How the hell did new pilots not crash when taking off/landing?

[skendzie]

I am so curious how new German pilots did their training. I consider myself to be a not so dumb guy, I've read the manual, I've done the training, and watched Youtube videos. I crashed about ten times before taking off successfully and have landed about 1 out of 5 times lol. I'm great in a Cessna but this thing is so different!

 

I know that's no substitute for official training but it's hard to imagine not crashing this thing at least once :megalol: Does anyone have any insight on how the Luftwaffe prepared their pilots??

[Teapot]

I am so curious how new German pilots did their training. ....

 

I'm great in a Cessna but this thing is so different!

 

I know that's no substitute for official training but it's hard to imagine not crashing this thing at least once :megalol: Does anyone have any insight on how the Luftwaffe prepared their pilots??

 

Well ... it's not general knowledge and this probably comes as a shock for most people ... from left field in a manner of speaking ... out of the blue ... a shocking thunderbolt of insight ... but, despite the stirling reputation for high fidelity that the DCS models have, the Luftwaffe didn't use this sim.

 

They used real airplanes instead; which apparently were even MORE high-fidelity than DCS ... though I'm a bit incredulous about that last claim. :D

[skendzie]

Right but if you're training in a trainer plane and hopped into the D-9, I would think it would be way way different. Different enough to make you crash! I've taken off with a Cessna a few times and it was a piece of cake. I guarantee I would explode in a ball of flames if I tried with the Fw 190.

[ARM505]

Taildraggers during the take-off, landing and to some extent the taxi are very dependent on the seat of the pants feel, something a sim cannot give you. That being said, I find the 'damping' effect of real aircraft to be more consistent. Something with the difficulty of some sims (the DCS taildraggers for one) would have had a brutal reputation IRL, and frankly wouldn't have been released to general service as they were :)

 

Car racing sims (IMHO) suffer from a lot of the same problems, despite their frankly excellent physics (I'm enjoying Assetto Corsa right now, very nice Nurburgring!)

[Eros]

Well for starters, Cessna is not a tail dragger and is a trainer aircraft built with this in mind.

It's easy as hell and can take a punch. I've done some very nice crab landings on it during my training till i get used to the rudder not being on the joystick! :megalol::megalol:

 

It is mentioned in history books that a lot of 109 pilots had problems with their landings and take offs. In fact they lost quite a number of planes and pilots on landings.

That's for the 109 which had a weak gear system. I haven't read anything about the 190 though.

[Kwiatek]

Dora got some problems in DCS during take off roll expecially at moment when you rise the tail wheel. Something is not exacly natural to me. You have to be very very gentle of these casue plane could do crazy things then. Suprisly landings are far much easier then take off in D-9.

[fltsimbuff]

Balance

 

I imagine it is probably a lot like riding a bike. If you have a realistic bicycle simulator where you have to use a controller to shift your weight, you probably won't get far in the sim.

 

On the other hand, when you are there and can rely on your sense of balance to detect the slightest movement or force, you can immediately counter it. You just can't replicate this in any sim.

 

We miss so much in being unable to affect some of our finer senses.

[Eros]

That's totally true..I live for the day when we can input senses to our brain to feel gravitational forces, movement and maybe pain if bullet hits pilot :P :pilotfly::joystick::helpsmilie:

Edited April 3, 2015 by Eros

[Alladyn]

=====================================

 

Imagine this:

about us in dcs:

You never drove a car, yet you had been put in F1. I bet you wouldn't start, and then crash many, many times ^^

 

It is no surprise that new pilots were crashing on take off and landings right? We have enough prof on 109 side, as some one mentioned earlier... On other hand, I heard that D-9 were used after war by Italy or Spain?

I'd like to sink in documentary from that times. If Dora was used after the war, by poor countries back then, then there had to bee manuals, trainings, something, anyone?

 

btw nice document: 18:00 The Propeller on Take off run

Edited April 3, 2015 by Alladyn

[Nevyn]

They used cheat codes and flew on easy.

[Nedum]

I am so curious how new German pilots did their training. I consider myself to be a not so dumb guy, I've read the manual, I've done the training, and watched Youtube videos. I crashed about ten times before taking off successfully and have landed about 1 out of 5 times lol. I'm great in a Cessna but this thing is so different!

 

I know that's no substitute for official training but it's hard to imagine not crashing this thing at least once :megalol: Does anyone have any insight on how the Luftwaffe prepared their pilots??

 

The Sim simulates the ground behavior really bad!

At ground the planes act like on ice. I am sitting the whole long day directly at a runway with starts and landings of many taildragger and have NEVER seen any of this behavior even at strong sidwinds.

As long as you in the air, it's more or less plausible, but on ground... no way... the German Luftwaffe would have lost 90% of their pilots during the first flight week!

Ok, we do not get the real feel for the plains with our butts, but if not, then we must simulate this feeling or give those birds a more plausible behavior at ground.

 

But most here will say: "it's super hard.. so it must be like in RL! 100.000 german pilots died during the first flight week!" :megalol:

Edited April 5, 2015 by Nedum

[Random]

It's simply the lack of feedback.

 

In a real plane you can feel the TINIEST uncommanded yaw and correct it. In sims you dont have that. You are relying on visual references and dont have any peripheral vision due to monitors being small. Nose up in the air so you cant watch the horizon for any yaw.

 

Practice is the only way and remember to keep the stick back to lock that tailwheel when needed ;)

[sobek]

But most here will say: "it's super hard.. so it must be like in RL! 100.000 german pilots died during the first flight week!"

 

Please, nobody is saying that. Can we please get past this pet straw man of yours?

[arglmauf]

The problem in my opinion is not just missing feedback but the missing ability to use these feedbacks to avoid problems that we have much less time to react to.

 

Example, the yaw when your tailwheel starts lifting (a real problem with taildraggers I've been told). A real pilot (I guess) would feel much earlier that the tail starts lifting (in combination with a sense for speed and acceleration that cues him about the tailwheel lift coming soon) and can compensate for it much earlier. We on the other hand only have the visual horizon or the beginning yaw when the tail lifts which is frankly already way to late to make a clean takeoff-run.

 

DCS is kinda in pickle there, the modelling is great... so great, that these effects start becoming a "problem" where older sims simplified them greatly. So the only thing we can do is keep crashing and start defining somesort of "checkpoints" like certain speeds on the dial when we can expect these effects. For the Dora e.g., I prefer using the roll indicator to cue me about how I have to stabilize it. Takeoffs are messy but they work.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

IMHO the thing is nowadays a tail dragger is a "rare" bird and we are used to tricycle gear so there's a "legend" about them to be so hard and difficult, almost impossible to fly... And they are tough of course, but back then simply every plane was a tail dragger so you were flying them since the very first day with no choice. When you reach fighter school may be they weren't prepared for combat, but they knew the flight basics in a tail dragger quite well, at least enough.

 

Anyway, of course there was accidents, Heinz Knocke in his book tells how in his flight exam the first out of three pilots being himself the third to fly pulls out of ground too soon his Emil (single seat so you soloed without previous experience in it) and aircraft gets upside down killing the pilot (same thing you get in DCS) so they just bring another plane and he had to solo after a fellow just died in front of his eyes... So of course flying a high powered fighter without previous experience lead to accidents, even to trained people.

 

 

Here in DCS we have a mix of facts. First you don't know how a real tail dragger behaves because any simulator before modelled it like DCS. A tail dragger is tough, of course it is, but furthermore you are trying to "solo" for the first time in a really close to RL thing using a high powered aircraft... If you do that in RL also 95% of people would get killed themselves. And then if you hadn't enough there is the lack of feeling the seat of your pants so learning the subtle visual clues to fly the thing is far from easy. We are doing the hard way with DCS mate, don't get killed quite a few times would be a miracle if you haven't any kind of previous experience. When you learn to fly one of these aircraft the rest of them becomes quite easier to master so you have the experience... like RL :thumbup:.

 

 

And those claiming ground tail dragger behaviour in DCS being "wrong", i can say they hadn't try the real thing at all, because IMHO it's the only simulator out there modelling it any close (really close for me) to the real thing behaviour.

 

S!

Edited April 8, 2015 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Diplocaulus]

Likewise I've heard real helicopter pilots claim that flying real helicopters is easier than flying realistic helicopter sims.

[Deezle]

Best advice I can give is watch the turn indicator, it will give you immediate feedback on how to correct your course during takeoff.

[DieHard]

I am so curious how new German pilots did their training. I consider myself to be a not so dumb guy, I've read the manual, I've done the training, and watched Youtube videos. I crashed about ten times before taking off successfully and have landed about 1 out of 5 times lol. I'm great in a Cessna but this thing is so different!

 

I know that's no substitute for official training but it's hard to imagine not crashing this thing at least once :megalol: Does anyone have any insight on how the Luftwaffe prepared their pilots??

 

I saw a photo once, how the German pilots were trained using home built gliders as trainers during the 1920's. These gliders were launched from a mountain ridge. The glider was very simple, no cockpit, open air design with a simple seat over a carved 2x8 keel. That wooden keel was the landing gear. It had no wheels. The wings were overhead like a Cessna trainer. This home built glider looked like a how-to project in the old "Popular Mechanics" magazine.

 

After the end of WWI, Europe mandated that Germany would not produce weapons. Germany worked around that restriction.

 

For me, the DCS Fw-190 was the hardest to learn to takeoff and land, but I do good currently. I apply full throttle on take off. I use the rudder pedals both left and right, but mostly right. Stick is in my lap for up elevator. Stick forward a hair. Up on two wheels still dancing with the rudder pedals and stick, and up she goes.

 

Landing I come in slow, stick in my lap, 3-point landing. I roll out quite aways before applying brakes. You just have to practice a lot. I could not land this thing at all in the beta. I do a lot better, now. Landing the Bf-109 in its beta is what taught me how to land the 190 better.

Edited April 9, 2015 by DieHard

[BitMaster]

One of my dad's pals was one of those "get in the glider and then get to war" boys. They did not get much if any training with real AC at all, for sure not in the specific AC they were told to use after those 1 week of becoming a pilot in 7x24 non-stop teaching.

 

Many of those 16-20 year old boys died on their first sortie, for many reasons.

 

I spend many times with this friend of my dad when I was a Teenager and we flew everywhere around here, did some basic 3d and stuff, what a blast when I was 14.

 

He died many years ago and he never spoke about war in my presence apart from his flying.

 

My personal opinion about Sim vs RL vs R/C, anything is harder but RL.

You miss feedback, simply spoken, the only reference given is optical and that come with a DELAY.

 

I couldnt ride a bike in a Sim they way I do it in RL, from BMX to Freestyle to big fat Harley, there is no tactile feedback and that is EVERYTHING riding any bike consists of.

 

I have younger friends, usually sons of my friends, that drive car by now.

 

OWWW MAN !!! they grew up with Playstation and PC, GTA1-5 and Dirt1-3, they beat me in the sim but in RL, they cant even drive through a bend without correcting permanently on the steering wheel..HAHA !! That much to how much it helps.

 

Bit

Edited April 9, 2015 by BitMaster

[[DBS]TH0R]

The Sim simulates the ground behavior really bad!

 

On the contrary, I find DCS ground handling leaps and bounds above anything else available. Perhaps I am spoiled with my gear.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

On the contrary, I find DCS ground handling leaps and bounds above anything else available. Perhaps I am spoiled with my gear.

 

It's indeed the best sim I know in terms of ground and most of the inflight physics as well.

[NineLine]

I am so curious how new German pilots did their training. I consider myself to be a not so dumb guy, I've read the manual, I've done the training, and watched Youtube videos. I crashed about ten times before taking off successfully and have landed about 1 out of 5 times lol. I'm great in a Cessna but this thing is so different!

 

I know that's no substitute for official training but it's hard to imagine not crashing this thing at least once :megalol: Does anyone have any insight on how the Luftwaffe prepared their pilots??

 

Well there is lots missing from our experience that pilots might or did have back then, things like training in lesser aircraft, to the fact that they had a better feel for their aircraft as their butt was actually in the seat, they could probably feel things better than we can in the sim.

 

As for mastering it in the sim... practice practice practice... watch vids of successful landings and take offs, etc...

[Nooch]

they had a better feel for their aircraft as their butt was actually in the seat, they could probably feel things better than we can in the sim.

 

Good point. This is what I noticed not long ago when I had the chance to drive a sportscar on a track in real life. It felt different than in a simulation, but it didn't really feel much harder because I had much more feedback. The sense of speed, the fact you can feel vibrations, movements, etc, it definitely helps.

[WildBillKelsoe]

just hire someone to mechanize you a Boeing level multi-million dollar simulator... only you'll need to call them every now and then when newsletter or Wagdates hit you.

[NineLine]

Good point. This is what I noticed not long ago when I had the chance to drive a sportscar on a track in real life. It felt different than in a simulation, but it didn't really feel much harder because I had much more feedback. The sense of speed, the fact you can feel vibrations, movements, etc, it definitely helps.

 

I would think the sense of self preservation is important to flight/landing/take-off... I guess to simulate this have a buddy/wife stand by ready to punch you in the nether regions if you do something that gets you killed in the sim :)