DCS 1.2.9 AI MIG-21BIS Discussions

I know current AI MiG does not represent the final product, so I don't really mind few oddities I saw.

One thing I've noticed, though, got me taking some interest :

I put MiG-21 vs F-86 head on 1 vs 1.

At first, I gave Bis 2 x R-55 and 2 x R-13M, and gave F-86 2 x GAR-8 (AIM-9B)

While each closing head to head, MiG fired R-55 and F-86 went boom. I though "wow, cool, so R-55 really has some all aspect capability, didn't think it would really have that".

But I wanted them to do a turning fight :D so next time gave the MiG 2 x R-13M, 1 x R-3S and 1 x R-3R, for curiosity. Again, while closing in, MiG fired the R-3R and F-86 went boom. So I was like "yaay so the RP-22SMA can track head on!".

But I really wanted the fight to get into a tail chase :D and this time loaded the MiG with 2 x R-13M and 2x R-3S. Again they closed on each other and... the mig fired R-3S head-on, frontal aspect, and F-86 went boom, which led me question my former observations on abilities of R-55 and MiG's radar too :D. I mean, I think this shouldn't have happened I guess? :D

I know they're WIP, but WIP bugs aside, I really wonder if R-55 really has some all aspect capability and if RP-22SMA radar can track head-on even if rudimentarily.

Turbo-props and piston engined aircraft are - on the other side - extremely hard to lock with any IR missile in DCS (so far).

Don't know, I got some really nice hits from Iglas on my P-51 at times :D, to be honest though, they also miss a lot even without I notice the launch.

I think it does make some sense with piston engines being difficult for at least some IR missiles in DCS, but shouldn't turboprops produce a really hot plume of exhaust like jets?

It should be possible for any IR A-A missile in DCS (some might have special restrictions on IR head definition). IR missiles are simply looking for a good contrast to lock on to. Multi-engined jet aircraft might have reasonably high thermal output, which might be acquired at a certain distance. Turbo-props and piston engined aircraft are - on the other side - extremely hard to lock with any IR missile in DCS (so far).

True, I'll have to re-run the mission but I do recall being at 94% power at the time of engagement so I don't think I was rolling in too hot. Maybe enough for the seeker to track me, but I was under the impression the R-13 was rear aspect only.

Also, since the R-13 is in the game it would be nice to be able to throw them on MiG-23s, Su-17s, and Su-25As. I know the .lua files can be changed and what not, but it'd be great to have them by default. :D

Just as a trial run, I set a 4 Ship Mig 15 AI flight against a 4 ship Sabre flight, then a 4 ship F15C flight, then a 4 ship F16D flight (all gun only of course). The Mig 15's won each fight 4 -0.

 

Yay, beta! And AI being odd of course :D

Forgive me if I am ignorant, but wouldn't a Mig 15 be likely to be able to turn inside all of those aircraft, and therefor have a pretty big advantage in a guns only engagement?

yeah.. RQ missiles should be.........

REAR QUARTER

I know current AI MiG does not represent the final product, so I don't really mind few oddities I saw.

 

One thing I've noticed, though, got me taking some interest :

 

I put MiG-21 vs F-86 head on 1 vs 1.

 

At first, I gave Bis 2 x R-55 and 2 x R-13M, and gave F-86 2 x GAR-8 (AIM-9B)

 

While each closing head to head, MiG fired R-55 and F-86 went boom. I though "wow, cool, so R-55 really has some all aspect capability, didn't think it would really have that".

 

But I wanted them to do a turning fight :D so next time gave the MiG 2 x R-13M, 1 x R-3S and 1 x R-3R, for curiosity. Again, while closing in, MiG fired the R-3R and F-86 went boom. So I was like "yaay so the RP-22SMA can track head on!".

 

But I really wanted the fight to get into a tail chase :D and this time loaded the MiG with 2 x R-13M and 2x R-3S. Again they closed on each other and... the mig fired R-3S head-on, frontal aspect, and F-86 went boom, which led me question my former observations on abilities of R-55 and MiG's radar too :D. I mean, I think this shouldn't have happened I guess? :D

 

I know they're WIP, but WIP bugs aside, I really wonder if R-55 really has some all aspect capability and if RP-22SMA radar can track head-on even if rudimentarily.

For a gunfight you need to strip the aircraft (all) from any missiles. They should have CAP or similar fighter/interceptor task selected from the task drop down menu.

IR missiles don't know the aspect. They only know if the thermal contrast exist or no. In real life you can shoot any IR guided missile to the Sun. You can shoot a missile to an aircraft with hot airframe even if the engine thermal output is very low. You can even shoot IR missiles on a ground targets with enough thermal contrast.

For some tests, put e.g. MiG-29 with R-73 missiles head on against MiG-21 with some IR missiles also (note: only IR missiles, and innitial distance 7-8km / 4-5Nmi). MiG-29 should shoot firsts, clear head on, even if the MiG-21 is not on the afterburner engine setting. In following ACM, MiG-29 will shoot R-73 from all possible aspects. Run this mission several times to note diversity.

do nukes destroy everthing near by? have you tried this?

Don't know, I got some really nice hits from Iglas on my P-51 at times :D, to be honest though, they also miss a lot even without I notice the launch.

 

I think it does make some sense with piston engines being difficult for at least some IR missiles in DCS, but shouldn't turboprops produce a really hot plume of exhaust like jets?

I was referring to human aircraft missiles, not AD missile systems. Nevertheless, since all weapon systems use same code base definitions, they should all have degraded performances when it comes to acquiring piston engine or turbo-prop thermal output.

Turbo props don't have large thermal output. Jet engine (actually "a turbine") is usually small, and its power output is not used to accelerate the air stream (transforming it to a jet stream) but to rotate the propeller which generates much larger thrust than that particular jet engine would generate.

Small hot stream coming out of the small jet engine ("turbine") is quickly dissipated in the propeller air-stream and aircraft turbulence stream, and quickly cooled in cold atmosphere (in ISA, 0C is somewhere at 2500m ASL). Now imagine such aircraft flying at 4000m (~ -10C).

Google some schematics and some images of a turbo-prop.

do nukes destroy everthing near by? have you tried this?

RN-24 destroys 2/3 buildings in Taman, unarmored and light urmor viecheles was blown up about 1.5 miles (2.7 km) from epicenter, even they was shielded by structures.

I frequently fight the Su-27 and MiG-29S in 4 vs 1xF-15C guns only DACT. The MiG-29s can give me some trouble, but the Su-27s fall quickly. The AI MiG-21s are doing better than the MiG-29s. It takes an incredible amount of 20mm on target to kill the MiG-21. This is an aircraft that historically catches on fire and/or explodes after only 1 or 2 hits on center of mass. I typically die because I have to stay saddled up and fire long bursts repeatedly just to shoot down 1 aircraft. Whereas the MiG-29s can be blown out of the sky by either a short burst to blow off a wing or a couple of bursts to blow out each engine.

Aside from the super armor, the AI MiG-21bis is now the best aircraft to fly WVR against an F-15C. The MiG-21s refuse to pose for the gun camera and force me to drop my speed down to theirs or overshoot. Rolling, turning, climbing... the most fun I have ever had dogfighting in DCS with jets (the P-51D has always been a fun challenge against AI).

RN-24 destroys 2/3 buildings in Taman, unarmored and light urmor viecheles was blown up about 1.5 miles (2.7 km) from epicenter, even they was shielded by structures.

i tried this rn-24 in editor, i had mig-21 bomb the airport. i placed bunch of btr's and a su-25t, after bombing airport surface turned into soil or burnt surface but every single unit was alive. even at "zero point"

MiG-21 not "moddable"?

I love the "openness" of DCS, to have the ability to modify and change stuff due to the wide use of LUA code. Sometimes it is just fun to experiment with stuff, sometimes you can enhance stuff. And sometimes it is even possible to fix bugs that otherwise would remain unfixed for, well, often unknown lengths of time. :o)

So, out of curiousity, I peeked into the new stuff that 1.2.9 brought to us and discovered, that the AI code for the MiG-21 is only present in pre-compiled form. That means, it can not be edited or changed.

My question now @ LN: is this intentional and will it stay this way?

I love the "openness" of DCS, to have the ability to modify and change stuff due to the wide use of LUA code. Sometimes it is just fun to experiment with stuff, sometimes you can enhance stuff. And sometimes it is even possible to fix bugs that otherwise would remain unfixed for, well, often unknown lengths of time. :o)

 

So, out of curiousity, I peeked into the new stuff that 1.2.9 brought to us and discovered, that the AI code for the MiG-21 is only present in pre-compiled form. That means, it can not be edited or changed.

 

My question now @ LN: is this intentional and will it stay this way?

Yeah, unfortunately!

The views.lua will be uncompiled as it's important for users to be able to edit if they wish; but most of the other luas contain sensitive code related to various systems.

Regardless however, a lot of the aircraft's functionality now exists in C++, thus many things are not moddable anyways.

We'll take a look at what we can leave uncompiled before release though. :)

Yeah, unfortunately!

The views.lua will be uncompiled as it's important for users to be able to edit if they wish; but most of the other luas contain sensitive code related to various systems.

 

Regardless however, a lot of the aircraft's functionality now exists in C++, thus many things are not moddable anyways.

We'll take a look at what we can leave uncompiled before release though. :)

Thanks for the quick answer. But could you elaborate a bit on the sensitive code part, please? "Sensitive" in what respect? Is it because of possible, unwanted side effects that could be caused my altering the LUA parts? Or is protecting your IP the main concern?

I hope, it is not the latter as that would somewhat contradict the idea of DCS World as an open platform. The "Modders" are a big and important part of the DCS community. It is of course up to you to decide which parts will be implemented in binary form and which in LUA - for whatever reasons - but imo you should not artificially make things more difficult if historically and also practically there are no really good reasons for it ...

Thanks for the quick answer. But could you elaborate a bit on the sensitive code part, please? "Sensitive" in what respect? Is it because of possible, unwanted side effects that could be caused my altering the LUA parts? Or is protecting your IP the main concern?

 

I hope, it is not the latter as that would somewhat contradict the idea of DCS World as an open platform. The "Modders" are a big and important part of the DCS community. It is of course up to you to decide which parts will be implemented in binary form and which in LUA - for whatever reasons - but imo you should not artificially make things more difficult if historically and also practically there are no really good reasons for it ...

We're not going to give away potentially hundreds (or thousands) of manhours of proprietary radar / avionics implementation and code to everyone. There is no reason for modification of these kinds of components (and trust me, I love the mod scene in games like ArmA, Skyrim, etc.). I really don't feel that whether we precompile our radar code has any relevance on DCS World being an open and modular platform.

It's roughly equivalent to us tossing the source .cpp and .h files for our PFM Flight model into the final release installer. :)

We're not going to give away potentially hundreds (or thousands) of manhours of proprietary radar / avionics implementation and code to everyone. There is no reason for modification of these kinds of components (and trust me, I love the mod scene in games like ArmA, Skyrim, etc.). I really don't feel that whether we precompile our radar code has any relevance on DCS World being an open and modular platform.

 

It's roughly equivalent to us tossing the source .cpp and .h files for our PFM Flight model into the final release installer. :)

At the moment it is not even possible to fiddle around with the weapon loadouts. And the "reasons" come with time - that is actually the main idea behind such an open system as DCS - to allow things that one could not have imagined to be necessary or even to be possible in the first place.

I understand that the current AI MiG is WIP and especially not representative for how the player MiG is implemented technically. If you don't want to publish the source for a few specific systems, I can - being a software developer myself, too - understand and respect that ... to a certain extend. I just hope that you, nevertheless, try (hard! :o) to live up to the "DCS open system"-mindset which made DCS for a good part to what it is.

(btw: you are aware that precompiled or even obfuscated LUA code is by no means "secure", right? :o)

At the moment it is not even possible to fiddle around with the weapon loadouts. And the "reasons" come with time - that is actually the main idea behind such an open system as DCS - to allow things that one could not have imagined to be necessary or even to be possible in the first place.

 

I understand that the current AI MiG is WIP and especially not representative for how the player MiG is implemented technically. If you don't want to publish the source for a few specific systems, I can - being a software developer myself, too - understand and respect that ... to a certain extend. I just hope that you, nevertheless, try (hard! :o) to live up to the "DCS open system"-mindset which made DCS for a good part to what it is.

 

(btw: you are aware that precompiled or even obfuscated LUA code is by no means "secure", right? :o)

The weapons / stores lua might be able to be decompiled. :)

I don't remember exactly what else it contains off the top of my head though.

And yes -- it's not a very secure method, but it goes as far as is possible with the LFS in DCS.

The weapons / stores lua might be able to be decompiled. :)

I don't remember exactly what else it contains off the top of my head though.

 

And yes -- it's not a very secure method, but it goes as far as is possible with the LFS in DCS.

Well, then perhaps a closing word, or rather plea, from my side ... fwiw: just considering the technical aspect: precompiled LUA will not prevent someone to reverse engineer your, well, business secrets. No competitor would just copy&paste your code anyways, that would be far too obvious (in an open system ... :o). But if someone seriously wants to learn about your tricks and doohickeys that you have hidden in your LUAs, this will not stop him.

On the other hand, you would still effectively lock out the modders.

Pro and contra ... which side prevails? :o)

which side prevails? :o)

The side that gets to my hard drive first

What would you want to mod on it?

I would definitely like to have weapons loadout moddable (not that I would) but would be nice for anyone that wanted to add something that didn't make it into the release.

I enjoy modding DCS aircrafts also, and i noticed the files on MiG also, so i left those files as is in respect to their work privacy. So in my opinion, just let Leatherneck package it how ever they want. Complaining just brings negative attention to modders.

^^ +1

Any changes to the Mig-21 in the new 1.29 update?

Edit: Just took a quick look and the cockpit texture bug is still there, so maybe not.

Does anybody know how to let MiG-21BIS AI to drop bomb?