so they built them with no aileron and rudder trim

[Sceptre]

Spits had no aileron trim though.

 

EDIT: Maybe the later ones did, I'm not too sure about that.

[Foul Ole Ron]

Don't think the later marks had aileron trim. Test flight reports of the XIV only make mention of elevator and rudder trim and that the pilot needs to be careful with them as they're responsive and powerful.

 

With things like extended climbs to 30k+ I imagine rudder trim would have been useful on any aircraft. Also useful to be able to set rudder trim for high speed attacks so the pilot doesn't have to worry about keeping the ball centred as much and put in the physical effort during a time he needs to focus on getting guns on target. Especially useful for ground attacks.

[leafer]

This is from topic "How to fly Dora" by Yo-Yo

"Currently in DCS the rudder is balanced for cruise at 2200-2400 rpm, though the required rudder input is small for the higher power ratings and corresponding speeds."

 

Thanks, wish they'd stick an info page and post something that vital in it.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

Yep seems to balance out at a level cruise of about 470km/h and 2400rpm. Which makes sense in the real world but in the sim we don't cruise in level flight for long. I fly a mission where I take off and do a fast climb at about 350km/h to 7000m. If there was a ground adjustable trim tab slider in the plane set up options I would move it to a lower speed and trim for fast climb over level cruise.

 

CLOD bf109s' are trimmed for the fast climb at full power. So we can take off, trim horizontal stab for 300km/h climb and she balances out hands free. It's much more enjoyable to fly like that.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

The more I test this, The more I think it is not quite right.

 

At any given stabilizer setting I can throttle back till I find the "balance point" where the forces harmonize and the ship flys straight, hands free. But it is always at a power setting that cannot sustain level flight. The closest I can get it flying at 350km/h at 500m at 1800rpm wit h1m/s sink rate.

 

Has anyone figured this out? If we could only adjust the trim tabs we could fix this so easily but seeing that we can't touch them it is a terrible shame to fly around holding the stick unnecessarily.

 

Quite frustrating really.

[DieHard]

How do you fly straight and level when it just want to roll left? The only thing you can do is to make adjustment every few seconds. this is crazy, no?

 

I was thinking about starting a thread on this topic...

 

I figure the engineers designing the real aircraft had their reasons not to have aileron or rudder trim.

 

When Germany after WWI was told not to produce weapons, they trained their pilots in home-made wooden gliders launched from hillsides. I remember seeing a photo of a very interesting basic glider with just a chair-like seat on top of a very thin, longitudinal wooden spar underneath. I wonder if they trained in these gliders with trim tabs included? The pilots feet were in the rudder pedals. Open air was underneath.

 

What I like about the DCS forums is outside of reading the flight manual, usually guys discuss and find workarounds.

Edited August 20, 2014 by DieHard

[NineLine]

Would be cool to be able to request trim while on the ground from the ground crew, and they would set it based on your load out, etc...

[cichlidfan]

Would be cool to be able to request trim while on the ground from the ground crew, and they would set it based on your load out, etc...

 

Am I misunderstanding, or is that not how it was in real life (not the request perhaps but trimming based on loadout by the ground crew)?

[OxideMako]

Would be cool to be able to request trim while on the ground from the ground crew, and they would set it based on your load out, etc...

 

That would be great!

[NineLine]

Am I misunderstanding, or is that not how it was in real life (not the request perhaps but trimming based on loadout by the ground crew)?

 

Thats the way I understand it.

[cichlidfan]

Thats the way I understand it.

 

So what condition/loadout is the aircraft trimmed for in the sim? Answer from Yo-Yo would be useful.

[NineLine]

So what condition/loadout is the aircraft trimmed for in the sim? Answer from Yo-Yo would be useful.

 

Yes, he or another Dev would need to answer that.

[cichlidfan]

Yes, he or another Dev does need to answer that.

 

Fixed. :)

 

Seriously, if trim cannot be adjusted (by the ground crew) then what is this a simulation of, a fully loaded aircraft, or clean or something in between?

[NineLine]

Fixed. :)

 

Seriously, if trim cannot be adjusted (by the ground crew) then what is this a simulation of, a fully loaded aircraft, or clean or something in between?

 

I would imagine it would be dependant on what type of documentation they had available in regards to trimming of the aircraft in 1944.... I have hinted at Yo-Yo to peek in here, we will see if he does.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

As a workaround for now I calibrated my flight stick a little off centre. I held it to the left and zeroed it, so it would push to the right a little hands free.

Has exactly the same effect as the aileron trim tabs.

 

This works great and the plane is now balanced hands free at cruise of 470km/h at 2300rpm in level flight at 5000m.

But it also feels better balanced through wide speed range either aside of cruise speed...

[rrohde]

As a workaround for now I calibrated my flight stick a little off centre.

 

That's a good idea. I forgot that my CH Fighterstick has built-in trim wheels. Going to try this. :)

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

That's a good idea. I forgot that my CH Fighterstick has built-in trim wheels. Going to try this. :)

 

The old CH Flightsticks came with trim wheels :-) Very handy in this case ....

[cichlidfan]

I can create trim functions quite easily in Target, as well. However, that is entirely unsatisfactory as a long term solution. ED needs to solve the problem of ground crew trimming.

[DieHard]

That's a good idea. I forgot that my CH Fighterstick has built-in trim wheels. Going to try this. :)

 

I was told by other guys more experienced than me that the trim wheels are something to do with aligning the potentiometers but hey if it works, what the heck. It's a good idea, worth a try. My CH stick is 3 years old of almost daily use and my trim wheels are still in their centered detents.

[HugePanic]

I have read a book of one guy who did thousands of factory rides on new spitfires. He was the guy who told the mechanics to adjust the trim tabs. There was a factory setting specificatin for this.

 

I truly belive that Focke Wulf did the exact same thing.

There is a spec, and that is what it is trimmed for. I don´t think that the average "Luftwaffe Pilot" did the calibration runs to adjust a airplane for his personal idea...

 

The problem you (some of you) guys have, is that you use a spring centered joystick!

Use a FFB stick, and you are set.

 

What is it with trimming in DCS?

In the KA-50 people don´t understand the trimm function.

 

In A-10 they are complaining/wondering that if you drop a MK82 from one side of the wing, that the airplane will need to be retrimmed.

 

At DORA, did the Germans screw up the design of the FW190??

Or did DCS ruin your game with a plane that build like it was 70years ago?

 

Come on...

[cichlidfan]

I truly belive that Focke Wulf did the exact same thing.

 

Did the pilots get told what conditions it was trimmed for, or was it a secret?

 

At DORA, did the Germans screw up the design of the FW190??

Or did DCS ruin your game with a plane that build like it was 70years ago?

 

That is the question. What did ED build?

[Chlebakus]

I have read a book of one guy who did thousands of factory rides on new spitfires. He was the guy who told the mechanics to adjust the trim tabs. There was a factory setting specificatin for this.

 

I truly belive that Focke Wulf did the exact same thing.

There is a spec, and that is what it is trimmed for. I don´t think that the average "Luftwaffe Pilot" did the calibration runs to adjust a airplane for his personal idea...

 

The problem you (some of you) guys have, is that you use a spring centered joystick!

Use a FFB stick, and you are set.

 

What is it with trimming in DCS?

In the KA-50 people don´t understand the trimm function.

 

In A-10 they are complaining/wondering that if you drop a MK82 from one side of the wing, that the airplane will need to be retrimmed.

 

At DORA, did the Germans screw up the design of the FW190??

Or did DCS ruin your game with a plane that build like it was 70years ago?

 

Come on...

 

Nice one. Trims seem to be some kind of magic for some pilots here. Dora was built like this and we have it like this. Its autorotation can be managed by throttle when cruising. And for combat and aerobatics? Just learn how to manage it with stick.

It is almost instruments attention free compared to many other WW2 fighters. And I dont speak about older ones. So I personally kinda like the raw feeling of this machine. It is very powerfull, but requires more sense.

[Fox One]

A few days ago I did a climb to 11,000 m. Used the profile from http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190d9test.html - 280 Km/h indicated until 7,000 m, then reduced airspeed gradually. At such a speed and 3,250 rpm a right stick and right rudder deflection was required to keep the plane straight. I have an X52pro and no rudder pedals. Determined to keep drag at a minimum during the climb, I used stick twist to keep the ball perfectly centered, at the same time applying slight right roll. By the time I reached 11,000 meters my hand was quite tired…

 

Then I had an idea – what if in Options menu, under “Special” tab for Fw 190 there was a chechable box – “Allow rudder and ailerons trim”. Nobody is forced to use it, maybe the default should be unchecked. This way one could artificially change rudder and ailerons neutral position using standard trim keys. I am always for maximum realism, but I was thinking – in this particular case, maybe there should be an exception. Using auto rudder is definitely not an option for me, I would rather fly something else. And in this case, aileron trim would still be needed anyway.

 

Some might suggest me a pretty obvious solution – buy rudder pedals! It’s not that hard to keep a rudder pedal slightly pressed! Honestly, I would rather spend the money to buy an new X55 stick. My X52pro is good enough to fly jets, and on Mustang I have trims for all controls, so no problems there too. But honestly, I knew it even before DCS Fw 190 D-9 appeared that, without rudder pedals I would not be able to fly the plane properly – I suspected it would pretty much always be uncoordinated one way or the other. Even if I had rudder pedals, I would still like to have the trim option I described above. It’s not that I am lazy. I can keep the stick slightly to the right and slightly twisted to a precise position if I want to, but what’s the point? Being able to do this makes me a better pilot? Keeping pretty much during the entire flight the stick slightly to the right and a bit of rudder applied doesn’t require some special talent. It’s just that it is annoying and tiring. And pointless. I am convinced that, having the ability to trim the aircraft to fly straight and coordinated “hands off” like I do in the Mustang would allow me to enjoy it even more than I already do.

 

Anybody think this trim option might be useful?

[HugePanic]

some more facts:

 

Aileron installation an adjustment manual can be found here:

http://www.avia-it.com/act/profili_daerei/libretti_velivolo/PA_libretti_PDF/Fw-190_Part_3.pdf

 

That document is not for Dora, but for the A-2 to A-6 variant.

 

To help you guys:

It says to trimm at max. contious power at ground level --> 480km/h

 

 

Maybe there were updated values for the Dora.

[MFG62 Joker]

Just to get that straight: from the last document you will see that it´s under the chapter 'Einfliegen'. This was a process where freshly produced planes where set up corrcetly in terms of adjustments and where final quality checks where undertaken before the planes were handed over to the Geschwader.

 

Only in very rare cases and only when very experienced pilots (we did only have a few of those by the end of the war) reported that a wing was hanging or the tail was deflected would ground personell (schwarze Männer) adjust the otherwise never touched trimm tabs.

 

Take in account that by that time a plane was either not used at all (due to a lack in fuel replacement) or only for a few engagements. Tons of planes were destroyed within first 5 flights by that time. This due to the fact that german fighters were easily outnumbered 10:1 quite a serious thing for the rare experinced pilots. Greenhorns only had very few hours and could be happy when surviving start, engament and landing.

 

So there simply was no need for mainenance or adjustments to the likes of pilots.

 

And after all its not so hard in the simulation because you do not have high forces in stick and rudder!

Edited August 20, 2014 by I./ZG15_FALKE