KA50 Target Designator "a bad JOKE"

[Itkovian]

Certainly for me, with a FFB stick, I've always operated by hold trimming, and have read numerous posts that it is the proper way to trim (basically, that KA-50 pilots rarely use Flight Director mode, and simply press and hold the trim button whenever maneuvering, releasing when they have attained their desired flight profile).

 

As for the Schval issues, I haven't had that yet, tough I hasn't flown in the rain in quite a while. :)

[Havner]

No, the dive is a result of the simulator using input from the joystick to simulate pressure from the pilot's hand on the real stick: In the real thing, the autopilot operates by moving the control stick (you can see this if you put into route mode and release the stick. IF you engage Alt hold, collective will move 'on its own' as well). In the real helicopter, there will be no dive, because the position of the stick is always 100% the position of the swashplate. If the real pilot moves the stick without pressing trimmer, he is overcoming the centering force and the correction force from the AP. He won't have to move stick further to compensate for AP, just press harder for the same movement.

 

I get what you are saying, I really do. And if the bold sentence was right it would make a lot of sense. But I'm not convinced it is actually right.

The proof you give doesn't work. In the route mode the cyclic/collective doesn't move when AP is maneuvering. I just checked. The controls do move in Flaming Cliffs planes.

 

From what I know it is completely the other way around. The cyclic and the swashplate are not the always corresponding.

 

Check the image. Red is the cyclic position. Blue is swashplate. Image is not to scale.

 

1. You are in a stabilized forward flight properly trimmed.

2. You move the cyclic forward without the trimmer. The AP tries to compensate within its authority and moves the swashplate back to keep the trimmed attitude.

3. It reaches the saved attitude

4. You click trim and when the AP is disengaged the swashplate moves immediately to the stick position. Hence the dive.

 

In general the trimmer does 2 things. It engages/disengages the AP and it releases the centering forces on the cyclic. Those 2 are completely independent. When you move the cyclic without the trimmer you are fighting with the cyclic centering springs, and the AP is fighting with your input. They are not the same thing.

[Havner]

Certainly for me, with a FFB stick, I've always operated by hold trimming, and have read numerous posts that it is the proper way to trim (basically, that KA-50 pilots rarely use Flight Director mode, and simply press and hold the trim button whenever maneuvering, releasing when they have attained their desired flight profile).

 

Could you please operate without the trimm and test what we are talking about?

 

Stabilize forward flight (let's say 100km/h), move the stick forward without the trim to accelerate to 220km/h and then just press the trim. Will the heli dive?

[howie87]

The lack of love is certainly not limited to the KA-50. My favourite, the A-10C has a whole load of issues with radios that were broke in 1.2.4 and dials that were broke in 1.2.8.

 

I've reported the issues and they have been confirmed, yet nothing is done to fix them.

[Irregular programming]

I flew the ka-50 like yesterday and it worked fine, Ogre needs to take a chill pill.

[NineLine]

The lack of love is certainly not limited to the KA-50. My favourite, the A-10C has a whole load of issues with radios that were broke in 1.2.4 and dials that were broke in 1.2.8.

 

I've reported the issues and they have been confirmed, yet nothing is done to fix them.

 

Its the same as I said above, its about resources and where they are being put right now. If issues you have reported were confirmed then they will be fixed when they can, I think alot is being put into EDGE and the core right now... we just have to try and be patient.

[karambiatos]

Its the same as I said above, its about resources and where they are being put right now. If issues you have reported were confirmed then they will be fixed when they can, I think alot is being put into EDGE and the core right now... we just have to try and be patient.

 

well sith theres one little glitch that would make people so very happy (at least flight squadrons) and it would take like 5 mins to fix.

 

there is no default replacement texture for the ka-50 and it shows up bright orange (the missing texture, texture) when you are using a custom skin.

 

the community has been able to fix it them selves, but it requires an install.

 

 

Anyway the shkval problemo, im going to try reinstalling, since my open beta install is not exhibiting the same insane issues that my non-beta install is (which has been updated continuously since 1.2.3).

[Dr_Arrow]

I've flown around 60 hours in the Shark in the past two months and Shkval works just fine (it broke only once). I also have no problems with its control using a FFB stick G940, one just needs to understand how the autopilot and trim works. Sure, it has some small bugs, but KA-50 otherwise works great and is a deadly machine even in rain/night conditions.

[NineLine]

well sith theres one little glitch that would make people so very happy (at least flight squadrons) and it would take like 5 mins to fix.

 

there is no default replacement texture for the ka-50 and it shows up bright orange (the missing texture, texture) when you are using a custom skin.

 

the community has been able to fix it them selves, but it requires an install.

 

I will see if its been reported. Thanks.

[Weta43]

I tried the Kh-25ML last night. As long as you have enough hight when you launch it for it to gain airspeed and start to fly, it guides fine.

If you don't want to adjust to the changes in its FM, and just use it in the same way as you did before the changes, you'll have trouble.

[Eldur]

ED is currently including the AFM for A-G Missiles.

And they are using the *KAREN* as test objekt, they know that its need to be tweaked.

 

They're testing for a long time then...

 

1.2.7 (!) release notes:

 

Kh-25ML (AS-10) new flight dynamics implemented.

 

No beta or whatsoever.

[Itkovian]

Could you please operate without the trimm and test what we are talking about?

 

Stabilize forward flight (let's say 100km/h), move the stick forward without the trim to accelerate to 220km/h and then just press the trim. Will the heli dive?

 

On a FFB stick the trim sets the "force center" position of the cyclic, which replicates the behavior of the actual Cyclic.

 

So when I push trim, suddenly all FFB forces are turned off, and if I push the stick forward 20 degrees and let go of trim the FFB will turn on again, BUT the stick's current position becomes where the force feedback is keeping the stick. So if I want to pull back to 20 degrees (back to the real center), I will be fighting the force feedback, unless I hold trim and release when it's actually centered again.

 

So basically, trims sets the position of the cyclic where the pilot doesn't need to apply pressure anymore. So you can take your hands off the cyclic if you wanted to and it won't recenter itself.

 

Now as far as I recall, if I move the stick around without trimming and then trim, the main issue is that suddenly the stick goes "limp" in your hand (hush, you!) and the force you used to hold the stick in the new position will make you push it further than you wanted, which will make things bumpy a little. The way you avoid that is by holding down trim whenever maneuvering, so you have complete control of the stick when you let the trim button go. This is probably also why the real pilots hold the trim button too.

 

As far as I know, ED made the FFB sticks behave as close to the real thing as possible, which is why FFB is awesome with BS2.

 

I will try and test more thouroughly what happens when I just click trim... I just know it's a bad idea because it is less precise.

[dsobbe]

Dear god!

What is wrong with you people, ...... lets turn this into a "WANT MORE EYE CANDY" or "GET ME SOMETHING NEW" thread.....

When it should be a "GET THIS BROKEN SIM FIXED" thread.

 

Agreed.

I began to suspect it was all going sideways early on and stopped upgrading/patching at 1.01, when the ADF stopped working but everything else did, and before you had to download a fix for 1.02 just to get English back, again. The only reason I'm still here is the great bunch of people on this forum who help each other out. :thumbup:

[Havner]

On a FFB stick the trim sets the "force center" position of the cyclic, which replicates the behavior of the actual Cyclic.

 

Yes. I know what FFB part in the joystick is doing. My question was about how the sim interprets the axes. Whether it's different then on non-FFB. So it has nothing to do with the FFB centering. (The only issue is the limp you described.

 

 

The way you avoid that is by holding down trim whenever maneuvering, so you have complete control of the stick when you let the trim button go. This is probably also why the real pilots hold the trim button too.

 

One of two reasons. The other being AP disengages. Try to do a 180 degree turn without holding the trimmer. You'll see.

 

 

I will try and test more thouroughly what happens when I just click trim... I just know it's a bad idea because it is less precise.

 

 

Thanks. I know it's incorrect thing to do. I just want some confirmation whether it behaves differently than it does on non-FFB.

[Weta43]

Could you please operate without the trimm and test what we are talking about?

 

Stabilize forward flight (let's say 100km/h), move the stick forward without the trim to accelerate to 220km/h and then just press the trim. Will the heli dive?

 

 

Just tried it with a MSFFB2

 

No, it won't dive (unless you move the stick when you trim).

[Havner]

Just tried it with a MSFFB2

 

No, it won't dive (unless you move the stick when you trim).

 

Any chance you could upload a track of the test? I'd like to compare all of this with a non-FFB track.

This really looks like there is something wrong.

[Dr_Arrow]

Any chance you could upload a track of the test? I'd like to compare all of this with a non-FFB track.

This really looks like there is something wrong.

 

I think there is nothing wrong, because it is not about the positions of the stick but the forces. When you press trim button it commands a zero force position, which in non-ffb stick is its center. So if you press the trim in non-ffb stick you have to put it to center otherwise you are commanding a new attitude and the Shark dives/climbs, etc if you are over the 20% AP authority.

[Havner]

I think there is nothing wrong, because it is not about the positions of the stick but the forces. When you press trim button it commands a zero force position, which in non-ffb stick is its center. So if you press the trim in non-ffb stick you have to put it to center otherwise you are commanding a new attitude and the Shark dives/climbs, etc if you are over the 20% AP authority.

 

This is completely not about that. See the previous posts where we were talking about AP. This got nothing to do with the centering but with the specific microsecond of what happens with the swashplates when you press/release the trimm having stick deflected from the center with and without FFB joy.

 

And the bold sentence is wrong because there is a centering trimmer mode.

[sorcer3r]

Any chance you could upload a track of the test? I'd like to compare all of this with a non-FFB track.

This really looks like there is something wrong.

 

Yes, this seems to be the issue.

If I press trim button my virtual stick will move (although I do not move my non-ffb stick).

And virtual stick moving without input should not happen. (only if your helo got some serious damage)

That is the wrong trim behaviour I tried to explain.

[Havner]

If I press trim button my virtual stick will move (although I do not move my non-ffb stick).

 

EDIT: Sorry sorcer3r I misunderstood you in previous version of this post.

Ok, I will give it a shot at home. This would be the indication what is going on.

 

Could someone with a FFB stick really post a track of the test I asked for earlier? I'd be really grateful I want to compare this with a non-FFB stick (e.g. for the virtual stick movement, does it differ depending on what joy you have connected).

 

Stabilize forward flight and trimmed properly (let's say 100km/h), move the stick forward without the trim to accelerate to 220km/h, let it stabilize again (still without the trimm, keep the stick deflected yourself) and then just press the trim. Will the heli dive?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Havner

[sorcer3r]

So the virtual stick moves with a FFB stick when you click trimm? This is in contrast to what Weta43 observes.

 

Could someone with a FFB stick really post a track of the test I asked for earlier? I'd be really grateful

 

No, I do not have a FFB stick. And it does not behave like Weta43s observations.

 

Virtual stick will move when I press trim button. But I do not move my stick.

[RagnarDa]

I get what you are saying, I really do. And if the bold sentence was right it would make a lot of sense. But I'm not convinced it is actually right.

The proof you give doesn't work. In the route mode the cyclic/collective doesn't move when AP is maneuvering. I just checked. The controls do move in Flaming Cliffs planes.

 

From what I know it is completely the other way around. The cyclic and the swashplate are not the always corresponding.

 

Check the image. Red is the cyclic position. Blue is swashplate. Image is not to scale.

 

1. You are in a stabilized forward flight properly trimmed.

2. You move the cyclic forward without the trimmer. The AP tries to compensate within its authority and moves the swashplate back to keep the trimmed attitude.

3. It reaches the saved attitude

4. You click trim and when the AP is disengaged the swashplate moves immediately to the stick position. Hence the dive.

 

In general the trimmer does 2 things. It engages/disengages the AP and it releases the centering forces on the cyclic. Those 2 are completely independent. When you move the cyclic without the trimmer you are fighting with the cyclic centering springs, and the AP is fighting with your input. They are not the same thing.

I just checked and contrary to what I expected the AP doesn't move the cyclic (as I thought I remembered it did). Otherwise I am not sure what the issue is here actually. When you have trimmed a hard forward position the AP probably is fighting it with its 20%, and then when you press the trim again (which disengages the AP) the 20% nose-up input is removed and the helicopter nose-dives. I can't remember it being any other way since BS1.

 

Yes, this seems to be the issue.

If I press trim button my virtual stick will move (although I do not move my non-ffb stick).

And virtual stick moving without input should not happen. (only if your helo got some serious damage)

That is the wrong trim behaviour I tried to explain.

Are you aware that there is a "Central Position Trimmer Mode"-option in the settings that will change the behavior you are referring to?

 

 

Edit: As a general note, make sure you have read all of this excellent description about the Blackshark and its AP/trimmer:

http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_426a.html

Edited May 21, 2014 by RagnarDa

[Havner]

No, I do not have a FFB stick. And it does not behave like Weta43s observations.

 

Virtual stick will move when I press trim button. But I do not move my stick.

 

Yes, I misread you the first time I read your post. I've corrected it since, sorry.

[Havner]

I just checked and contrary to what I expected the AP doesn't move the cyclic (as I thought I remembered it did). Otherwise I am not sure what the issue is here actually. When you have trimmed a hard forward position the AP probably is fighting it with its 20%, and then when you press the trim again (which disengages the AP) the 20% nose-up input is removed and the helicopter nose-dives. I can't remember it being any other way since BS1

 

The issue is that some of the people here claim that this nose-dive is a bug. I've said it's not (because of the explanation I gave in my post and yours here (they are the same).

 

But some people claim it's still a bug because with FFB there is no dive. And indeed if that is the case that would be suspicious (I'd expect the dive to be there always). I'm just trying to understand. I know I had my own share of AP doubts back in the day.

[sorcer3r]

Are you aware that there is a "Central Position Trimmer Mode"-option in the settings that will change the behavior you are referring to?

 

In BS1 this bug did not exist. So it should possible to fix it in BS2.

Central trim feature is suicidal because of the input freezes.