Mig-15? You're kidding me...

[shagrat]

Yes, did a nice test today. I crashed against the Mig-15 due to a steering error... then my wingman got after it. After about 15-20 minutes the Mig had the first chance to get him in front and booom, first shot got my wingman killed!

Notice the Mig's AI was on 'average' and my wingman's was on 'excellent'... so whatever AI Mig pilots are supposed to know about their planes they should not be that easily killing a supposed to be better AI ???

There is definitely a need for adjustment, at least at 'average' and 'good'... or you introduce a new AI level 'greenhorn' or 'dumb'.

My guess is currently it will be impossible to set up more complex missions against AI 'Uber-Migs' that even on 'average' out-perform and out-class the Sabre's 'excellent' AI !!!

[kontiuka]

Been playing against an "Excellent" Mig-15 and he is hard as sh!t. I've yet to get a kill. I set up a mission that lasts for 15 minutes then we both disengage and RTB. I'm thrilled when I can actually survive that long.

 

I mean, it's actually good that we can have an AI that tough. Don't want things too easy.

[JMasterFlash]

Been playing against an "Excellent" Mig-15 and he is hard as sh!t. I've yet to get a kill.

Lol! You see what I mean now!? ;)

 

Perhaps I should try fighting the 15 on high difficulty. With the other planes I feel like they need to be on excellent difficulty just to fly like real pilots in a dogfight. As such, I, by default, set everything to excellent without even thinking about it. As an example, the first plane I fought in the 86 was an f-18 set to high (a buddy wanted to see me do it) and I beat him handily. That difficulty scale might not be the case with the 15 though.

 

I never really felt like it was a question of the Mig's skill, just the aircraft's capabilities. I'll have to see though.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

I've been playing for hours and hours and the Sabre is definitely my favourite DCS plane !

 

Are you guys fighting up high? My AI enemy keep diving to the deck and trying to turn fight me. The sabre seems to beat the mig15 pretty easy on the deck. I have read about he Mig15 climbing away and the Sabre being unable to follow him up to 45 or 50kft but in all my fights the AI dives to the deck and trys to tuen fight me..

 

Anyway on the deck you can win every time pretty easy ...

Just don't let your speed drop below .7 mach. A gentle turn at that speed will get round on him slowly and when he breaks off and trys to climb away you got the E to catch him in the climb shoot him down.

 

Once you know how, its a bit too easy to be honest...

 

The Mig15 sure is a beautiful target, zooming in front of his vapour trail with the swept wings and high tail... Just needs some glinting in the sun.

[shagrat]

Still I would like the AI to be a bit more balanced!

[mjmorrow]

With each opportunity to sim fly the Sabre, I am increasingly convinced that the, "Problem" I initially perceived with the Mig-15bis AI, that it was a, "UFO," capable of climbing in an unrealistic manner, was far more directly related to my perceived skill in using the Sabre being far greater than my actual skill level, than an actual issue with the AI. With some practice under my belt, the Mig-15bis, even on the highest difficulty setting, does not seem nearly as capable as it once did. For instance, even though the Mig-15bis can still climb like a monkey, with proper energy management, I can now temporarily match the Mig in a climb, long enough to take a lethal shot.

Edited August 11, 2014 by mjmorrow

[Chief1942]

I think you hit it!

 

Initially I felt like I was never going to be able to effectively fight the Mig-15's with the "86". But like you, after each sortie, I find myself getting more and more in tune with not only the limitations of the Saber, but more importantly, those of the pilot:smilewink:. Never has been a real world replacement for Practice, Practice, Practice. Muscle memory is an amazing attribute.:joystick:

 

Still end up dead a lot, but at least now I manage to take a couple with me:thumbup:

[skouras]

The AI need some work in my opinion!!!

[159th_Viper]

The AI need some work in my opinion!!!

 

What work?

[shagrat]

What work?

A tweak so that an "average" Mig-15 AI is not regularly killing any Sabre even when Sabre AI is set to "excellent", cause it flies his crate at the perfect parameters?

 

How should a mission builder get a "story" or single player mission together when there is no way for AI Sabres to down a Mig??? ...usually you set the enemy AI to "average" and the flight you want to succeed to "excellent", to more or less ensure a big enough advantage so your wingmen get their opponents killed...

Only way now is a "Mig in moving zone trigger" with an "explode unit" action :doh:

 

As said before, make Mig-15 AI on "average" inferior to F-86F AI set to "excellent" at least, or introduce a new AI setting for the Mig-15 like "rookie" or "target drone", please!

 

Currently, building missions is more or less impossible if you want an outcome where an F-86F flight succeeds against a Mig-15 flight...

Edited August 12, 2014 by shagrat

[SgtPappy]

What work?

 

I don't know about you, but when I make tracks of the MiG, sometimes it really does seem to zoom and maneuver at impossibly low speeds. Sitting at 110 knots? No problem, it'll keep going up. Not to mention it rolls great at any speed. This is obvious from about 40% of the tracks I've recorded. AFAIK, these things don't make sense even for a MiG-15, especially the roll rate.

 

That being said, the other 60% of the tracks are the more recent ones where I'm learning to fight it well so its UFO climbs are less obvious. I've attached screens here of a MiG in a positive G climbing turn while gaining speed. The 3 screens are taken one after the other. In addition, the famous EM plot Boyd did on the F-86 vs the MiG-15 shows that the MiG, at low altitude (most likely between 1000-5000 due to the high turn rates) can only hit 6.8 G's at around Ma = 0.55 which at 5000' is 411 mph. In many of my fight with him though, he will easily hit 6.8 G at ~340 mph above 7000', which I can also post. So unless I'm confused with the validity of the EM plot somehow, the MiG is turning too tightly and defying physics in general. Luckily, he makes some mistakes in terms of maneuvers so I can still shoot him down regularly :)

 

 

 

EDIT: I've got plenty of tracks to attach if you so please to see them.

Edited August 12, 2014 by SgtPappy
Added last line and pictures.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

I had a great fight just now. I zoom climbed up to 45 kft and then dived on 4 Migs that were flying at 30 kft. As I was just about to pull onto one Migs six I went super sonic and lost control of my plane. Man I was so excited to try and get a super sonic kill in the sabre my heart was pounding, but I just couldn't hang onto it.

 

I really hope DCS brings out a Mig15bis . Multiplayer F-86f Sabre vs Mig15bis would be just about he ultimate air combat sim.

[Zychon]

Just my .02 here. Been flying the F-86 today vs. the MiG-15. I have had pretty good results in 1v1 against excellent AI. That isn't to say that the AI / Flight model doesn't have problems. The 15 is still beatable, though. I'm not a great pilot, but maybe if I share what worked for me, it might help those here still having trouble.

 

The trouble here as far as I see it is not exclusively in the climb rate, nor the flawless energy management of the AI, but the combination of the two. That said, you can go vertical against the 15, as long as you play it conservative. For most people, I think the instinct is to use all that smash built up in the dive, cut the circle, and close for the kill as the MiG climbs. For me, this doesn't work at all against the MiG-15.

 

When the fight goes vertical, I find that it's best to stay in lag pursuit ...as in waay lag. Just be patient and don't chase the pipper. Especially do not rapidly change attitude in the vertical chase when the MiG does (and he will). Just come over the top easy, don't try to pull lead as you'll quickly find yourself out of airspeed. Watch him roll over as you come out to inverted, and make your changes in the dive down -not pulling over the top. The Sabre does not seem to like "flopping" over the top with a change in direction. If he immediately goes up again, do not follow. Flatten out. From there you can still stay in the circle fight if you like, just turn easy. This will let you build up airspeed, and should also extend you a bit so he can't just dive down on you. You may not come out on his six, but he shouldn't be on yours either.

 

If you do find yourself hanging at the top, extend and reset the fight. At the very least, your next dive should be longish -do not try to grab lead pursuit. Otherwise, you get stuck in this bad cycle of being at 250Kts at the bottom and 100Kts (or worse) up top, and you are unable to maneuver well. You can screw up magnificently and as long as you are conservative afterwards, you can still stay behind his 3-9 line.

 

As far as finishing it, you need to wait for the AI to make a mistake in the tactical fight. I think this applies to all fighting against AI in DCS (at least where the A/C are evenly matched). The AI may build up energy perfectly, but it makes huge tactical errors. Here are a few:

 

-It never seems to hang on to the altitude advantage, blowing massive chunks of E just as easily as it gains it.

 

-Understandably, it also seems to be limited to reacting to its environment. It doesn't do much proactive maneuvering (none at all as far as I can tell), and it never seems to think a maneuver ahead.

 

-It is incapable of any "sentiment du fer". It can react to its immediate perception of conditions, but it cannot gauge intent. It easily falls for ruses. To be honest, it's horrible at anything except flat scissors and turn/vertical fighting. Lag rolls and rolling scissors seem to drive it bonkers, and every time its in a fight like that, the best it can do is try to squirt out, whereupon it will try to engage in flat scissors fight. Every time. You can pretty much set your watch to it.

 

This isn't a dig on the programming. It's just the nature of AI as far as I can tell. If x, then y. So it will always eventually screw up. Many times, you wont be in a position to capitalize from it, though. Pushing something that isn't going to happen usually means falling down a few rungs on the ladder and having to climb back up. The key is identifying the instances where you can make him pay for a mistake, and then executing. This can be hard too. If I had a nickel for every time I screwed up my own guns solution on an absolute kill shot. ...Grrr.

 

Finally, the damage model. I don't know much about this either, but from my experience wing root hits and front fuselage hits do okay, while wing hits and tail hits just make pretty streamers. The deadliest kill positions seem to be lead shots with moderate deflection and even snap shots. Tracking shots take a lot of rounds to produce anything meaningful, and then only if you "saw" across the fuselage. Unfortunately, you cannot "fan" the rudder with the Sabre like you can with the Mustang.

 

So that was a lot of words which amount to a bunch of conjecture and half guesses. Again, I'm not really a good pilot and I don't know about the inner workings of DCS. This is just what I think has been giving me success. Admittedly, there is a lot of stalemating in my MiG-15 fights, but I can and do kill them, and so far the only times I have been killed (or even hit) have been two "sniping" shots where apparently the pilot was struck. They have never been able to "saddle up" on me.

 

Hope some of this helps.

[Fox One]

Zychon, excellent post, thanks

[Veles]

Zychon ,one track would replace a thousand words :)))) thanks)

[aracas11]

Just did the Flight Suit Attitude mission for the umpteenth time

and managed to get all four migs , i did what the Honchos did in Korea

and loitered above the action then engaging the migs while they are

distrtacted with their own engagements, either defensive or offensive.

I did have unlimited ammo on by mistake from a previous bombing

practice though !:music_whistling:

[mjmorrow]

Try the James Jabara singel mission. Much beter than 1 vs 1

 

That is a good mission. I altered it in the mission editor, so the Mig-15bis AI is boosted from average to excellent. The mission is a lot of fun. :thumbup:

[skouras]

What work?

Did you ever fly WINGS OF VICTORY2?

you get the point!

what we have here is an AI that ALWAYS manages energy to perfection

i would like a more human behaviour

 

Just a wish not request..

i know ED have done amazing things so far!!!

Edited August 12, 2014 by skouras

[159th_Viper]

Did you ever fly WINGS OF VICTORY2?

you get the point!

 

Nope - no idea I'm afraid :)

 

what we have here is an AI that ALWAYS manages energy to perfection

i would like a more human behaviour

 

I gathered from the comments that the essence of the issue is A.I. vs A.I., yes? Point being that at present, the Mig-15 thumps the living shite outta the Sabre in all flight parameters/scenarios?

 

Correct?

 

Further, rather than the A.I. Mig-15 being overpowered, it's a case of the A.I. Sabre under-performing?

 

Am I assuming/guessing correctly here? Hard to ascertain from all the moans :P

[skouras]

;):thumbup:

[Buzzles]

After tangling with the P51 and the Mig15 recently, I'm also wondering if the AI completely ignores G effects as well as being perfect energy fighters (and possibly cheating in other aspects).

 

I certainly know it pretty much ignores all damage until just before it burns judging by the state of the aircraft in the Dora Furball mission yesterday.

[mjmorrow]

After tangling with the P51 and the Mig15 recently, I'm also wondering if the AI completely ignores G effects as well as being perfect energy fighters (and possibly cheating in other aspects).

 

I certainly know it pretty much ignores all damage until just before it burns judging by the state of the aircraft in the Dora Furball mission yesterday.

 

I haven't noticed any of that. Whenever I get to play again, I will have to check for that stuff. I think that on the highest difficulty setting, the Mig-15bis pilot should better take advantage of the climb rate advantage and keep things in the vertical. The Honcho pilot should climb out above all of the Sabres, before attacking, attack in high speed slashing ambush attacks, and climb away. If the AI can wait to attack an engaged Sabre and such, that would be neat. I think the Honchos should avoid low altitudes, favoring climbing into the nose bleed altitudes, when not attacking. :smilewink:

Edited August 12, 2014 by mjmorrow

[leafer]

After tangling with the P51 and the Mig15 recently, I'm also wondering if the AI completely ignores G effects as well as being perfect energy fighters (and possibly cheating in other aspects).

 

I certainly know it pretty much ignores all damage until just before it burns judging by the state of the aircraft in the Dora Furball mission yesterday.

 

I've always wondered if AI is effected by G at all or even a little. Perfect energy management, yes, Yo-Yo confirmed it. Ignoring damages is pretty obvious i.e. merrily taxiing to runway then take off while being pruned by 6x.50cal from above. :D

 

Another thing to remember is ED do listen to feed backs. They toned down the 190 AI amazing energy display, so there is hope for the Bis AI.

[mjmorrow]

Just did the Flight Suit Attitude mission for the umpteenth time

and managed to get all four migs , i did what the Honchos did in Korea

and loitered above the action then engaging the migs while they are

distrtacted with their own engagements, either defensive or offensive.

I did have unlimited ammo on by mistake from a previous bombing

practice though !:music_whistling:

 

This is an excellent approach. When the Mig-15bis comes out, this is how I am going to lone wolf it with the Mig-15bis. I am going to try and pick off a bomber or a distracted Sabre, then climb for the rafters, up and out of reach of the Sabre sim pilots. If the Sabres and Fagots end up fighting on the deck in multiplayer, I am just going to ignore the fighters and focus exclusively on downing high altitude AI bombers. After all, the Fagot is a bomber interceptor, not a superiority fighter. When I want a pure bred fighter, for multiplayer, I will reach for our Sabre. :thumbup:

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

We need human opponents .

 

There is no way around it. To do it right we need a flyable Mig15bis.

 

The AI doesn't know its planes strengths vs your planes weaknesses. I have played many missions now and the AI always dives down to the deck and trys to turn fight me. As long as I keep my speed above .7 mach I win every time till i run out of ammo.

 

We really need a human opponent to see what the mig can really do.