P-51 outclassed?

[ff4life4]

Pilots who's favorite is Fw-190 stop reading :D

 

I've noticed against flying with some buddies (me in P51), I could defend against the Fw190 boom and zoom sometimes if I extended in a shallow dive, then when the Fw190 came roaring down on me, I would pull a turn, soft at first so the Fw190 would think he could hang, then I would pull all out and more often then not he would overshoot. This was pretty much an energy trap. Now the Fw190 lost a lot of energy. Then I'd pull him into the scissors where I made holes in them. Its still possible in a P51 :)

 

This isn't perfect, and relies on your enemy making a mistake, but the key is to lead him into follow you, then force the trap

 

Edit:

 

The key with extending is that is better for you if the enemy has to make a more shallow dive at you, then a more vertical one. A shallow one is worse for their energy management

Edited August 8, 2014 by ff4life4

[NineLine]

You will all adapt... the 190 is in early beta, the P-51 guys will figure out how to take advantages of any 190 weaknesses... I wouldnt stress about it so soon. I like the idea of an escort mission, I know we dont have WWII bombers right now, but plug in something, have the P-51s protecting and the 190s engaging... see how it all plays out there.

[fastfreddie]

Pilots who's favorite is Fw-190 stop reading :D

 

I've noticed against flying with some buddies (me in P51), I could defend against the Fw190 boom and zoom sometimes if I extended in a shallow dive, then when the Fw190 came roaring down on me, I would pull a turn, soft at first so the Fw190 would think he could hang, then I would pull all out and more often then not he would overshoot. This was pretty much an energy trap. Now the Fw190 lost a lot of energy. Then I'd pull him into the scissors where I made holes in them. Its still possible in a P51 :)

 

This isn't perfect, and relies on your enemy making a mistake, but the key is to lead him into follow you, then force the trap

 

Edit:

 

The key with extending is that is better for you if the enemy has to make a more shallow dive at you, then a more vertical one. A shallow one is worse for their energy management

 

FW190 probably shouldn't try to turn with a P51 unless they are both going very slow. FW190 seems very stable in low speeds where the P51 likes to stall out. Better to pull up and do a high yo-yo to retain energy advantage for a FW in the situation your describing. It works for the P51 also.

 

Biggest problem I saw from P51s tonight on the DOW server was them flying 50m off the ground. I'd imagine a lot of us haven't played the P51 as much lately since its been around for quite awhile by itself. Plus there may be some new P51 players with the release of the backer keys for WWii. It will even out probably just in time for the BF109 to shake everything up.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

You will all adapt... the 190 is in early beta, the P-51 guys will figure out how to take advantages of any 190 weaknesses... I wouldnt stress about it so soon. I like the idea of an escort mission, I know we dont have WWII bombers right now, but plug in something, have the P-51s protecting and the 190s engaging... see how it all plays out there.

 

any progress on that awesome B17 model Sith???;)

[Kwiatek]

What i observed flying in P-51 online against D-9 that D-9 could dominated the fight totaly and P-51 can't do nothing but defence manouvers and pray only for big D-9 pilot mistake.

 

D-9 speed and climb is so much better then P-51 that D-9 could absolutly dominate the fight.

 

D-9 is also good dogfighter with its roll adventage and power could be competetive with P-51 in knife fight. P-51 only turns horizontal little better nothing more.

 

Thats why there is need more boost ( 75 inch) version for P-51 to be more challanage for these very late D-9 version.

[Konrad Friedrich]

I need to take a leaf out of Hartmann's book and only engage when I have a clear advantage.

 

These 352 confirmed aerial victories had a good reson, I guess... ;)

 

 

Off-topic:

Btw... wouldn't it be a nice idea to make a F-86 Sabre Skin with Erich Hartmanns colours when he was leading JG71 of the BundesLuftwaffe in the late 50s/early 60s?

Anyone? :music_whistling:

[DB 605]

What i observed flying in P-51 online against D-9 that D-9 could dominated the fight totaly and P-51 can't do nothing but defence manouvers and pray only for big D-9 pilot mistake.

 

D-9 speed and climb is so much better then P-51 that D-9 could absolutly dominate the fight.

 

D-9 is also good dogfighter with its roll adventage and power could be competetive with P-51 in knife fight. P-51 only turns horizontal little better nothing more.

 

Thats why there is need more boost ( 75 inch) version for P-51 to be more challanage for these very late D-9 version.

 

You guys are hopeless...instead of learning to use your plane strengths and only entering battle when you have clear advantage you want plane that can dominate BOTH low and high altitude. :doh:

 

Then we _need_ also D13 and K4 with 1.98 ata etc etc.

[Kwiatek]

Not dominate but competetive.

 

You dont follow these topic i think.

 

Actually we got very late version of D-9 ( with MW50) vs early version of P-51 D with standart 67 inch boost.

 

Eariler version of D-9 which was more accurate for these P-51 got only 1.55 Ata ( 1750 HP) eventually with engine upgrade 1900 PS version ( with higher boost allowed 1.65 Ata).

 

From late 1944 P-51 used higher octan fuel which rise their boost for 75 inch.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

What i observed flying in P-51 online against D-9 that D-9 could dominated the fight totaly and P-51 can't do nothing but defence manouvers and pray only for big D-9 pilot mistake.

 

D-9 speed and climb is so much better then P-51 that D-9 could absolutly dominate the fight.

 

D-9 is also good dogfighter with its roll adventage and power could be competetive with P-51 in knife fight. P-51 only turns horizontal little better nothing more.

 

Thats why there is need more boost ( 75 inch) version for P-51 to be more challanage for these very late D-9 version.

 

 

:doh:

honestly i have the most fun with flying the p51 against the doras now...hopped on our server yesterday at night and killed 6doras in one flight...its very capable against the fw190.

[pingo]

You guys are hopeless...instead of learning to use your plane strengths and only entering battle when you have clear advantage you want plane that can dominate BOTH low and high altitude. :doh:

 

Then we _need_ also D13 and K4 with 1.98 ata etc etc.

 

:megalol: I dont know if you will take the following request in a bad way or as me trying to make your reply more constructive to the person you reply to.

 

As it seems to me that (with your reply in mind), that you know how to handle/fly and df in the P-51 maybe you would like to assist in teaching him or me in this matter - it seems like you are the pilot with alot of experience in the pony. Now, please dont get upset :smilewink: Im not the one who are useing a facepalm :D

Edited August 8, 2014 by pingo

[Narushima]

Pilots who's favorite is Fw-190 stop reading :D

 

I've noticed against flying with some buddies (me in P51), I could defend against the Fw190 boom and zoom sometimes if I extended in a shallow dive, then when the Fw190 came roaring down on me, I would pull a turn, soft at first so the Fw190 would think he could hang, then I would pull all out and more often then not he would overshoot. This was pretty much an energy trap. Now the Fw190 lost a lot of energy. Then I'd pull him into the scissors where I made holes in them. Its still possible in a P51 :)

 

This isn't perfect, and relies on your enemy making a mistake, but the key is to lead him into follow you, then force the trap

 

Edit:

 

The key with extending is that is better for you if the enemy has to make a more shallow dive at you, then a more vertical one. A shallow one is worse for their energy management

 

So, like this?

[MiloMorai]

From late 1944 P-51 used higher octan fuel which rise their boost for 75 inch.

 

If the argument one sees for 1.98ata is used for 75" boost then this boost should have been in use from April 1944.

 

[MiloMorai]

Consumption of 150 grade fuel

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/Consumption_150_Grade_fuel_Barrels.html

 

1 bbl = 35 gal

 

As one can see in June 1944 over 6 million gal of 150 was consumed.

[Konrad Friedrich]

:doh:

honestly i have the most fun with flying the p51 against the doras now...hopped on our server yesterday at night and killed 6doras in one flight...its very capable against the fw190.

 

You simply did not meet your master :D

 

(Take it as a friendly jibe ;))

 

 

I met several P-51 on your server - and none if them had the slightest idea how to dogfight...

Turn and burn - 10 feet above the deck...

Pointing up at me until they stalled, spraying .50cal rounds into the sky...

Well... than crashing because loosing control...

 

Got one pilot at 3000 meters that was not that bad but he skipped off the server when I got him in front of my long nose.

 

I hope we will get some decent, gentlemen pilots on the servers who take these sim planes serious and use them as intended...

 

But really the last thing I want to see is that it get's into a 'E-Sports' event.

I was quitting RoF because of that (ok - hardly compareable to DCS).

[Gascan39]

These 352 confirmed aerial victories had a good reson, I guess... ;)

 

 

Off-topic:

Btw... wouldn't it be a nice idea to make a F-86 Sabre Skin with Erich Hartmanns colours when he was leading JG71 of the BundesLuftwaffe in the late 50s/early 60s?

Anyone? :music_whistling:

 

 

Yes, a German skin on the Sabre would be nice...tulip nose perhaps?

[pingo]

Somehow I get this feeling that it wont be long before a flood of tracks will be posted on this very forum - there seems to be alot of experts around. FW pilots maybe?

[Konrad Friedrich]

Yes, a German skin on the Sabre would be nice...tulip nose perhaps?

 

OFF-TOPIC:

Yes, the 'black tulip'.

As it is displayed in Hartmanns Wikipedia entry.

I think there was only this version of Hartmanns 'Bundes-Luftwaffe' Sabre.

[outlawal2]

So everyone complaining about balance and needing this widget to combat that widget... Exactly what did the REAL pilots do when they went into battle with these planes? Cry to the CO about the fact that one aspect of their plane was inferior?

 

They flew the plane they had against the foe they had...

Sometimes it sucked... Most of the time they figured out ways to make it work..

 

I can't WAIT until the 262 is released and how it is going to bring on the DEMISE of WW2 multiplayer.. Get over it.. It is what it is

 

GOOD GOD

[Konrad Friedrich]

So everyone complaining about balance and needing this widget to combat that widget... Exactly what did the REAL pilots do when they went into battle with these planes? Cry to the CO about the fact that one aspect of their plane was inferior?

 

They flew the plane they had against the foe they had...

Sometimes it sucked... Most of the time they figured out ways to make it work..

 

I can't WAIT until the 262 is released and how it is going to bring on the DEMISE of WW2 multiplayer.. Get over it.. It is what it is

 

GOOD GOD

 

I totally agree.

Back then these pilots got what it was - and did the best.

And I think - apart from a wounded pride - we can handle that in a simulation as well.

 

Oh yes... the 262...

When this bird arrives..., well I'm waiting for the request of the P-80 - just for balance reasons...

:huh:

[OutOnTheOP]

So everyone complaining about balance and needing this widget to combat that widget... Exactly what did the REAL pilots do when they went into battle with these planes? Cry to the CO about the fact that one aspect of their plane was inferior?

 

They flew the plane they had against the foe they had...

Sometimes it sucked... Most of the time they figured out ways to make it work..

 

I can't WAIT until the 262 is released and how it is going to bring on the DEMISE of WW2 multiplayer.. Get over it.. It is what it is

 

GOOD GOD

 

First, get off your high horse and drop the intellectually superior "oh, I'm so frustrated by all these whiners" act.

 

You're right; the real pilots went into combat with the planes they had, against the planes the enemy had. In reality, when the plane the axis had was the FW190D9 with MW50, the plane the allied pilots had was the P-51D with 75" boost,

 

That's the problem: right now, the P-51 pilots are going into combat with the plane they had in early-mid 1944, against the plane the Luftwaffe had in early 1945. Things are NOT terribly historically accurate right now.

 

As to the 262, I think you'll find it will not cause the "demise" of the WW2 multiplayer, because most missions won't include it, and if it's modelled accurately, it'll have plenty of mechanical and handling faults that will hamper it plenty enough. Devastating to bombers, sure. Huge threat to fighters... not as much. If they use the one advantage they have (speed), the closure rate will be so high they can't get good guns solutions. And if they slow for a good shot, they'll be eaten alive by the prop jobs.

 

Besides, if you assume mission makers will be happy to play a perpetually anachronistic set of match-ups, then I suppose the US side will just have F-86s to counter the Me262s. Or, hell, why not F-15s?

[WinterH]

I think when 262 is released, early on a good deal of people who fly it will die a lot against prop fighters. It can totally dominate, but will need a very disciplined, calculated flying in order to do that.

 

If, on the other hand, 262 pilot, instead of to attack/extend/rinse&repeat, tries any kind of maneuvering fight, be it turning, scissors, or even vertical turns, or try to climb against them, all the late war prop planes can be very though nuts to crack for the Schwalbe :)

 

I am not sure if many people will fly it the way it should be flown, or choose to fly it too often.

[outlawal2]

First, get off your high horse and drop the intellectually superior "oh, I'm so frustrated by all these whiners" act.

 

You're right; the real pilots went into combat with the planes they had, against the planes the enemy had. In reality, when the plane the axis had was the FW190D9 with MW50, the plane the allied pilots had was the P-51D with 75" boost,

 

That's the problem: right now, the P-51 pilots are going into combat with the plane they had in early-mid 1944, against the plane the Luftwaffe had in early 1945. Things are NOT terribly historically accurate right now.

 

As to the 262, I think you'll find it will not cause the "demise" of the WW2 multiplayer, because most missions won't include it, and if it's modelled accurately, it'll have plenty of mechanical and handling faults that will hamper it plenty enough. Devastating to bombers, sure. Huge threat to fighters... not as much. If they use the one advantage they have (speed), the closure rate will be so high they can't get good guns solutions. And if they slow for a good shot, they'll be eaten alive by the prop jobs.

 

Besides, if you assume mission makers will be happy to play a perpetually anachronistic set of match-ups, then I suppose the US side will just have F-86s to counter the Me262s. Or, hell, why not F-15s?

 

Nope no high horse and not sure how my intellect was brought into this but recommend you don't go there... ;) Just tired of the same ole crap being spewed over and over...

 

And I find it absolutely HILARIOUS that your last line states exactly what we have been saying about this subject the whole time.. The mission builders can setup the missions to achieve balance..

 

Thanks for going full circle, contradicting your own argument and saying exactly what we have been saying all along..

 

So let's dispense with the "I need this feature now or it won't be fair" routine...

 

Fly the plane

[Konrad Friedrich]

 

Fly the plane

 

Amen!

 

:thumbup:

[pingo]

I totally agree.

Back then these pilots got what it was - and did the best.

And I think - apart from a wounded pride - we can handle that in a simulation as well.

 

Oh yes... the 262...

When this bird arrives..., well I'm waiting for the request of the P-80 - just for balance reasons...

:huh:

 

It's probably best that you jump in P-51 cockpit. Your posts might be more credible, instead of all the blah blah blah ......:D

[Konrad Friedrich]

It's probably best that you jump in P-51 cockpit. Your posts might be more credible, instead of all the blah blah blah ......:D

 

???

 

:huh: