can you remove the excessive DRM please?

[nap0leonic]

Dear Eagle Dynamics

 

it's now the year 2015, the games you are producing and publishing now are niche in the niche little corner of the market, so why instead of being nice to the small (potential) customers, you continue to shove outdated DRM with troubled history to your fanbase?

 

this way of doing business is very outdated and of contrary with the recent trend on the niche market.

 

I've been long wanting to get into DCS world, but everytime I saw the DRM displayed in the steam store page it just left sour taste in my mouth and mind so I keep back away from it, also the fact that even the non steam version also said to have similar DRM.

 

I'm rather surprised that this matter hasn't been in the spotlight here, so if I am wrong then feel free to correct me.

[BIGNEWY]

I understand some people not liking DRM, personally I have never had a problem with it.

 

you get 10 activations. You can deactivate the key to get it back. The key is stored in your registry so you can install and uninstall the sim as often as you like without using up a key. Generally the only way to lose a key is a hardware upgrade or you reformat and you forget to deactivate it. Also at some point, can't remember when, keys will be resupplied every 30 days.

[Aginor]

Actually IMO this DRM is ok. I'm not a huge fan of DRM in general, but as a software developer I understand the need for it, especially in a niche market.

And to be honest, this one works pretty flawlessly for me, and it is really friendly with its key management that - when properley used - ensures that you will never run out of keys.

 

EDIT: I absolutely agree with the people disliking the StarForce disc protection systems. Installing a rootkit on your PC and such things is crap. It could even break your windows installation. But this one has none of those problems as far as I know.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Aginor

[winz]

this way of doing business is very outdated and of contrary with the recent trend on the niche market.

Yes, ED should move to the current trend. That is to create an online authentication service, they could call it ED-Play, strap some quick build e-shop on top of it, so it couldn't be called allways online DRM. Mandatory client you have to install is a given. The current trend would also require the whole service to collaps everytime a new module is released.

 

That would certainly be much better than the current scheme - enter CD key during first launch a never care again.

[nap0leonic]

I understand some people not liking DRM, personally I have never had a problem with it.

 

on the steam store it also say DCSW use Starforce, is it the same with the stand alone version?

 

nevertheless my stance is still the same, I'd much prefer the game to not use such outdated copy protection system that has a rather nasty history and bad reputation in the past...

 

this is of course my assumption, but I really think the mainstream gamers / non simmers / non aviation lovers of today ARE NOT EVEN finding it worth to pirate DCS stuffs, I'm not even aware of any newer A-10C pirated version being available out there... for the 99% of the gaming world, this community DO NOT EXIST anymore, it's unlikely that someone out there stumbled upon DCS series that does not want to pay for it at this day and age... and so on... so putting excess DRM on this product only hurting the core fanbase more than protecting your sales potential...

 

if the developer and publisher can't see this reasoning then it's very unfortunate.

[nap0leonic]

Yes, ED should move to the current trend. That is to create an online authentication service, they could call it ED-Play, strap some quick build e-shop on top of it, so it couldn't be called allways online DRM. Mandatory client you have to install is a given. The current trend would also require the whole service to collaps everytime a new module is released.

 

That would certainly be much better than the current scheme - enter CD key during first launch a never care again.

 

I said specifically the trend on the niche market, not the trend on high profile AAA market

 

I don't know about you, but many niche games I bought on early access or backed at crowdfunding are not using excess DRM, some of them even promised to be available without any DRM

[BIGNEWY]

on the steam store it also say DCSW use Starforce, is it the same with the stand alone version?

 

yes stand alone version uses starforce.

 

Once you understand how it works it really is no issue.

[winz]

What excess DRM are you talking about? Because DCS uses starforce proactive that has nothing to do with the starforce DRM you're most likely talking about (the one using ring0 driver for DVD checks).

It doesn't install any driver, or any other 3rd party software. It uses a simple onetime online activation via CD-key. No 3rd party apps required, no constant internet access required. It is much less restrictive than any other DRM method used today (including steam).

[BIGNEWY]

Info from the quick start pdf in our docs folders

 

Using the activation number provided (on back of Quick Start Guide or provided

by online store), you will be required to activate your game purchase

prior to flying a mission. During the Activation process, the copy protection

system will create a hardware profile of your system and compare that to your

current system each time you start the game. If there has been a significant

change to your computer, like replacing significant hardware items or changing

your Operating System, you may be required to reactivate your purchase.

Each game license (disk) has 10 activations and 10 deactivations. You can activate

your game up to 10 times. The number of installations is unlimited!

This game also allows Activations Automatically (“AAA”) technology that enables

you to create a new activation once every 31 days. This ensures that you

can still play the game, even if Eagle Dynamics no longer exists someday. This

function is enabled after all 10 default activations have been used.

If the copy protection system detects changes to your computer

hardware/software as described below, an activation will be required. It's important

to note that deactivations are utilized to save your activations when altering

your PC hardware/software. Before conducting a PC upgrade/OS

re-install, you can deactivate the product and when complete, reactivate without

a loss of activations. Again though, you can install the game as much as

you wish.

http://www.star-force.com/support/users/deactivate/

[nap0leonic]

What excess DRM are you talking about? Because DCS uses starforce proactive that has nothing to do with the starforce DRM you're most likely talking about (the one using ring0 driver for DVD checks).

It doesn't install any driver, or any other 3rd party software. It uses a simple onetime online activation via CD-key. No 3rd party apps required, no constant internet access required. It is much less restrictive than any other DRM method used today (including steam).

 

if it simple cd key activation then why it called starforce? as you implied, the name starforce itself has bad history so it does pose legitimate concern for me.

 

if it simple cd key activation then why is there activation limit (especially the one likely forced upon hardware change detected)? for comparison I've just built a new right a month ago and all my steam games automatically work after simple steam client reinstallation, no hardware change reactivation threatening me whatsoever, shortly after that my processor died and requires me to 'bug hunting' which lead me to buy a new SSD (because the old SSD was one of the suspected of failing; and I WAS FORCED TO REINSTALL WINDOWS in which bypassing the sad neccessity of deactivating DCS if I already had it installed before), so again no reactivation whatsoever threatening me from accessing other games on steam...

 

am I right that such accidents may require me to reactivate DCS modules if I had it? sooner or later I may be prevented to play DCS modules I paid just because my GPU failed or something; for me such a thing quite unacceptable on this day and age, certainly not for such niche product.. I know I can get new reactivation keys but geez, that is almost similar to always on drm that prevent you to play because your ISP having trouble with the network; and again as comparison my other games on steam just don't have such threat ready to shove knife on my neck or such.

 

I hope you can see my point.

Edited January 19, 2015 by nap0leonic

[BIGNEWY]

no you are wrong and you need to read the above quote

 

you can not run out of activations, you deactivate before doing an upgrade there is no issue, you can also deactivate a module at any time and save that activation from being used up, if you have a hardware failure you still have up to 9 activations, and as soon as you get to 1 activation it supplies one activation a month.

 

You would have to be very careless to get to that stage IMHO.

Edited January 19, 2015 by BIGNEWY

[golani79]

am I right that such accidents may require me to reactivate DCS modules if I had it? sooner or later I may be prevented to play DCS modules I paid just because my GPU failed or something; for me such a thing quite unacceptable on this day and age, certainly not for such niche product.. I know I can get new reactivation keys but geez, that is almost similar to always on drm that prevent you to play because your ISP having trouble with the network.

 

I hope you can see my point.

 

srsly how often do you expect such a hardware failure to happen?

You´ve got 10 activations for each module and regain activations - so where´s the big deal?

Edited January 19, 2015 by golani79

[Scarecrow]

Is it still Starforce? I hadn't even noticed. Never had a problem.

 

Your point is only valid in a small number of circumstances, so you had a bad day and blamed a software developer on the internet. You don't need to be that guy:thumbup:

[Cnuke]

You fear the old starforce and have little knowledge about this newer ''starforce pro active 2.0'' that is being used and what is being restricted for DCS serials.

Also the company has weighted all ins and outs, and don't need help from your assumptions. As it proved to be good for their business while paying for software copy protection.

 

You can deactivate your key before any hardware change and get back the activation. If you somehow used all 10 activations you get one back every month.

If you need support you get it for your product when you didn't abuse the key I suppose.

 

I don't know why you would mention steam when it comes to a request for DRM removal for DCS.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Cnuke

[Flagrum]

I'm rather surprised that this matter hasn't been in the spotlight here, so if I am wrong then feel free to correct me.

Because it is more or less a non-issue. In 99% of all cases it works without any problems. Then there are 0.9% where "accidents" (forgot to deactivate before re-installing windows and the like) happen. These usually can be fixed easily (remember, you have 10 activations and even if those are used up, you are provided with a new one each month). The remaining 0.1% are solved when you file a support ticket.

 

... the mainstream gamers / non simmers / non aviation lovers of today ARE NOT EVEN finding it worth to pirate DCS stuffs, I'm not even aware of any newer A-10C pirated version being available out there... for the 99% of the gaming world, this community DO NOT EXIST anymore, it's unlikely that someone out there stumbled upon DCS series that does not want to pay for it at this day and age...

Seems that the DRM works well then. Sure, everything can be cracked, but to prevent the typical script kiddie to mess around with it, it seems to work well. And to be honest, if THOSE are the 99% of the gaming world, I and probably also ED and the 3rd party devs can happily live without them. I am really not sure what you are trying to say here - that it would be a good idea if tons of cracked DCS software were floating around?

 

Besides the fact that DCS World is free and comes with free aircraft - for those who accidentally stumble upon it.

 

if it simple cd key activation then why it called starforce? as you implied, the name starforce itself has bad history so it does pose legitimate concern for me.

Afaik it is like "Windows". Windows 3.11 is a completely different thing than Windows 7. Why does MS call it still Windows if it had (has? :o) such a bad reputation?

 

I do get your point, though. But the truth is just, that "our" StarForce has about nothing in common with the StarForce you have in mind.

[Korn]

I'm a DRM hater but i think this is the best way to implement it. I only had one problem when the Starforce server were down for a short while and i couldn't activate a new module (i think it was the Kurfurst) for like 10 minutes.

 

Imo this approach with serial numbers and online login is the way to go, yeah i know nobody likes seeing their activation/deactivation numbers go down but even if you use them all you'll get another one after a month. So basically you can upgrade beyond the threshold every month and not even have to worry about deactivation and what not. If you upgrade your cpu more then once a month, i don't know, i guess you can afford an extra copy of your modules :P.

 

I don't see what is the issue, i know starforce got a bad rep (for good reasons) when years ago they messed up big and there still are people who can't get over it but they need to relax.

I'm a paranoid mofo but like i said i got no issues, in my oppinion ED are very reasonable, they have tools to unbind/move the keys between accounts so yeah... what do you want? No DRM? I'd like that too* but since it won't happen i'm pretty much happy with the way it is now. It's just straightforward, no 3rd party software running in the background, no nothing, just a simple key check at installation and login for multiplayer, i like it.

 

 

*but i wouldn't if no DRM would hurt the sales... and it probably would.

 

 

What i'm saying is: what excessive DRM? The only less obtrusive DRM they could have is no DRM at all.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Korn

[nap0leonic]

so tell me why do I need to deactivate activate the game every time my hardware changes? what is the benefit for me to have to do that when 99.99% games out there don't even do that anymore? as I said it, I was forced to change my hardware and my other steam games automatically accept it no questions asked.

 

and what exactly the benefit for you the developer and publisher? again 99.99% games out there don't even has this archaic DRM system anymore.

 

alright let say this new starforce is no longer like the one in the past, still it's very reasonable to assume that that name scares potential customers away and I can testify that I've seen people on forums saying they want no part of DCS simply because it says starforce, again all the hassle with little to no benefit for both us customers and developers/publisher

 

it's 2015 with all the resurgence on 'indie' developer producing niche games (especially on pc) offering games with little/simple to no DRM system, why persist on something archaic, burdening the customers with little to no benefit for everyone that matters???

 

Seems that the DRM works well then. Sure, everything can be cracked, but to prevent the typical script kiddie to mess around with it, it seems to work well. And to be honest, if THOSE are the 99% of the gaming world, I and probably also ED and the 3rd party devs can happily live without them. I am really not sure what you are trying to say here - that it would be a good idea if tons of cracked DCS software were floating around?

 

what I am seeing is, this DRM is NOT PROTECTING DCS sales, only hurting them by scaring potential customers away and in the end, a totally unecessary hassle/burden for the legit customers with zero benefit for the all involved.

 

 

 

 

and to be honest, after seeing this thread, I think those defending it are out of touch with current reality in pc gaming / this market, there is no justification I can see with such system, not in the age where people are happily literally throwing away $$$$$ for early access games, crowdfunded games or even deliberately held back DLCs in AAA games.

[BIGNEWY]

and to be honest, after seeing this thread, I think those defending it are out of touch with current reality in pc gaming / this market, there is no justification I can see with such system, not in the age where people are happily literally throwing away $$$$$ for early access games, crowdfunded games or even deliberately held back DLCs in AAA games.

 

We get it, you do not like DRM in any shape or form, some of us are not seeing it your way so we are wrong / out of touch (apparently).

 

 

what I am seeing is, this DRM is NOT PROTECTING DCS sales, only hurting them by scaring potential customers away and in the end, a totally unecessary hassle/burden for the legit customers with zero benefit for the all involved.

 

ED have chosen to use starforce it has worked well for them, if it was effecting their sales I am sure they would do something about it, but they have not.

 

That must tell you something?

[Kuky]

I've been using this sim for years now (as many others) and never had any issue with it. I don't know how often you change your hardware (erm... surely it's not that frequent) and if you do, by the time you run out of 10 activations (that is if you upgrade PC every year), you still have years till you run out... and when and if you do, it gets replenished by 1 new activation in a month. This is not bad at all so I don't know what your issue is.

 

There's been many upgrades in sim and I've upgraded my PC many times (new SSD, new Video card etc) and not once did I have issues, and I still have few activations left. So I don't understand that you see such big issue with it... it's no issue at all, and ED need to protect their intellectual property and hard work, you cannot complain about that.

[golani79]

so tell me why do I need to deactivate activate the game every time my hardware changes?

 

Let me ask a question - how often do you change your hardware?

[BeachAV8R]

No complaints out of me either. Far less intrusive than Origin or UPlay. If this is bad DRM, please make it worse ED. I mean, I don't not take Tylenol because of the big Tylenol scare of 1982.

 

BeachAV8R

[Flagrum]

offering games with little/simple to no DRM system, why persist on something archaic, burdening the customers with little to no benefit for everyone that matters???

 

and to be honest, after seeing this thread, I think those defending it are out of touch with current reality in pc gaming / this market, there is no justification I can see with such system, not in the age where people are happily literally throwing away $$$$$ for early access games, crowdfunded games or even deliberately held back DLCs in AAA games.

Well, ED is here on the "little/simple" DRM side...

 

While it is true that the DRM offers no benefit for us customers, it is also true that it does not really take away anything from us either. And that is why I would not say that we are defending this approach. We rather do not really care - as it does not affect us in our daily use of the software.

 

And as others already said, it is EDs business decision and we are not in the position to judge how they do their business. Only if it would affect us - on a technical level - we might be entitled to have an legitimate opinion. But it doesn't affect us in reality.

[G00dnight]

In my opinion all the OP and others like him want is a game/program with no or little protection that they can easily copy for all their mates.

companies need protection and there are many ways of doing it, In my opinion ED/DCS way is about as good and flexible as they come while still giving the company a decent level of protection for their property.

If you don't like it for whatever reason then don't buy. simples..

[Abburo]

I also want to mention that this system allows to transfer and take back the ownership at any moment for any user. As far as I am concern I know no other game/app doing this and to be honest I am really using this feature.

[Cnuke]

''I stopped smoking cigarettes..... it was really bad for my health'

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*Steaming a big cigar*