Bit confused about radar?

I'm new to flight sims and I'm a bit confused about the A10s radar. The thing I want to know is do fighter jets see you on their radar if they haven't scanned you with their radar first? So say you were behind them and they are scanning forwards.

Also, does an enemy aircraft only show up on the A10s radar when the enemy aircraft has painted the A10? I ask because the A10 seems to see every missile launch? I know such terms like painted might not be the best way to describe this but I'm new to this and I hope you know what I mean. cheers!

A-10 has no radar. What you're looking at is the Radar Warning Reciever (RWR). However, your statement is true. You only see things on the RWR that are emitting a signal. Doesn't necessarily mean they're painting -you-, unless of course you get the much different sounding lock warning, then they're very much looking at you.

Other jets, namely the Su-27 and MiG-29 have a passive sensor (IRST) that can pick you up and not give you any warning at all, but again, what you said is relatively correct. A fighter with radar will not see you with it if you are behind it.

The A-10 has no radar equipment other than a radar altimeter. They won't see you on any sensors if you are behind them. They can see you on their sensors if you are in front of them. If that sensor is a radar you can see them on your RWR (radar warning receiver).

The A-10C has a piece of equipment known as a MAWS (Missile approach Warning System) that checks for telltale signs of a missile launch, regardless of if its radar guided or guided by other means, this is also why the system goes off when even a friendly warthog shoots a maverick.

It tends to go off with ATGMs as well.

Thanks for the replies. I think I get what you mean, but just to clear something up. So the A10 sees the enemy aircraft on it's RWR because the enemy aircraft has it's radar on searching for aircraft? So, if the enemy aircraft switched it's radar off the A10 wouldn't see it on it's RWR, is this correct?

Thanks for the replies. I think I get what you mean, but just to clear something up. So the A10 sees the enemy aircraft on it's RWR because the enemy aircraft has it's radar on searching for aircraft? So, if the enemy aircraft switched it's radar off the A10 wouldn't see it on it's RWR, is this correct?

Keep in mind the RWR detects ground based emissions as well.

This clears it up for me and more. Very good information. Thanks all.

Other things to keep in mind. RWR doesn't show distance. Outer ring means you're within enemies radar range. Inner circle means yore within attack range.

More serious threats that are farther away will appear closer on RWR than closer lesser threats.

Rgr. Thanks!

In A-10:

AN/ALR-69 will detect (via 4 sensors), process and display (via IP-1310) AI, SAM and AAA RF signals.

Due to working on RF, it's assumed that where the symbol is displayed is not because of distance to system but rather the power of RF emissions.

At same time what we have in sim, does not exactly match the real thing cause IRL these things are way way smarter and programmable.

AN/AAR-47 will detect (via 4 sensors), process and display (via IP-1310) the missile launch.

Due to being UV based it's only able to detect a missile while it's rocket motor is burning and because of that, it should trigger on most missiles.

Again, what we have in sim somewhat differs from real life :D

Basic:

Radar is like a flashlight in the dark, everyone will see the flashlight point of origin when they can see the light. So even if the spotlight isn't pointed at someone, others can see that there is coming light from given direction.

Just like a flashlight (visible and invisible emissions) the range does matter how large the light spot is, as well how strong the lighting is. Further the spotlight is, less light is to return (emission bouncing back to the light source from something). So at long distance you can cover large area with a flashlight, but longer distance means you might not see everything so well if at all!

Transponder is like a reflector (cat's-eyes) that it will reflect the light pointed at it so you can easily spot something marked at long distances.

A "Stealth" technology in aircrafts is nothing more than minimizing the echos of the emissions more efficiently than "non-stealth" aircraft. Think like a three different people standing at same distance while wearing a full white suit, a grey suit and full black suit. You will first see the full white suit, then you will see grey suit and last you will see a black suit. It is just a matter of the distance when you can spot those variations.

And that distance varies based three simple things.

1) Emission power (how strong your flashlight is)

2) Reflection power of the emission (size of echo, separation of the background etc).

3) Size of the target (in dark you spot a white moose faster than white mouse front of your car)

So when a fighter is flying and having a Radar transmitting, it is like walking in the dark with flashlight and pointing the flashlight from left to right like scanning something front. You will have a change to change the arc degree in swiping as well the speed if possible.

If you are playing "hide'n'seek" with that fighter, if you are anywhere near it, you will see it at the radar warning receiver as the RWR system can usually detect the radar signal 20-50% from the distance before the radar can detect you by it echoes you reflect back to it.

This is same as you as a walker on road at night can see a car coming toward you from kilometers distance, but it is just a 50-300m before driver can spot you on side of the road. If you have white suit then it is like 300m, if you have black suit it is like 50m. If you have reflectors then it is like from 700m. This example is that a fighter with a radar can detect a bomber from a 450km distance but fighter only at 90km distance.

The RWR system is very effective way to detect the direction and emission power of the radar signal. Based the signal type (think like different ways how flashlight can flicker in pulses at different rates) the RWR can separate what kind a radar there is, and once it is known, then it is known it's max signal strength power and by the power what is the distance to it. It is like in dark when two cars meet at the road with long lights On, at closer ranges the lights starts to blind more and drivers need to swap it to normal short range lights. By this power you know the distance with radars too. (Modern radars like one in F-22 allows radar power to be changed so the target doesn't get to know emission power so distance cant be estimated with RWR, this is as well reason why radars powers and frequency are secrets like when India flies at USA Red Flag they have radars in training mode so true capabilities ain't revealed to USA what Russian radars are capable.)

And many radars has different modes. Default is scanning, like radar goes from left to right at given speed for search. It is like flashlight going from left to right at 120 degree arc front of the person. That is "Scanning".

And then is the "Track/Lock" mode where radar locks to target and keeps itself pointed at it. It is like flashlight is pointing directly at you and following your movements.

And then is "Guidance" where radar is transmitting a signal in its radar emission to launched missile where the missile should be flying. This is like a flashlight in strobe mode, flickering 15 times a second.

There are two different modes in DCS radars based missile guidance system. Active or Semi-Active. Active is one that has own radar, like a camera with a small flashlight. And semi-Active is only like a camera.

The difference is that Semi-Active missile needs always the radar emission (light) from the launching platform (or someone else) so it can see the target and fly at it by following guidance commands the radar gives it (like turn left 25 degree, turn right 15 degree etc). And closer the missile gets the target, stronger signal (light) it receives (see).

Active missile requires as well a guidance from the launching platform (or someone else) but only to closer range and not to target, as missile has its own radar (own flashlight) that it turns On to lock on the target and then uses it to fly to the target. When it happens, the guiding platform can turn its radar off (its flashlight off). The Active missile can be launched with so called "TWS" (Track-While-Scan) mode, while Semi-Active needs to be launched in "STT" (Single-Target-Track) mode.

Now if you combine these basic methods together, you get to understand the complex searching, locking and guidance methods.

The difference is that when radar is in "Scan" in TWS mode, it can still transmit a different target informations for a missile but only at given periods like every 4 seconds, what is the time between the scans when the radar passes the target. It is like sweeping flashlight 120 degree front of you and every time spotlight passes the target it will quickly pulse light Off/On/Off/On (just to keep things simple). This is the guidance signal to missile that then corrects its heading every 4 seconds, so it is always little late to react things. But the benefit is that radar can keep sweeping and detect multiple targets and deliver multiple guidance signals to multiple missiles.

Now if the target changes its heading between those scannings, there comes a big delay where the missile is heading. And this is the problem with TWS (Track-White-Scan) guidance that it is very unreliable mode to fire missile to any target that is changing its speed and heading continually, and is only used for targets that are either very slow or doesn't maneuver.

Think it as a prison spotlight at towers, when a prison escapes it is trying to avoid getting shot at, so prisoner does move at different maneuvers. If the spotlight keeps scanning the ground, guards doesn't have much time or information to aim and hit the prisoner, if the spotlight is kept at the prisoner then guards can see moves and anticipate direction and lead aim to get a shot more accurately.

And this isn't modeled at all in the DCS, there is no lag what so ever and it makes TWS guidance overpowered method and very unrealistic, as in reality TWS mode isn't used against fighters or maneuvering targets even at close ranges but STT only (Single-Target-Track) where radar is locked to target and keeps pointing at it to receive continually all information of target speed and direction. We are waiting to get the TWS lag implemented correctly as it renders then many TWS capable aircrafts far worse against maneuvering targets than using STR.

But the big benefit of the TWS mode is that target doesn't know it is detected as RWR doesn't detect anything else than scanning emission (continuous light that passes over because scanning). So you can use TWS mode to launch missile at the target without it knowing it, until missile own radar turns on and locks on target. And if the target has not started to maneuver at that moment, it is usually too late as missile is already so close that avoidance is far more difficult. This is like a prison guards wants to let prisoner to escape so it would lead them to a money or a escape route, so guards just move lights just like they wouldn't have spotted the prisoner and prisoner doesn't know it is being known about break.

And this makes the RWR very important tool as there are in DCS basically three different kinds, one Western styled like in A-10C, and then two different kinds at Russian side (SPO-15 and SPO-10) and they will show you different ways the heading, emission power and target type and even will prioritize the threats to you. And you need to learn to understand the RWR panel symbols and what they mean.

And when you are flying "blind" meaning you don't either have a radar, or you keep radar turned Off, then RWR is your best friend as that is only way how you can alone detect when someone is targeting at you with a radar.

Just to mention things like in real world you would never be alone in the combat, you would have GCI (Ground-Controlled Interception) or AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control Systems) that see everything up in the air (regardless of their "Stealth" status as those systems usually are so powerful and work at different frequency that they can detect everything) and will talk to you over radio what is around you and what is threat to you (of course, they can't see behind mountains).

And then there can be optically guided missiles without radar. Like almost every Russian missile system is possible to be guided optically, meaning the launcher has a camera to find you either by your thermal emission (your afterburners etc) or just visually (like normal binoculars) and then guide missile at you via radio commands (that your RWR can't detect) or the missile has own IR (Infra-Red) sensor (called as IR missiles) that locks on you.

And you don't get any warning of such system or get any knowledge such system existing even on the area.

And then comes to play systems like MWS (Missile Warning System) that is simply a multiple IR cameras that are continually searching when a heat signature appears like when a missile is launched and its rocket motor ignites. The MWS only knows the direction of the launch, it as well can't separate who is launching what and on to what. And MWS has limited range (typically around 10km at max) and its problem is that every missile has limited rocket motor burnout time, that is the time missile accelerates to max speed and then fuel ends and missile needs to glide to the target. And launch from outside of the MWS detection range means that MWS can't detect gliding missile coming toward you (the older ones, today MWS likely has sensor sensitive enough to detect the drag heated missile head in cold temperatures)

And every heading correction missile does will lower its speed and when speed gets smaller, possibilities to change direction or altitude lowers radically as well. (And this is why TWS guidance is so risky as if you guide missile to fly wrong direction for few seconds, it will need to do radical change to direction and bleed speed and so on be incapable to intercept the maneuvering target).

With a A-10C you have only RWR, MWS and then AWACS/GCI. And you need to use those to detect what is around you and what is threat to you. So even if you fly in a zone that shows no emissions in RWR, there very well can be SAM systems or MANPADS (shoulder launched missiles) that will only likely (by good luck) trigger MWS and you need to quickly look around where you see the missile smoke trail to come and correspond to it with flares.

And then there are simply air-defence systems that has neither, they simply fire lead in the air and your only change is to spot the tracers first and maneuver around, why small maneuvers while at low altitudes is safe way to keep anti-air fire surprising you at minimal.

And for repeating, remember that RWR is always more sensitive than radar. So you will always detect the radar before it detects you at its max detection range (as long you are outside of it) and there are different methods to hide or make it more difficult to find you. And RWR usually has slight memory, so even if radar only once painted you, RWR will warn you about direction for multiple seconds. As well RWR has a limited angles (doesn't show radars up/blow you) so you can by accident turn away from radar and not receive the warning.

But in the basics, the radar system is like hide'n'seek with flashlights at the night. Some radars are pointing ones (you can set radar scanning direction narrower) and some are rotary so they scan whole sky and are like christmas tree at night, where everyone can see it.

Oh, and of course! If you can spot the ground radar with TGP or via HUD, you can mark the point to the TAD (map) and that way you should be able to store multiple target points so you can see them in the map as well easily.

Fri13 why didn't you just paste the whole manual lol!

Good info though! :D

Great post, Fri13! :thumbup:

Fri13 why didn't you just paste the whole manual lol!

Good info though! :D

Didn't have time to write shorter, so did as is (with all spelling and grammar errors). :music_whistling:

A-10 has no radar. What you're looking at is the Radar Warning Reciever (RWR). However, your statement is true. You only see things on the RWR that are emitting a signal. Doesn't necessarily mean they're painting -you-, unless of course you get the much different sounding lock warning, then they're very much looking at you.

 

Other jets, namely the Su-27 and MiG-29 have a passive sensor (IRST) that can pick you up and not give you any warning at all, but again, what you said is relatively correct. A fighter with radar will not see you with it if you are behind it.

Unless something has changed (Don't fly the A-10 much anymore), the A-10s sensors do/did pick up an IRST lock, but displays as an 'L' as if you're being lased. I'd assume that is from the IRST doing laser ranging.

Unless something has changed (Don't fly the A-10 much anymore), the A-10s sensors do/did pick up an IRST lock, but displays as an 'L' as if you're being lased. I'd assume that is from the IRST doing laser ranging.

Correct

Nice thread very useful:)

One important thing, Fri13 mentioned in his great post is very important for the A-10C pilot.

The RWR sensors do not cover 360° vertical, so above and below the A-10C has "blind spots".

When the radar source is far away or you fly straight and level, that isn't an issue, BUT as soon as you bank enough, the belly of your plane points into the direction of the radar and the sensor no longer spots it!

Same is true if you get near a radar source. if it is close and below (or above) you, it won't show on the RWR unless you do bank enough to point a sensor in its direction.

That means it is a good practice to look at the RWR when approaching, check out the potential SAMs, Aircraft, EWR in the area and decide on which way to circle the target to keep potential threats on the wing pointing a sensor at them...

It isn't always possible, but if you have a choice, do it. ;)

One important thing, Fri13 mentioned in his great post is very important for the A-10C pilot.

 

The RWR sensors do not cover 360° vertical, so above and below the A-10C has "blind spots".

 

When the radar source is far away or you fly straight and level, that isn't an issue, BUT as soon as you bank enough, the belly of your plane points into the direction of the radar and the sensor no longer spots it!

Same is true if you get near a radar source. if it is close and below (or above) you, it won't show on the RWR unless you do bank enough to point a sensor in its direction.

 

That means it is a good practice to look at the RWR when approaching, check out the potential SAMs, Aircraft, EWR in the area and decide on which way to circle the target to keep potential threats on the wing pointing a sensor at them...

 

It isn't always possible, but if you have a choice, do it. ;)

Interesting. I know that the RWR blind spots are big enough to be always considered for instance with MiG-21bis forcing its pilot to apply special so to say tricks to cover the gaps.

Is however the specific size of the A-10C RWR and missile warning system blind spot known? Is it big enough so that the pilot should be worried about it?

Interesting. I know that the RWR blind spots are big enough to be always considered for instance with MiG-21bis forcing its pilot to apply special so to say tricks to cover the gaps.

Is however the specific size of the A-10C RWR and missile warning system blind spot known? Is it big enough so that the pilot should be worried about it?

The blind spots are basically below and above the aircraft.

So you can put an EWR radar in front of you and fly towards it. At one point the EWR symbol will drop from the RWR, as it is "below" the sensor coverage.

Now you know the angle from your aircraft to the radar ground position (F10 map height over ground, elevation of the EWR and distance, a little trigonometric calculation should do the rest).

With that you can estimate the blind spot below you according to height above ground and judge the bank angle where the contact will drop, when turning to violent.

...or for the turn just put the EWR at your 3-9 line and bank slowly until it drops from the RWR.

From memory I would say the sensors cover roundabout some 30° above and beloe from the tips of your wings, nose and tail end. :dunno:

Now you know the angle from your aircraft to the radar ground position (F10 map height over ground, elevation of the EWR and distance, a little trigonometric calculation should do the rest).

Exactly. It is this way easy to fly with Russian aircraft with SPO-15 as you get easily to know the likely distances. The avionics gives all the required informations from the altitude to the banking angle and SPO-15 (RWR) gives the angle in horizontal. This way while flying you can filter SPO-15 targets and mark them with a pen to the map on lap, or confirm that the radars are there that you marked there in the briefing before flight.

From memory I would say the sensors cover roundabout some 30° above and beloe from the tips of your wings, nose and tail end. :dunno:

Yes, 60 degree in total, +-30 degree from horizontal line.

So example you get a multiple RWR symbols lit up SPO-15, the strongest emission is priority so you get its signal strength and type clearly visible. By checking the briefing information what types there are around on enemy, you can narrow the list what is the type and when you know that, then you can estimate the range by reading the power ring:

That is for the fighters, but I have seen same for the ground radars as well, or I have it somewhere saved among all thousands of files. But that is fairly easy to read once you know what you are likely facing.

The SPO-15 isn't really realistic in DCS as it list specific kind radars as once light (early warning radars, long range, medium range etc) while in reality they should be more about mixes like long one type shows specific fighters as specific medium range SAM systems.

But using the SPO-15 in DCS is works easily by turning the aircraft carefully to use that 30 degree blind spot to filter out the wanted threats.

Read the altitude information from avionics (or HUD) and the angle information. Now it is just simple calculation and mark marking.

And this is reason why I have a "Trigonometry Calculator" in my phone, as I can just enter the wanted values and get the result.

So altitude = 4250m

Angle of bank to left until radar at right disappears = ~15 degree

Entering those will give distance = 15861m so about 16km.

RWR angle = ~30 degree

And now I know that the radar that disappeared from RWR is 30 degree to right at 16km distance. And I can look for landmarks if I can, or just plot it to map.

And as I know the degree and distance, I can even calculate quickly that as I fly 600km/h, the range to radar is 16km that is at 30 degree, I have information that I need to fly 8km to get radar my right (3'clock).

And with speed of 600km/h I will fly 8km in about 45 seconds, and that point I am about 14km from the radar, it being my closest range to it.

This way I can fly around and plot the scene simply by turning aircraft, reading the values from avionics and calculate them.

This way I have very good situational awareness before entering the battlezone. And I can do it easily for even air radars simply turning aircraft and this way separate them.

And if flying with a wingman, you can fly in combat formation and communicate the values and this way triangulate the positions and plan the attacks.

And when emergency situation happens, nothing else is required to know than SPO-15 primary threat power, direction and type so you know what maneuvers to do in what directions.

Very simple and efficient but requires to really understand how to fly the aircraft as it is what you use to create situation awareness.

If I just would dare to print a good realistic paper maps (and laminate them) with correct scales, then it would be super easy just to mark positions of different threats.

The AN/ALR-69 antennas are located on the nose and aft fuselage (behind the tail) in pairs. Each sensor has a 120 degree field of view.

The AN/ALR-69 antennas are located on the nose and aft fuselage (behind the tail) in pairs. Each sensor has a 120 degree field of view.

Ah ok, so the wingtip mounts are the MAWS, only?

I know I do lose RWR contacts when I bank sharply, so it covers 60° up and 60° down in level flight?

Edit - the A-10C manual doesn't reveal much, at a quick glance...

Yes wingtip sensors are the UV cameras for the AN/AAR-47.

Each sensor covers a 120 degree cone, so yes up and down as well. While there's overlap in the horizontal there isn't in the vertical, hence the blind spots above and below.

60° isn't too bad. Other planes have worse...;)