That pesky Phantom dogfight

[lmp]

Just wanted to report that I shot down my first Phantom :). Big achievement for a lousy fighter like me. It's definitely easier than fighting a MiG-15bis in the Sabre, though it took me a few tries. I'm not great at energy management and the MiG-21 is more forgiving if you get slow - it stays controllable until you're practically falling out of the sky and the afterburner lets you recover energy quickly. Also, while I found that most of the time it's better not to go vertical with the Phantom, it's not as bad as in the Sabre vs Fagot case. I fired the burst that killed him when he was doing his climb. And if you do have speed that you're willing to trade, you can pull off a turn that the Phantom pilot couldn't dream of executing. Consider these the noob observations of a helo/Frogfoot pilot taking his first baby steps in the world of dogfighting ;).

[Runibl]

And very nice flying mate. Could almost feel the phantoms frustration. ;)

Thanks.

Noticed the same things.

Scissor fight to get behind him works for me every time, and after that it is fairly easy to stay there.

 

Fought a few more time with this one:

3rd

I finally critically hit him.

His Right engine caught fire on my last volley, which also were my last rounds.

He then disengaged and headed for home. I followed him the entire route until he landed, his engine was still on fire.

 

4th

Was bit more of a lengthy bfm fight with shifting maneuvers. But in the end he disengaged (Not sure why, perhaps turning off my radar helped)

But i would have non of it (training anyway), caught up and shot him down.

 

5th

This one went really low, and the F-4 crashed (not as much fun).

 

6th

This one was very hectic and fight for survival on both sides.

I had the upper hand in the beginning, Until a horrible mistake.

I ended up climbing after him straight up, and was not able to move my nose anywhere.

I was stuck pointing up, until I stalled and my engine cut out.

 

On my way down I hurried to start up the engine again while hoping he didn't catch me.

I succeeded, but he also got a shot on me and hit.

Still flying ok, the fight turn his way with me fighting like a madman for survival.

 

In the end he suddenly bugged out (propably out of fuel),

and as I suddenly realised, me too as my engines cut out.

Had to eject. Calling this one a draw :)

 

ACMI attached

Dogfight2.zip

[Exorcet]

I think it's more of a flight model issue. The ugly external model shows you how much attention the plane got, I imagine that apples to the FM as well. ED probably fudged some numbers to make it more capable in an Su-27/MiG-29 dominated environment.

 

I don't see why they'd do that. The 27/29 have the F-14/15/16/18 to fight with, there's no need for a super F-4. It might not be accurate but I wouldn't think it's purposely overly superior, other than it being more modern than the bis.

 

Is it safe to assume that you have not yet learned how to dogfight in the mig after merely two days of it being available to fly?

How long as a sim pilot over all? Also, the AI isn't exactly made up of fighter aces, though they do have magical properties at times. You shouldn't look at this like someone fresh out of training is complaining about being shot down in a war against experienced enemies, because it's different. Lack of experience could still be part of the issue though.

 

 

One of the things I've found in flying the MiG is that with default settings it takes lot more stick pull to get it to maneuver than it does for other modules. I'd be willing to say that the MiG-21 requires the most stick to maneuver. This can make it feel misleading sluggish if you're used to something like the P-51 that maneuver by breathing on the stick by default. Out of curiosity I turned up the sensitivity and the plane felt a lot more agile, but speed bleed off was still an issue.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

Just had a great fight 4 phantom v 1 MIg

 

First thing I did was stall my plane, stall my engine... then diving straight down to fan the engine and air start with a phantom on my tail and he gets a hit on me. Oh dear! But I got it going again and shot them all down before I ran out of ammo or fuel! woohoo!

 

trying to keep the fight slow the whole time... sounds crazy but it works

Mig21bisSlowspeedHiAlpha2.trk

[Cruiser18]

**** yeah! Finally got the bastard in a clean fight. Now to analyze what I did right :D

 

Im kinda suspecting that my decision not to to turn hard into my opponents path and instead go for more elongated turns to got around him might have done the trick. Full afterburn entire fight.

 

Tacview:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21570909/DCSworld/Tacview-PhantomFirstKill.acmi

PhantomFirstKill.trk

[IonicRipper]

I was struggling with dogfighting at first but I thought "meh its just an old soviet cold war plane, i didn't expect any more of it."

 

Then I started understanding how to actually fly it properly and of my god, this thing is incredible! I can see how it can get the best of even an F-15 in a close battle... This thing can fight!

[DJ 9mm]

I was struggling with dogfighting at first but I thought "meh its just an old soviet cold war plane, i didn't expect any more of it."

 

Then I started understanding how to actually fly it properly and of my god, this thing is incredible! I can see how it can get the best of even an F-15 in a close battle... This thing can fight!

 

great. want to share your secrets, or are you just teasing us :)

[Corvus]

I tried to do a dogfight against Phantom and after few hard turns, low level scissors I've managed to get on his tail. Seeing how outdated and ugly F-4 model is I've removed him from my view with 23mm bug spray:P

 

FwyJ_hlAqvc

[q800]

I believe, this had been said already. MiG-15, F-4 and other planes use simplified (or totaly basic) flight model. Thus, they have advantage in every way, as they subject to very different physics. They don't care about restrictions you, as a player, have to care about.

[IonicRipper]

great. want to share your secrets, or are you just teasing us :)

 

Ok you ready for this?

 

 

 

Practice

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But seriously: Keep your speed high, your AOA low and dont hesitate to use AB.

If you find yourself low on speed, do a turning dive.

Thats how it works best for me, your experience may differ.

Edited September 29, 2014 by IonicRipper

[Davros23]

Great video Corvus.

[lucien]

I've never gotten him in the turn, but I've got him in the merge.

first dogfight & professional landing.trk

[Corvus]

Great video Corvus.

 

Thanks!

[cz_jc]

haha oh good. So it's not me, haha. The intercept mission rules though.

[eyusuf]

I think it's more of a flight model issue. The ugly external model shows you how much attention the plane got, I imagine that apples to the FM as well. ED probably fudged some numbers to make it more capable in an Su-27/MiG-29 dominated environment.

 

 

Have you also considered taht the mig might be nerfed in its current beta config?

[mpdugas]

Corvus;

 

Do you recall (or did you record) your frame rates during this? It looked pretty smooth and stutter-free...

 

Nice job, though!

[TAW_Impalor]

A better instant Dogfight mission

 

Hi guys,

 

I just made a more fair and fun version of the dogfight.

 

MIG-21bis vs. MIG-21bis, using R-60 and guns. If you live, you must land on the X!!!

 

Just put it in C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\MiG-21BIS\Missions\EN\QuickStart instead of the original one.

 

Also recommend this labels mod: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/270020/

MiG-21 Dogfight.miz

[paleohayduke]

Here is my go at the instant action dog fight after the new update. I think the biggest issue is practice and a lot of study. With a little practice you will always kill the AI in dogfight (its flight model might be cheat but the AI is not the brightest guy in the world). My biggest issue is how often the F-4 will get into a stall and just fall to his death. Is there a common team speak for people on this forum?

 

Tell me what you think of my game play track(this is my first post).

dogfightMIG21.trk

Edited October 11, 2014 by paleohayduke

[paleohayduke]

Here is a youtube video recording of my fight.

Edited October 11, 2014 by paleohayduke

[KLR Rico]

It seems like the best way to get behind him is to pull into a vertical, and when he follows you up you can use the Mig's excellent instantaneous turn rate to pull up behind him as you come around the top while he's still in the climb. I guess it'd look like a figure "9". From there he's a sitting duck.

[Wayc00lio]

How do you get to dogfight a phantom? I've not seen that bit.....

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Instant action -> Dogfight

[Wayc00lio]

Cheers FS I'll fire up the flying machine :-)

[DJ 9mm]

i'm finding it much easier to beat the F-4 since the update. you can now simply out-turn him. if you have the energy, just pull all the way back on the stick, and the mig comes around pretty quickly.

[Wayc00lio]

They couldn't have put that mirror in a worse place for dogfighting!