'll be turning like an eagle WITH THAT BASIC WEIGHT. With a single bag, that's 30% of fuel. Even with 3 bags, you're at 90% internal, but with having 3 tanks you take twice the drag hit of a center-line which does start getting ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

They should have a KISS FDL, and not much of an AWACS/GCI link - the main reason a Su-27 got a DL before the eagle in RL was because the JTIDS terminals are ridiculously complicated. Much more capable, more jam resistant, but the flanker probably got just what it needed at that time.

Lastly, GGTheros, I think you are right. I just get worked up with all the restrictions that get put on because the admins are trying to make things 'even'. Thinking about it more, I think I was actually more irritated with things being different on each team and things being nerfed to try and make things 'eve' overall.

So your saying your F-15 guys can't compete with attacking strikers when they have bags on, oh dear that is funny, I dunno, maybe they could get good or something. Of course an F-15 can fight with bags on. What do you suggest, rather having both aircraft capable of taking off without refuelling just have the F-15 only capable.

 

There are pros and cons to every aircraft, if you want balance in the game then how about R-27R gets the same range as an AIM-7, AIM-9 gets as cool as R-73 or AIM-9 gets a big marshmallow smoke trail like every Russian missile does. How about Russian datalink, where is it? F-15 didn't get it until 2005 but Flankers had it in the chosen era, it works in game but still we don't get it, it is probably best they don't include it though especially considering the trouble a lot of F-15s are apparently having with just Strikers. All of this is pointless game balancing.

 

The list is endless and pointless lets just enjoy what BS create or bring a sensible alternative to what is already a sensible set up.

 

 

You've either never been on Red or never been on when it mattered. :)

Agreed, make SU27 start at zero fuel like F15s. Stop trying to balance by nerfing.

Do you mind saying what it is that they did?

 

Why is it an issue when people bring stuff up they don't like? First people hate on RvE because they say we stack the teams That discussion happened in game chat). Now people say we complain about something. Yes, I brought it up because I thought it was something that needed looked at and that led me to then agree with Frostie that all of these things that are being added and curtailed are the issue instead. -snip-

The fuel amount in the aircraft has been discussed so many times that I was just very surprised to read a member of a squad that has been around for a couple of those discussions bringing it back up.

You guys are all wearing the same tag, so I put all of you in one bag, ask your friend how to take of in an eagle faster.

I did read the whole discussion, yes you calmed down and came to a conclusion, but before you post another complaint next time please have the same courtesy and take the time to find discussions about that subject and read those before you bring it up.

The fuel amount in the aircraft has been discussed so many times that I was just very surprised to read a member of a squad that has been around for a couple of those discussions bringing it back up.

You guys are all wearing the same tag, so I put all of you in one bag, ask your friend how to take of in an eagle faster.

I did read the whole discussion, yes you calmed down and came to a conclusion, but before you post another complaint next time please have the same courtesy and take the time to find discussions about that subject and read those before you bring it up.

Id counter by saying things getting brought up repeatedly can sometimes mean things need to be changed.

Secondly, its not a very wise plan to accuse someone of something and then say, 'ask him what he did.' It just makes you sound like you have nothing or are making up what you are accusing.

Plus again, you admitted to exploiting. That makes you just as bad as this so called person. If you wanted the issue fixed you should have shown the person exploiting on Twitch to an admin instead of resorting to exploiting yourself.

Lastly, I even said in my first comment that I wanted a discussion and not a sh*t show. Are you sure you read the whole thing because Im pretty sure me saying that from the start means that I want to talk about it instead of yelling at each other. I just wanted to bring it up to talk about and your red comrades made some good points. Again, its people like you accusing others of being dumb or what have you for saying certain things in general and then providing no counter arguments or facts to the discussion. Instead you resort to attacking the poster and accusing others of cheating and then state that you cheat yourself.

Way to try and prove your point.

Ok I'll give you a quick summary of the past discussions about the same topic since your "counter" is not lookiung them up.

It is a problem with DCS mechanics that BS-team can do nothing about, they appealed to fair play and asked people not to do it, which I did because I actually thought everyone would fall in line (silly me I know, and I'm not even new to competitive computer gaming).

Put the flanker at 0% fuel and the eagle will take off much faster, even more so if they take only bags as emergency loadout, that is what it comes down to every single time, BS-team set it up like it is to make refueling take roughly the same ammount of time for both fighters.

The reason I don't type the exploit in here is because everyone is reading this, if you think I have nothing that is fine, you are superior in this argument and clearly I am the scrub and should be banned immediately -.-

edit: keep editing your posts so I don't respond to all your points, I don't call people dumb, I know you got offended so I am sorry for that, I worded it agressively but there were no personal attacks whatsoever.

Ok I'll give you a quick summary of the past discussions about the same topic since your "counter" is not lookiung them up.

 

It is a problem with DCS mechanics that BS-team can do nothing about, they appealed to fair play and asked people not to do it, which I did because I actually thought everyone would fall in line (silly me I know, and I'm not even new to competitive computer gaming).

 

Put the flanker at 0% fuel and the eagle will take off much faster, even more so if they take only bags as emergency loadout, that is what it comes down to every single time, BS-team set it up like it is to make refueling take roughly the same ammount of time for both fighters.

 

The reason I don't type the exploit in here is because everyone is reading this, if you think I have nothing that is fine, you are superior in this argument and clearly I am the scrub and should be banned immediately -.-

 

edit: keep editing your posts so I don't respond to all your points, I don't call people dumb, I know you got offended so I am sorry for that, I worded it agressively but there were no personal attacks whatsoever.

Don't bother mate, they lost their leavu cheats so they gotta find other ways to get one up on the reds.

Don't bother mate, they lost their leavu cheats so they gotta find other ways to get one up on the reds.

Really? Im saying lets have constructive conversations and people keep posting garbage.

Its really funny how people think that we used that. Think what you will. You can even ask the server admins here and 104th about discussions that our guys had with them about us not using leavu3. Its amazing that that is one of the only arguments people have against us is that they think we used it. Yes, we would have had it been allowed by the server admins, but they deemed it an exploit so we didn't. Frankly I feel bad for Yoda, who created it, because of the backlash against it. Yes, I understand why it was not allowed in multiplayer, but the way people voiced themselves was horrific. That man spent hours creating that and gave it to the community. RvE could have kept that for ourselves, but we didn't. Yoda gave his creation to everyone and was eaten alive for it.

If it makes you feel better to think that RvE used leavu3 and that is the reason you died before the integrity check was put in than be my guessed. Whatever allows you to sleep at night.

Enough about Leave3. I don't want this thread to divulge into what that thread in the mods and apps section was.

You guys are only responding to parts of what I am typing. Yes I edit, but that is because Im thinking of other things to add to my post not because I don't want you to respond to everything. I said clearly before that I don't care if its RvE or anyone else exploiting, they should be banned. So you saying that only you should be banned is a load of, well you know.

Lastly, why is that an issue with the Eagle taking off faster? Thats part of its ADVANTAGE! The SU27 has other advantages over the Eagle. Again, lets stop this nerfing and just let the jets be, for everything from CAP to CAS to rotor.

Put the flanker at 0% fuel and the eagle will take off much faster, even more so if they take only bags as emergency loadout, that is what it comes down to every single time, BS-team set it up like it is to make refueling take roughly the same ammount of time for both fighters.

It isn't that simple; F-15 bags won't (or at least should not) feed on the ground. This means that you absolutely must fill the internal tanks in the f-15 to a certain level before t/o even with externals. It might not be much - I don't know if the amount/time is trivial (think 3000lbs/min, need to fill at least 500lbs, 1500-2000 if you want to be proper).

It isn't that simple; F-15 bags won't (or at least should not) feed on the ground. This means that you absolutely must fill the internal tanks in the f-15 to a certain level before t/o even with externals. It might not be much - I don't know if the amount/time is trivial (think 3000lbs/min, need to fill at least 500lbs, 1500-2000 if you want to be proper).

So please, explain me how F-15s can be 70km or less out of maykop (taking off from sukhumi) when our su-27s are still taxiing after restart.

Night again??? we can't use mig21s and skhvals come on... 2 to 1 ratio is ok, but also deal with night all the time? Is this a joke or what.

You tell me. People are complaining about takeoff during vulching here, not about time-to-some base.

Of course, there's a really easy way to deal with all of this that ED could implement, and that is to provide an enforceable option to load empty tanks which would have to be filled with regular refueling.

On the other hand, they should also up ground refueling to 5000lbs/min for F-15's :D

So please, explain me how F-15s can be 70km or less out of maykop (taking off from sukhumi) when our su-27s are still taxiing after restart.

So please, explain me how F-15s can be 70km or less out of maykop (taking off from sukhumi) when our su-27s are still taxiing after restart.

I would assume this would be impacted partly by how much time has elapsed after the server has restarted. I have no actually. There are too many variables in a multiplayer environment to say for sure which is why I am testing it right now.

I am timing the time it takes the SU27 and the Eagle to refuel to 100%. Im giving the Eagle 2 bags because that is what most people fly with. I will post back with results here shortly.

Same here, it just renders so bad, but that's more a core DCS issue than a BF one. In night time, lightning effects are just a joke, very dull, clouds are pitch black, everything else is brighter than it should be, and the stars are just giants. Well, everything is wrong. Best fix I found is not flying at all during night time otherwise that grinds my gear. :doh:

I had all day set aside to play blue flag and it's been night all day. :(

2 RvE guys being very vocal about 20% fuel flankers, even having the audacity to ask why it is like that, you act like rookies.

On top of that I watched one of your squad mates on twitch and encountered what I mentioned back on post #27

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2859444&postcount=27

and NOW on page 7X you come and complain about flanker fuel ? puuuuhhhhleeeeezzzzz ....

You talking about the post where you saw people acted like douches so you joined in? So sorry this blue flag has stained nobility of your caliber. ;)

Sent while I should be working instead.

Don't bother mate, they lost their leavu cheats so they gotta find other ways to get one up on the reds.

When all you can reach for is low hanging fruit, eat it up, buddy.

Sent while I should be working instead.

So please, explain me how F-15s can be 70km or less out of maykop (taking off from sukhumi) when our su-27s are still taxiing after restart.

 

Night again??? we can't use mig21s and skhvals come on... 2 to 1 ratio is ok, but also deal with night all the time? Is this a joke or what.

Zomg, the planes aren't the same? Don't hear you complaining about eagles showing up on the rwr while the stealthy IRST and 27T's smoke us with no warning.

The airplanes aren't the same, bro. You shouldn't get to pick the advantages and skip the disadvantages like we're on some feature buffet line.

Sent while I should be working instead.

The Eagle takes 6 minutes to fully refuel. the SU27 takes 8. So I understand why this 20% thing was put in. The drop tanks need to just start empty to get the fuel weight to time ratio equal.

However, a couple of other things here. The Mig29S starts with 100% fuel. Is the Mig29S meant to compete against the M2000? Reason I ask is because it can carry the same, though fewer, armament as the 27.

Also, something that I don't know if it has been discussed. What is the range of the Eagle and the SU27 with full fuel in DCS? Does the SU27 have a longer or shorter range? That could justify the longer refuel time? Im not asking for rl, but DCS ranges. I, frankly have no idea. The reason I ask this is - does the SU27 have an extended range than the Eagle and if you remove some of the fuel from the 100% tank does it than make the fueling times even?

A question about the drop tanks for the Eagle. In rl, are they prefilled or are they fill when fueling the plane?

Below are what I have found to be, possibly, the rl ranges, but I want to know what the in game DCS ranges are. The SU27 has a longer combat range than the Eagle, but a shorter fairy range. I think that is attributed to the drop tanks and the SU27s massive internal stores.

SU27

Ferry Range: 4,400 km

Combat Radius: 1,200 km

Eagle

Ferry Range: 5745 km

Combat Radius: 1000 km

Lastly, stop attacking each other. I started this discussion to have a discussion, not the crap show that has been happening.

I think discussing real life refuelling procedures on whether tanks are empty or not is irrelevant, the refuel process was put in I believe to reduce the level of aircraft spam from point A to B, note the idea had nothing to do with defending just attacking airbases.

The F-15C to my knowledge has a greater range and also carries a greater fuel load than the Flanker.

I think the real interesting part here is the total impulse you get out of one fuel load.

su27 gets to about 140kn*h with full internals while the eagle gets to around 149kn*h with 3 droptanks.

Both at mil power according to the numbers I did find.

So it really comes down to drag and envelope here considering the range.

And that seems to converge with ferry vs. combat range.

[in case somebody doesnt get what i mean, combat, higher speed, non linear higher drag, fueltanks baaaad, ferry range, lower speed, drag not as prominent, tanks are gooood.]

So yeah, the suspected greater range is prob since the eagle travels at higher alts on average.

And I mean nobody compensates for the fact that the mirage needs 8min to get precise nav to russian airfields, meanwhile the flanker and mig29 dont have to wait 8 min on the runway to get working nav.

Thats hugely unfair, but tbh I dont care, just to be said here to support frosties point that the change for balance between frames makes things worse by the subjective standpoint. Because people will prob get less mad at things which are just defined by frame specs.

:D And rocco plox you guys use the skval at night with the ka50 without ilumination rockets. ;D

I wonder how that works.

You told me about your 1337 shkval hackorzzzz skillz and putin mod ))))))).

It just feels weird to struggle with the gazelle and switching to IR and toggeling NVG to play fair with the merkel copilotn and then a ka50 mysteriously engages radar SAMs at night without ilumination. :DD I dunno what mod you installed that time.

Putin vision ? :D

Also with the mirage I unlock stuff to play it fair. And I am not going to lower my standards because other people seem to have lower ones. I am idealistic and I am stubborn in that regard. I just find it a little funny. :DD

I think the real interesting part here is the total impulse you get out of one fuel load.

 

su27 gets to about 140kn*h with full internals while the eagle gets to around 149kn*h with 3 droptanks.

Both at mil power according to the numbers I did find.

 

So it really comes down to drag and envelope here considering the range.

And that seems to converge with ferry vs. combat range.

[in case somebody doesnt get what i mean, combat, higher speed, non linear higher drag, fueltanks baaaad, ferry range, lower speed, drag not as prominent, tanks are gooood.]

 

So yeah, the suspected greater range is prob since the eagle travels at higher alts on average.

 

And I mean nobody compensates for the fact that the mirage needs 8min to get precise nav to russian airfields, meanwhile the flanker and mig29 dont have to wait 8 min on the runway to get working nav.

 

Thats hugely unfair, but tbh I dont care, just to be said here to support frosties point that the change for balance between frames makes things worse by the subjective standpoint. Because people will prob get less mad at things which are just defined by frame specs.

 

 

:D And rocco plox you guys use the skval at night with the ka50 without ilumination rockets. ;D

I wonder how that works.

You told me about your 1337 shkval hackorzzzz skillz and putin mod ))))))).

 

It just feels weird to struggle with the gazelle and switching to IR and toggeling NVG to play fair with the merkel copilotn and then a ka50 mysteriously engages radar SAMs at night without ilumination. :DD I dunno what mod you installed that time.

Putin vision ? :D

Also with the mirage I unlock stuff to play it fair. And I am not going to lower my standards because other people seem to have lower ones. I am idealistic and I am stubborn in that regard. I just find it a little funny. :DD

I don't think we can use the full 8 minute alignment time with the mirage to be far. You don't have to wait for the full alignment. Really you only need it if you are doing bombing runs,correct?