How difficult is it to fly and fight in it ?

[jfri]

I'm considering buying it during this sale. But I do have some concerns regarding learning step and difficulty level.

From other Flight Sim titles like FSX I experience that it is significantly more difficult to fly a helicopter compared to ordinary plane. Is this Black Shark more difficult to fly compared to for example the P51D in DCS ?

Does it have so many buttons and levers that a particularly game controller is needed. Which I think is the case with the A10C which really need a Hotas.

What tutorial lessons are included and of how good quality ?

[Flagrum]

I'm considering buying it during this sale. But I do have some concerns regarding learning step and difficulty level.

From other Flight Sim titles like FSX I experience that it is significantly more difficult to fly a helicopter compared to ordinary plane. Is this Black Shark more difficult to fly compared to for example the P51D in DCS ?

Does it have so many buttons and levers that a particularly game controller is needed. Which I think is the case with the A10C which really need a Hotas.

What tutorial lessons are included and of how good quality ?

I think, up to today, the A-10C is the most complex aircraft in DCS when it comes to capabilities of the avionics suite and therefore requirements for a decent HOTAS. Ideally the TM Warthog is to be used with the A-10C as it replicates everything 1:1.

 

The helos are all ... "simpler"? Is perhaps not eactly the right term. The Mi-8 for example has about 5-10 times more switches and buttons than the A-10C. But you don't need them all all the time. Similar the MiG-21 - not quite as much switches than the Mi-8, but still way more than the A-10C - but here again, you "only" need one or two hand full to operate the aircraft in typical (combat) situations.

 

Now, the helos as such ... the Ka-50 is imho(!) not as complex as the A-10C when we talk about avionics. It has some modern(ish) devices which are basically computers which some sort of hide the complexity somewhat behind a user interface that consists of a few buttons where you have to wrap your head around eventually (as opposed to i.e. the Mi-8 where you have way more switches, but each switch servers only eactly one single purpose). But you can do that on your own pace - you don't need to know everything at once just to learn flying the Blackshark. So, don't worry too much about the complexity of the avionics suite too much. Having a HOTAS might still be a good idea as the real helo has a few buttons and hats on the cyclic and the collective. Many are happily flying the Blackshark with X-52, X-55 or G940.

 

The learning curve you will probably face is not so much avionics related - as I said, you can learn that "on the fly" (pun intended :o). But you have to be aware about the completely different flight dynamics of a helo (vs. fixed wing). But as the Ka-50 features a FCS that, besides the characteristics of being a coax rotor helo, makes it quite easy to fly. Also there are plenty of ressources available (videos, articles) that will help you there.

 

The "real" helo feeling, imo, you would get with the Huey. This helo is "bare metal flying" - like a go-cart. Fun as hell, if you ask me. The Ka-50 compared to that is more like a sedan (with pneumatic shock absorbers). The Mi-8 is, uhm, a 5 t truck. :o)

Edited December 26, 2014 by Flagrum

[jfri]

Having a HOTAS might still be a good idea as the real helo has a few buttons and hats on the cyclic and the collective. Many are happily flying the Blackshark with X-52, X-55 or G940.

 

The "real" helo feeling, imo, you would get with the Huey. This helo is "bare metal flying" - like a go-cart. Fun as hell, if you ask me. The Ka-50 compared to that is more like a sedan (with pneumatic shock absorbers). The Mi-8 is, uhm, a 5 t truck. :o)

 

I have a CH Flight Sim Yoke and a CH Throttle quadrant and Track IR- Also a not connected Microsoft Sidewinder joystick.

So the most easy to use DCS helo would be the Ka-50 ?

[Flagrum]

A Yoke is probably not ideal - neither for fighter aircraft nor helos (but that is just me, assuming, as I never used one myself). That Sidewinder is not a FFB stick, right? A FFB stick would probably the best choice as that would allow the helo trim function to act eactly as in the real thing - one obstacle less to worry about. But even if not FFB capable, I would probably prefer any joystick over a yoke.

 

The throttle quadrant is also probably not ideal, but will probably do for the one axis you need for the collective. Having rudder pedals would be also be a good idea. The Ka-50 does not depend that much on rudder pedals as the other helos (coax rotor dynamics vs. anti torque), but you need at least some analogue axis here as well. I am not sure that one of the other throttle quadrant levers will be much fun to use here ...

 

And about "Ka-50 is the most easy helo to use". I am hestiating to give you a definite answer here - I am somewhat biased and perhapy my first flying hours are too long ago as that I could be really objective here. Perhaps better wait for others to chime in with their opinions ...

 

But still ...

Semantically, no, as "using" the helo is bound to it's role. With a transport helo you basically just fly from A to B, but in an attack helo like the Blackshark, you also will fight in. And that ofc adds to the workload and the difficulties. (Yes, the Mi-8 and the Uh-1H can also be deployed in a combat role, but their capabilities are more limited to what the Blackshark can do and thus, even in combat I would consider those as being "easier to use".

 

Technically, yes, when we talk about flying around, as the Blackshark is somewhat easier to control due to the FCS and the coax.

 

How much is the Blackshark atm? You probably can't do anything wrong if you just try it. The Blackshark is a fighting machine. The Mi-8 handles more "helo like", but has a different role. The Huey is "the most helo-ish helo" we have and personally I like flying the most. Whichever you choose, you will eventually get the hang of it. And if you then discover, that you are in fact "a propeller head", you will probably unable to resist to get the other helos as well asap. ;o)

Edited December 26, 2014 by Flagrum

[Bushmanni]

Pedals are pretty much required for effective Ka-50 employment. You don't need awfully lot of buttons on HOTAS but it makes you much more effective if you do have them.

[TXSailor]

My two cents, as I use the helicopters here more than anything else:

 

HOTAS is not a must have for any of these since you have TrackIR. I've got an X55, but I only map the buttons which don't have cockpit switches, so I only map about 5 buttons.

 

The UH-1H is a handful. It's fun, absolutely, and the classic Helo, but it really is a handful. You NEED proper rudders for this one. This is the one to get if you just like the feel of a Helo.

 

The Mi-8, as the others have said, is a truck. Similar to a truck, it's smooth, very easy to manipulate, but not very maneuverable, and it's a lot of fun. The Mi-8 is really a dream to fly. You should probably have rudders for this one.

 

The Ka-50 is actually one of the more temperamental aircraft at first, because it's designed to fly with an autopilot, and you have to learn how to work WITH the autopilot, or you end up fighting it. Then there are a lot more systems to learn in the way of nav and combat systems. It's certainly very doable, and you can learn the basics of flying quickly, but be prepared to spend a lot of time learning before you go blazing into combat. This is the ONLY Helo I would attempt with a twisty-stick.

 

Bottom line, get rudder pedals. They make a night and day difference with Helos. After that, budget a modern stick and throttle. Your gear will WORK, but not well, and you'll get a bit frustrated because it won't mesh as naturally. But it's worth the investment. I have most of the DCS modules, and the helicopters are far and away the most fun!

[jfri]

My two cents, as I use the helicopters here more than anything else:

 

HOTAS is not a must have for any of these since you have TrackIR. I've got an X55, but I only map the buttons which don't have cockpit switches, so I only map about 5 buttons.

 

The UH-1H is a handful. It's fun, absolutely, and the classic Helo, but it really is a handful. You NEED proper rudders for this one. This is the one to get if you just like the feel of a Helo.

 

The Mi-8, as the others have said, is a truck. Similar to a truck, it's smooth, very easy to manipulate, but not very maneuverable, and it's a lot of fun. The Mi-8 is really a dream to fly. You should probably have rudders for this one.

 

The Ka-50 is actually one of the more temperamental aircraft at first, because it's designed to fly with an autopilot, and you have to learn how to work WITH the autopilot, or you end up fighting it. Then there are a lot more systems to learn in the way of nav and combat systems. It's certainly very doable, and you can learn the basics of flying quickly, but be prepared to spend a lot of time learning before you go blazing into combat. This is the ONLY Helo I would attempt with a twisty-stick.

 

Bottom line, get rudder pedals. They make a night and day difference with Helos. After that, budget a modern stick and throttle. Your gear will WORK, but not well, and you'll get a bit frustrated because it won't mesh as naturally. But it's worth the investment. I have most of the DCS modules, and the helicopters are far and away the most fun!

 

I forgot to mention that I also have the CH Rudder pedals (and saitek trimwheel) .

What do you mean with a twisty-stick ?

I already have made my investment. I decided that the throttle quadrant was a better choice than a stick. I also fly in FSX. What would my current MS Sidewinder lack that a modern stick have ?

[TXSailor]

I forgot to mention that I also have the CH Rudder pedals (and saitek trimwheel) .

What do you mean with a twisty-stick ?

I already have made my investment. I decided that the throttle quadrant was a better choice than a stick. I also fly in FSX. What would my current MS Sidewinder lack that a modern stick have ?

 

Twisty-stick is a stick that you twist for rudder movement if you don't have pedals.

 

If you're getting a separate throttle quadrant, you've got the rudder, I would just plug in the MS Sidewinder, and call it a day. As long as it has a hat switch, you should have everything you need!

[Sceptre]

It is the easiest helicopter in DCS to fly, also the highest performance (speed, climb etc). A very good way to start learning how to fly a helicopter, while also learning missiles and cannon at the same time )))

 

Since you have rudder pedals you should be fine for flying helicopters. The Black Shark is not as sensitive as Huey or Mi-8, so you don't need high end precision joystick like CH or something to fly it. I do not remember the Sidewinder having a hat switch, so you may be in need of some HOTAS buttons to control some things. If you don't mind using keyboard commands for a lot of stuff, you should not need.

[Jerkzilla]

The autopilots combined with the trimmer are really the main thing you need to learn to work with. It doesn't take that long but it isn't very intuitive either. Beyond that, the bulk of the stuff you need to learn to fight in the shark is pretty straight forward to learn.

 

Then theres the PVI800, but you don't really need it, I wouln't consider it a factor here.

[CASoldier2014]

Also learn the Flight Director/AP mode if you intend to fly manually with dampers :)

[arkroyale048]

My two cents.

 

Fighting with the Shark is the easy part. Flying and mastering... That is an art form.

 

In my experience, I learned the avionics and how to fight with the Shark, give or take about four hours. However; it took me weeks to make the Shark go wherever I want it to go... and with precision. Over the months I've been flying the Shark; I've changed flying styles a couple of times. First was flying with the FD and only turning it off when setting up a hover for vikhr shots. Then I switched (to what I believe) is the Eastern style (reference needed) ? Where I spam the trim button to get it to fly where I want. Finally I've settled for (again, reference needed) the Western style. Where I press and hold trim - maneuver - then let go of the trim.

 

Imho your first milestone should be transitions. How to transition from hover to forward flight and back to hover. Then after that; variations of getting into a hover (not just the nose up and play with the collective thing).

 

Finally, my last milestone and an indication of confidence with flying with the Shark was when I can make it dance around a flag pole, radio tower or the control tower.

[Suchacz]

It is not hard to destroy enemy, the hardest thing is to find them with your MkI. Eyeball :D

[Sceptre]

Also important thing to remember is, there is no warning for heat seeking missile. If you do not see white trail from enemy Stinger or IGLA, then you will not know to deploy flares.

[King_Hrothgar]

Without having read every post here, my opinion is it is the easiest chopper in the game to operate, the most enjoyable and clearly the best performing. In regards to overall complexity, I'd say it's medium by DCS study sim standards. It requires 2x 4 way hats and half a dozen buttons on your hotas to operate. The A-10C requires no less than 7x hats. My X-52 pro has all the important functions for combat on it, though just barely. In terms of start up complexity, it's very similar to the MiG-21 if you have that. It's a couple dozen switches, but it mostly consists of switching everything to the on position in no particular order. It's also mostly on the right panel.

 

In regards to flying, helos are different from fixed wing planes. I wouldn't call them easier or more difficult, just different. The Ka-50, being a coaxial design, tends to be a bit more symmetric in how it flies than the others. It's just as happy going sideways or backwards as it is forwards. It also doesn't try to tilt to one side nearly as hard as the other 2 choppers do as airspeed changes, though it still does it some. The aircraft also has multiple autopilot modes allowing for everything from stabilization to waypoint following. You can of course fly fully manual as well, which isn't that hard with some practice and unlocks some very impressive maneuvering capability.

 

For systems, it's only marginally more complicated than the Su-25T. Once the machine is fired up, the process for attacking a target is as follows:

 

1) Turn laser to standby/auto mode (generally done before takeoff).

2) Master arm on

3) Select pylon pair or cannon.

 

Steps 1 to 3 can be done in any order. Skip to step 10 if using unguided rockets or bore sighted cannon.

 

4) Activate air to ground moving target mode.

5) Use helmet mounted sight to put the targeting camera in the rough area of the target.

6) Use 4 way hat to slew camera onto target.

7) adjust target gate as needed.

8) adjust zoom as needed.

 

Steps 6, 7 and 8 vary in order.

 

9) Lock target.

10) Fire desired weapon.

 

Other than steps 1-3, this is identical to doing an attack with the Su-25T.

 

Navigation tends to require a couple extra button presses, but it's fairly intuitive once you realize the mfd and the nav panel are completely independent (redundancy ftw).

 

I fly the Ka-50 with an X-52 pro and TIR. I'm using the twist axis on the X-52 as I do not have pedals at this time. It works just fine and I find that to be true on all aircraft in DCS, BoS and RoF. I own FC3, all 3 choppers, the A-10C and the MiG-21. Of those, the Ka-50 is by far my favorite with the MiG-21 coming in second. I highly recommend this whirlybird.

Edited December 27, 2014 by King_Hrothgar

[Gibo]

I'm considering buying it during this sale. But I do have some concerns regarding learning step and difficulty level.

From other Flight Sim titles like FSX I experience that it is significantly more difficult to fly a helicopter compared to ordinary plane. Is this Black Shark more difficult to fly compared to for example the P51D in DCS ?

Does it have so many buttons and levers that a particularly game controller is needed. Which I think is the case with the A10C which really need a Hotas.

What tutorial lessons are included and of how good quality ?

 

I have KA50 since a month now and I think it is not so easy to fly. I think that the difficulty came from the fact that I had never used Helo but only fixed wing aircrafts (A10). I don't have rudder but i can fly the thing (I use the keyboard for the rudder); wath is difficult for me is predict the helo; some times it behave as it has a proper life and it's not easy for me to gain control back. Anyway it is a great sim but hard to master.

So my advice is:

buy it but don't expect to be able to perform acceptably soon

[Flagrum]

I have KA50 since a month now and I think it is not so easy to fly. (...) wath is difficult for me is predict the helo; some times it behave as it has a proper life and it's not easy for me to gain control back.

That sounds like you have difficulties with the autopilot system, i.e. you are "fighting the autopilot". Most of the Blackshark drivers struggled with this in the beginning - some more, some less. I bet, you have read the respective articles over at SimHQ, right? But - at least for me this was the case - knowing how things are supposed to work and putting this knowledge into use - two pairs of shoes. There is always the difference between theory and practice ;o)

 

But eventually you get the hang of it. Afaik everyone did so far! My advice in this case: re-read the articles occassionally. I often found aspects that I missed before or understood better what I though I already knew.

[Chappie]

I'm considering buying it during this sale. But I do have some concerns regarding learning step and difficulty level.

From other Flight Sim titles like FSX I experience that it is significantly more difficult to fly a helicopter compared to ordinary plane. Is this Black Shark more difficult to fly compared to for example the P51D in DCS ?

Does it have so many buttons and levers that a particularly game controller is needed. Which I think is the case with the A10C which really need a Hotas.

What tutorial lessons are included and of how good quality ?

 

 

Don't be afraid of the helicopters in DCS. Above a certain speed they act as fixed wing aircraft do albeit with limitations.

 

If you are interested in helicopter flight but prefer a softer introduction, the UH-1 may be the one for you. It is a stick and rudder bird with a simple trim system and offers pure challenge.

 

The two other helos are easier to fly but increase avionic and system overload while requiring a higher learning curve. This should not dissuade you as DCS has many modules with high complexity but, once learned (most important parts), will reward you for the time spent.

 

I own all modules except the Hawk and have learned them all to my own acceptance criteria and still learning. That is what DCS is all about... learning so don't be afraid to learn.

 

Also, don't buy into the mythic fairy tale that expensive flight hardware are needed such as an expensive HOTAS and head tracking. They aren't needed and this coming from someone who has used a Logitech Extreme Pro 3D for years. I eventually bought head tracking and gonna pick up rudder pedals for the 109 and 190 but all in time and over time.

 

The BlackShark should have tutorials and definitely a manual. Best place I found to learn was online so make use of the multiplayer module too.

[Isegrim]

Buy it>Master it>love it.

[shagrat]

There IS a set of interactive training missions available from the user file section on ED webpage that are better than the original video tutorials.

 

In general the Shark is a typical Russian aircraft and thus you need to get used to the Russian avionics. The ABRIS is a brilliant system, that has tremendous tactical value.

It is no Apache, but apart from Hellfire and a turret gun it is a real cool attack Helo. (I always wondered why they had the large gun with such a limited angle and not a smaller on a swivel turret constantly slaved to the helmet)

[Devrim]

Buy it>Love it>Master it.

Fixed for you. :D

[BitMaster]

I fly the ka-50 with a crappy low-button-count Logitech Freedom Cordless twist stick hehe.

 

I am not afraid of any enemy or scenario in the Ka just because I have an inferior stick. The Ka needs very little input to operate. The better you know "her" the less you need to dial and flick switches...but ut does take some time to accept the way the Kamov wants it. Don't fight her, give in and learn how "SHE" wants it. That maybe is the golden rule in the Ka.

 

I also own the A10-C but won't use it until I buy the Warthog in Feb or March this year. It is a nightmare to fly this plane without a million-button-horas haha

 

 

The Ka is the #1 Killer online if flown right. The A10-C is almost as good as it but can damage less per time and refuelling is way more time intense ( no FARPs ).

 

If the Ka is flown right with a trained MkI. Eyeball you have nothing to fear, no SAMs, no fighters cause you stay way down and behind, you trigger SAM shots until those are empty and you fly around your TA until you know whats going on...that is fighting in a Ground Attack Helicopter ;)

 

Stay below 20m, stay AWAY from SAMs and LOOK LOOK and LOOK again before you engage.

 

 

Bit

[Isegrim]

Fixed for you. :D

Way yes but in another Context.:smilewink:

 

Many prior A10-C Pilots have big problems to get really used to the Shark.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Isegrim

[jfri]

Don't be afraid of the helicopters in DCS. Above a certain speed they act as fixed wing aircraft do albeit with limitations.

 

If you are interested in helicopter flight but prefer a softer introduction, the UH-1 may be the one for you. It is a stick and rudder bird with a simple trim system and offers pure challenge.

 

The two other helos are easier to fly but increase avionic and system overload while requiring a higher learning curve. This should not dissuade you as DCS has many modules with high complexity but, once learned (most important parts), will reward you for the time spent.

 

I own all modules except the Hawk and have learned them all to my own acceptance criteria and still learning. That is what DCS is all about... learning so don't be afraid to learn.

 

Also, don't buy into the mythic fairy tale that expensive flight hardware are needed such as an expensive HOTAS and head tracking. They aren't needed and this coming from someone who has used a Logitech Extreme Pro 3D for years. I eventually bought head tracking and gonna pick up rudder pedals for the 109 and 190 but all in time and over time.

 

The BlackShark should have tutorials and definitely a manual. Best place I found to learn was online so make use of the multiplayer module too.

 

Well for now I have purchased the Black Hawk. I have tried the first interactive lesson where you start it. It's a problem to see and understand where the switches are supposed to be. I have fully completed it once.

I see there are still time to get the UH 1

[Akki]

The autopilots combined with the trimmer are really the main thing you need to learn to work with. It doesn't take that long but it isn't very intuitive either. Beyond that, the bulk of the stuff you need to learn to fight in the shark is pretty straight forward to learn.

 

Then theres the PVI800, but you don't really need it, I wouln't consider it a factor here.

 

+1