How did you learn to dogfight?

[Vedexent]

I've been using DCS just over a year.

 

In that time, however, I've pretty much been only flying ground-pounders and helos.

 

With the Sabre, I'm taking my first stab - no pun intended - at the complex world of air-to-air dogfighting.

 

I'm curious how the hell people learn this stuff? Just get up and play with it, see what works? Find a group/squadron to teach you? Read the "Big Book on how to Kill Other People with Fighter Aircraft" (and where do I get a copy)?

[cichlidfan]

Well, I can't answer the how to learn because I suck but as for the 'Big Book'...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599

 

Note that good condition used copies can be significantly cheaper.

[garengarch]

"Chuck Yeagers Air Combat"

Yes I'm old.

[Vampyre]

I learned by trial and error (mostly in Il-2, Falcon 3, and Janes F-15) but the basics I learned by watching The Art of the Kill video by Pete Bonani and reading Shaws Fighter Combat book. Situational awareness is the key. In multiplayer, a solid grasp of 1v1 BFM will serve you well most of the time because most people do not use wingman tactics. Wingman tactics are much harder to deal with.

 

[Exorcet]

I started with the LOMAC demo (not counting non ED sims) and fought the Mirage 2000 in my MiG-29 over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over... you get it. Then I bought LOMAC and fought MiG's in my F-15 over and...

 

There are a bunch of ways to go at it depending on what you're looking to achieve. For general proficiency, you will get that just by playing. It will come faster with guidance though. This can include talking with other people in MP, having someone teach you directly in MP, or watching some of the good Youtube,etc videos online. Specific real life tactics and such requires looking outside the sim to find as these things aren't always described in the manual or in the sim itself.

[Home Fries]

I started with F-15 Strike Eagle for the Atari 800, but believe it or not the first sim I flew that didn't reward pulling the stick into your lap (aka g for brains dogfighting) was ED's Flanker 1.0.

 

Best thing is to set up a scenario and do it. I'd use something like the Su-27: nice instantaneous turn rate, high thrust to weight ratio, can handle high angles of attack without departing, etc. Start with a non-maneuvering target and practice intercepts. Then practice different angles to the target and deflection shooting.

 

Next, practice with a maneuvering target, but something along the lines of a tactical bomber rather than a front-line fighter. Try to stay in position behind the aircraft before shooting; practice good lag pursuit.

 

Work your way up the fighter ladder; start with lower end fighters like the MiG-23 before you fight the F-16.

 

Watch Art of the Kill and visualize the lessons while you fly. Try to picture the lessons in a dynamic 3D environment and concepts like energy, angles, pursuit types, and turning room will become instinctive.

[159th_Viper]

Get to know your aircraft thoroughly.

 

Then master basic and advanced flight/aerobatic flight maneuvers, ie Split-S, Immelman, Yo-Yo's, Scissors and all the rest. Get comfortable flying in a 3D environment whilst mastering aerobatics. Once done, only then start concentrating on the principles of combat.

 

Aerial Combat is after all aerial ballet. If you cannot keep a step then you're just gonna end up twisting an ankle and hurting yourself every time.

[WRAITH]

DCS A.i Cadet Training Module is needed

 

I've been using DCS just over a year.

 

In that time, however, I've pretty much been only flying ground-pounders and helos.

 

With the Sabre, I'm taking my first stab - no pun intended - at the complex world of air-to-air dogfighting.

 

I'm curious how the hell people learn this stuff? Just get up and play with it, see what works? Find a group/squadron to teach you? Read the "Big Book on how to Kill Other People with Fighter Aircraft" (and where do I get a copy)?

 

Hi Vedexent,

 

The best way to learn the basics is using an analytical tool in Single Player is my approach. Then mastering Multi-player in true 3D environment with a human partner!

 

Use this tool......... http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-f4-en.php .... to analyze your strategy and dissect the tactics you employ.

 

This is done first by reading material and applying the theory like real pilots do in their cadet-ship and training missions.

 

 

 

 

Another fine example..............

 

Although you must have a thorough understanding of the instrumentation and you must be rated on that first.

 

Get to know your aircraft thoroughly.

 

 

Exactly......... if a pilot does not know what he is doing in a cockpit might as well eject ......... LoL

 

So then a student must apply knowledge and practical application using Radar, ECM, Jammer and tactics in BVR > WVR > ACM > BFM so forth.

 

There is a training gap that is heavily missing here and DCS should consider developing a better "A.i Cadet Training Program" Module .............

 

I made this proposal.............. http://freefalcon.org/single/?p=8046981&t=8449490 ............. if DCS Devs are willing!

 

That along with a good complete DCS Air Combat Manual is whats needed.

 

Here is my MediaFire Account if you really want to learn there is heaps there for anyone willing............. https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ururd96cwabd9/1._AIR_COMBAT_COMMAND_CENTER

 

DCS A-10C Manual Download.......... https://www.mediafire.com/?0m7jlw8b6m3uk00 .................... but we need something more comprehensive starting as a Cadet to Commissioned A-A and A-G Combat Pilot Training Manual!

 

The Falcon 4.0 Manual is not bad download it here............. http://www.mediafire.com/view/uc4hpii3dl9bdiz/Falcon%204.0%20Original%20Manual.pdf

 

Also you have these links if your interested.............

 

http://freefalcon.org/topic/8457688/

 

http://freefalcon.org/topic/8416732/1/

 

In future I imagine a DCS F-18E and a SU-27 with P-FM full avionics and full click-able 6DOF cockpits in a D.A.C.T scenario for serious simmers but we wait in hope! :music_whistling:

 

Well enjoy!

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:

Edited September 9, 2014 by WRAITH

[Hadwell]

Well i learned how to fly in JZG23, an il2fb squad, had a real 109 pilot in it, was darn near 15 years ago now so i don't remember his name, but by the time i was 19, i was up there with the best of them... but recently I've found this very helpful

 

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1222/index.htm

[Tumbleweed]

 

 

Thanks. Not seen this before. Off to watch it now :thumbup:

[Vedexent]

Thank you all for your great feedback.

 

Cichlidfan, thanks, I think I'll pick that up.

 

Vampyre, I watched that the other day, and I agree, it's good for getting some basic concepts in my head.

 

159th_Viper and Wraith - yes, I had been contemplating that exactly: working through basic acrobatic maneuvers, and then BFM, using tacview to critique and improve. As a side note, if you use Tacview, do you see any advantage over the Professional level of it?

 

Again, thanks for the great response, all :)

[Igor4U]

Documentary Series "Dogfights"

 

Howdy All !

 

A while back, I picked up the 10 DVD set of the complete Series of the History Channel's Documentary TV show: "Dogfights".

If any of you are interested in Military Combat Aviation - this is Must See TV (now DVD) !

 

"Dogfights" recreates famous Dogfights and Aerial Battles using outstanding animated simulation, expert narration, and interviews from the real participants.

 

Dogfights — History.com Videos

http://www.history.c...ogfights/videos

 

Dogfights (TV series)

http://en.wikipedia....hts_(TV_series)

 

Dogfights: The Complete Series Megaset (2009)

http://www.amazon.co...words=dogfights

 

 

After watching the "Dogfight" series, I had the following observations:

 

- The series does a good job of analyzing aircraft maneuvering (in relation to each other) during the engagements in 3-D airspace, and discussing the Basic Fighter Maneuvers employed. Also - they keep the viewer appraised of the pilot's energy management through out the encounters.

 

- The neatest maneuver I saw used over and over again (to prevent a 3/9 line overshoot) was the barrel roll into and over-top the opposing aircraft back to the outside and ending at the enemy's Sixish O'Clock for a Shot. The maneuver is there for the taking in DCSW, but keeping the enemy aircraft in sight during the maneuver is no doubt, tougher in the Sim than in Real Life.

 

- "Dogfights" does a good job conveying the brutal physical exertion involved in high-G maneuvering, and the super-human feats of some of those engagements lasting 5-10-15 straight minutes of non-stop maneuvering.

 

- A few things that they fail to mention (and may be beyond the scope of the narrative's discussion and the general TV audience's comprehension) are:

 

-- The concepts of a formation "Sorting" targets, and the "Engaged" and "Supporting" roles within the basic two-ship element.

-- The Situational Awareness Construct provided by Radio Calls concerning who is in sight (Visual & Blind for Friendlies) and (Talley & No-Joy for Bogeys/Bandits).

 

- Many of the portrayed engagements would lead one to believe that a breakdown of formation integrity and flight discipline was acceptable SOP. Yes - in the mayhem of air-to-air fur-balls, fighters can get separated and end up fending for themselves. But there's quite a few one-v-many fights (depicted) that give the uninitiated viewer the wrong idea that that is the way aerial combat was/is routinely conducted. Maybe it's just that many of the Great Engagements were the result of having to fight for your life alone (but maybe not unafraid).

 

- I recommend the Dogfight series for any DCSW pilot wanting to get a glimpse into, and feel for, the adrenaline infused encounters called aerial combat. Many years of training might be called on for real execution compressed into mere do-or-die seconds, with no second place ribbons. Fox 2 !

 

BVR

Igor4U !

[javelina1]

Well i learned how to fly in JZG23, an il2fb squad, had a real 109 pilot in it, was darn near 15 years ago now so i don't remember his name, but by the time i was 19, i was up there with the best of them... but recently I've found this very helpful

 

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1222/index.htm

 

Great post, thanks!

[Zychon]

I got most of my "fighting skills" (in other words, "bad habits") from the old Red Baron series. Later on, there was Jane's USNF but most of that was missile engagements.

 

I didn't come back to "dogfighting" until I played Rise of Flight. I played a ton of single player and got my gunnery up to snuff, but Mplayer was where I really wanted to be from the beginning. I started watching this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/Requiem10NS/playlists

 

After getting shot out of the sky a hundred or so times, I got enough skill to learn how to not die, and eventually to get a few kills. I talked to a friend of mine, and he told me about this:

 

http://pilotpress.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/inpursuit.pdf

 

Since then I have collected and read all the books and docs I could find online. Every document out there has value, but for me personally the greatest jump from "I know how the thing works now" to "I know how to hunt and kill now" was In Pursuit. It's geared toward WW2 flight sims, but the aspects of the book on the mental game and mental preparedness really helped me.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Zychon

[Raven Morpheus]

Dogfighting? Never really learned it. I can just about fly and take down some enemies in IL2 1946 though, which is what I play for my fixed wing enjoyment.

 

Obviously bombers are easy, as long as you can keep up and don't get shot. I have taken down a few Japanese Ki's and Zero's though in F4U-1D/Hurricane campaigns.

 

I've never really learned any particular ACM though, I just do what ever I can to get behind an AI fighter and press on my fire button when I can get a shot I think is on-target.

 

I actually don't do too badly but I suspect that if I went online I'd be massacred.

 

BTW I think it's a bit acnachonistic as to my knowledge they weren't used until 1958 but a 1954 F86F-40 in IL2 1946 (added by the Jet Era mods) comes with AIM 9B Sidewinders, I did a QMB mission the other day out of Berlin against 1 Mig 15 - the Mig didn't stand a chance... Would be interesting to see if the DCS variant has the same systems...

Edited August 24, 2014 by Raven Morpheus

[kontiuka]

Read the "Big Book on how to Kill Other People with Fighter Aircraft" (and where do I get a copy)?

Sorry. I've only read the "Big Book on how to Kill Myself with Fighter Aircraft".:music_whistling:

[cichlidfan]

Sorry. I've only read the "Big Book on how to Kill Myself with Fighter Aircraft".:music_whistling:

 

I wish I had known there was a book, it would have saved me some time. :lol:

[Vedexent]

Sorry. I've only read the "Big Book on how to Kill Myself with Fighter Aircraft".:music_whistling:

 

That book, I don't need - I'm a natural talent at that ;)

[SUBS17]

Thanks, I hadn't actually considered that the Sabre might not be a good beginning dog fighter. I wanted to start on the Sabre as it's the only DCS level clickable cockpit module fighter, to date (hopefully MiG-21 soon).

 

I have a TrackIR/HOTAS setup, and FC3, so I have the F-15 as well. I also have an affinity for Russian aircraft.

 

Is it safe to say that what you say for the F-15 in DCS would also hold true for the Su-27 / MiG-29?

 

Yes the more modern jets are easier to dogfight with because of the HUD dogfight modes, the sabres radar is a bit finicky I find and is prone to ground clutter. The best way to learn is to setup one vs one dogfight where you are vs something easier such as a SU25 or AN26 and then work your way up. Another good tgt is the SU27 because it has a bigger airframe and is easier to spot.

 

[Vedexent]

Yes the more modern jets are easier to dogfight with because of the HUD dogfight modes, the sabres radar is a bit finicky I find and is prone to ground clutter. The best way to learn is to setup one vs one dogfight where you are vs something easier such as a SU25 or AN26 and then work your way up. Another good tgt is the SU27 because it has a bigger airframe and is easier to spot.

 

Thanks, I'll try learning BFM on more modern jets first, then.

 

Given that I prefer Russian planes, I might invert your suggestion and try Su-27 vs. Sabre, C-130, and F-15, though ;)

[Stuge]

The Su-27 is fantastic to dogfight with! However may i suggest you start with the F-15 instead!

 

The reason is this: Su-27 has an old flight model, which basically allows you to pull your stick all the way back without any danger of spinning. I believe it's better to first learn to fly an aircraft which requires you to be careful about how hard you pull, since most planes really are that way. F-15 has advanced flight model, so it spins if you pull too hard :) this way you won't be in trouble later if you want to fly a plane that has more of a temperament :D

 

I got my skill 99% from just playing different sims (sp and mp) and 1% from random studying of the subject :D

[Nereid]

I'm incredible bad at dogfighting in DCS.

 

But it's true what you said:

 

There is a training gap that is heavily missing here and DCS should consider developing a better "A.i Cadet Training Program" Module .............

 

I wish there were some way (at least I do not know any) to create a mission where some AI pilots will do a barrel roll or other flight manouvers at a specific time. This may even great for aerobatics exercises as well.

[Vedexent]

The Su-27 is fantastic to dogfight with! However may i suggest you start with the F-15 instead!

 

The reason is this: Su-27 has an old flight model, which basically allows you to pull your stick all the way back without any danger of spinning.

 

 

My understanding was that the Su-27 now has the Advanced Flight Model - is this not the case?

 

------

 

EDIT:

 

OK - did some digging, and apparently Su-27 has Advanced Flight model, but not the Professional flight model that the F-15 now does.

 

In fact, there appear to be no Russian fighters with PFM - although I believe the MiG-21 will be the first.

 

Damn. I'm not sure that the MiG-21bis, with it's delta wing and it's limited angle-of-attack is a good "first time dogfighter".

Edited August 26, 2014 by Vedexent

[Vedexent]

I'm incredible bad at dogfighting in DCS.

 

But it's true what you said:

 

 

 

I wish there were some way (at least I do not know any) to create a mission where some AI pilots will do a barrel roll or other flight manouvers at a specific time. This may even great for aerobatics exercises as well.

 

There's always finding "practice partners" for this on Multiplayer.

 

If all you're looking for is multi-person acrobatic flying practice the server is usually pretty full.

[Solty]

How I learned to dogfight? Months of flying a given plane against AI in IL2... I was begining when I was young. I think I was 15 when I put my game on sim settings.

 

Read about maneuvers and try to do them during combat with AI... if you will be able to beat 1v4 you are ready for a human oponent.