C-101CC September release?

[vicx]

Some people get it.

 

There are easier ways to make money. Keep that in mind before you make someones job feel way too much like a job they don't want to do anymore.

 

If you actually like DCS, a certain amount of self-interest should have you giving as much consideration to it's long-term outlook as your own short-term disappointment.

[Pizzicato]

Keep that in mind before you make someones job feel way too much like a job they don't want to do anymore.

 

Who's making anyone feel like they don't want to do their job any more? I know there was some grief over at the VEAO sub-forum, but I don't really know what it was about.

 

I haven't seen any posts on AvioDev forum that feel out of order, though. What have I missed?

[Vivoune]

The simple moral of the lesson here is this...

 

If you don't like the delays, stay away from beta purchases. You don't need to tie up your vast fortunes in modules if you're not happy. But if you choose to go down that route, take it from me, you'll wait, and eventually you'll get what you paid for.

 

And, if you walk into a pre-sale not expecting delays, then good bl@@dy luck to you, your naivety speaks volumes!!!

 

If you just comment out of a need to patronize and being ironic to people you won't be taken seriously. You insist on missing the point even though several people are gently exposing their position to you in a respectful and concise manner.

 

We all expect delays and are well aware it's inherent to software developments as a lot of us are even software engineers, the issue here is that ever since the module got sold where we should have seen progress we've been handled excuses.

 

Let me understand your way of seeing things:

-People are complaining out of worry about the state of a module development that has been at a stall for months,

-You tell these people they should instead be happy, grateful, supportive and that everything is fine

-Dev answer the issue with a status update about how they're as frustrated and disappointed with the development problems as we are and as a result took actions to get things moving again

-The lesson you get out of this is that people should expect delays and no one should buy into an early module if they aren't happy (whatever that means).

 

Well, maybe my lesson learning skill is at fault but what I learnt from this is that if enough people express reasonable concerns then the company responsible for the project might take actions to resolve it sooner rather than later.

 

Also, on the subject of getting paid, just remember that both Aviodev, and several other developers are working from their homes AFTER they complete their day's work. They develop these modules for a lot of other reasons than simply commercial gain. THAT's why we all need to cut them a little slack, and understand when they experience delays and other issues. It has happened more often that not that unexpected hurdles are encountered, and even the best will in the world cannot cope with that.

 

Yet again you missed the point. The fact that they're working from their home and part time is completely irrelevant, they could work once every three days from a national park it'd be the same, how they do it is up to them, I'm just interested in the results. They charged the exact same price I paid for the modules made by full-time veteran developers. As such I have the same expectations, no where in the product page when I bought it was it mentioned "You buy this module knowing that you have to cut us some slack because we work from our home on our free time".

 

In my opinion they are professionals, and if the portion of the module we've had our hands on thus far are anything to go by then I think it's safe to say they really are professionals. I choose to treat them as such. To each his own.

 

Finally, what makes you imagine for a moment you are in a majority here at all? The majority don't post anything at all. Just because you make a lot of noise doesn't make you either the majority, or correct in what you suggest.

 

I don't think anyone here that felt the need to express some concerns had at any time the pretension to talk in place of the majority. You'd do well to stay away from such internet shortcuts about vocal minorities and your habit of categorizing the constructive remarks from those whom vision differs from yours as "noise". Another point you missed, it has nothing to do with being correct, I'd humbly suggest you detach your rhetoric from your manichaeism in order to reach a more constructive debate. For someone who would have us less vociferous and more supportive towards the devs you seem to do quite a bit of condemning. Embody the lesson you are trying to teach.

 

Don't pay, and then you'll be perfectly content I am sure! Except of course I bet the majority of you have pre-purchased other stuff despite what you have all experienced both here, and in the past with other developers. I'm not soft on anyone, just realistic, and I am sorry to say, you all need to just get real. Some of you seem to have very short memories if you have followed DCS World since the beginning.

 

I'll just ignore your condescending comments as it brings nothing to the conversation and believe or not, I don't want to disrespect you in any way. I'll just say that you are Irony incarnated considering you've been hassling us all this time to go soft on devs while we just were being realistic yet here you are not being soft on us, just realistic.

 

Personally I'm just happy the devs are as concerned as we are and that they've taken actions to get things moving again, that's all I wanted to hear.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Vivoune

[NeilWillis]

I'm terribly sorry Vivoune, but it isn't me that's missing the point. The point is, as has been very graphically illustrated in the VEAO announcement that has just been released. Even with the very best will in the world, the nature of the beast is that no one can predict, or allow for the unexpected issues that arise despite their best efforts. That is not mentioning the ups and downs of personnel resources - which have been partly exacerbated by comments and criticism from the forum - some, but by no means all of them utterly over the top.

 

How is the fact that the developers are working in a cottage industry irrelevant when it indicates that they will always struggle as a result? They don't have unlimited personnel to deal with issues, they don't have 1000s of hours to throw at problems and solve them quickly, and they don't have the insight into some of the software structures and procedures used by ED that they rely on to implement their projects.

 

Of course I am irony incarnate! But how else would you like me to react? You may feel I am over reacting to comments, which in and of themselves are relatively polite and harmless. The issue mainly stems from the fact that I read all of them, and it becomes - after the first 3 years - like Chinese water torture. A single drop of water is nothing, but after the 50th such complaint, some of which have merit, but most of the others which don't, there comes a time when enough is simply enough. I react, and I do so using irony in order to refrain from being outright offensive. Enough said?

 

Of course the devs are concerned. They ARE highly motivated, and professional in their approach to their work. They are talented, resourceful teams too, or they'd not be getting DCS licences to work on this stuff.

 

The issue is, was, and always will be one of time scales. No announcement for a couple of months, and no perceived progress simply isn't the same as no progress. Complain long enough and hard enough, and you'll get a reaction seems to be the way the forum thinks in general. Does that mean it is the right approach?

 

I am certainly not missing the point, I see where you are coming from, and I do sympathise with the need to be reassured. I also know for a fact that we will be told by the devs when the status quo of these projects change. Do you seriously think that they don't remember to keep us updated unless someone here reminds them?

 

I have at no point intimated that anyone should naively sit back and accept poor service or disappointment, I just feel I have a more realistic view than some on what constitutes a fair lead time for the arrival of these modules. If after seeing the stalled, delayed arrival of ALL early announced modules, you imagine they can pop them like peas from a pod, then think again.

 

Why do you suppose we now get very little pre-knowledge of forthcoming releases from the more mature software houses? When was the last time - even among the highly commercial organisations outside the flight sim genre, that a software title was released early and without any bugs?

 

If the devs learn anything on this forum, it is to keep information back, and never attempt to say anything until the product is so complete, that all eventualities are covered before any kind of announcement can be made. To me, that situation is a terrible one to accept, but the reality of it is obvious to a blind man.

 

The salient points as I see them are...

 

1. Delays and hurdles are inevitable.

2. Devs tend to only want to give good news - and who can blame them!

3. The more people complain about delays, the less likely we are to know in advance about future projects.

4. This debate has been running as long as I have been frequenting this forum, and it never changes, no matter how polite or gently the point is made.

5. Devs are just as determined as us to get their products completed as soon as humanly possible.

6. The more we complain, the less we will know.

7. Modules as complex and in depth as we like them here can, and do sometimes take years to develop, but delays are no indication of a lack of commitment on the part of those developing them.

 

You consider them reasonable, and taken on individual merits, that cannot be denied. The issue isn't the right, or need to complain, or the way they're worded, just that the expectations held here need to be re-assessed, and the time and space needed to bring projects to fruition needs to be appreciated. Frankly, right now, they're hopelessly optimistic, and history shows that the juggernaut that is DCS World isn't somewhere to get quick fixes.

 

Just wait, patiently, and as soon as the modules have reached a stage where the devs can release them, they will. No amount of enquiry, or criticism has any effect on lead times, and no news isn't bad news. You may elicit a response, but does that shorten the wait?

 

Just learn to trust the devs to do what they promised, that's all.

[Vivoune]

How is the fact that the developers are working in a cottage industry irrelevant [...]? They don't have unlimited personnel to deal with issues, they don't have 1000s of hours to throw at problems and solve them quickly, and they don't have the insight into some of the software structures and procedures used by ED that they rely on to implement their projects.

I'm a very simple person, my expectations are directly linked to the price I paid for the product, I think that's a fairly common concept.

 

 

The issue mainly stems from the fact that I read all of them, and it becomes - after the first 3 years - like Chinese water torture. [..] there comes a time when enough is simply enough. I react, and I do so using irony in order to refrain from being outright offensive. Enough said?

If you realized you are being too sensitive about it maybe it's not the best idea to keep on posting over and over saying the same things again and again. We all heard what you had to say, you heard what I and others felt the need to express too. There's no need to talk about it for tens of paragraphs. We're not trying to change anyone's minds, nor will you. The one thing that everyone should agree on is that it's highly subjective.

 

I just feel I have a more realistic view than some on what constitutes a fair lead time for the arrival of these modules.

That's the real problem here. If there's anything at all that you should learn from this thread this is it. It's all very subjective, you have to learn to agree to disagree. :)

 

The issue is, was, and always will be one of time scales. No announcement for a couple of months, and no perceived progress simply isn't the same as no progress. Complain long enough and hard enough, and you'll get a reaction seems to be the way the forum thinks in general. Does that mean it is the right approach?

It certainly isn't. Once more you fall into internet shortcuts and as a result you're telling us what is a good or a bad behavior when it comes to criticism while I hardly see anything in this thread that called for such a common sense lesson. I agree with you, I think it's safe to assume everyone in this thread shares your opinion too.

 

I think most of us just expressed our concerns a couple of times and that was it. Then you showed up and had us talked about it over and over. The irony.

 

 

If after seeing the stalled, delayed arrival of ALL early announced modules, you imagine they can pop them like peas from a pod, then think again. [...]

When was the last time - even among the highly commercial organisations outside the flight sim genre, that a software title was released early and without any bugs?

You keep on using shortcuts, I don't know why you insist on seeing some of us as impatient uneducated brats. I agree with you, everyone here agrees with you on these things, there's no one here for you to teach theses things to. All of your comments are filled with common sense that you insist on telling us about, I'm glad you understand these things, I don't know if you're a white knight of sorts, but there's no evil around here. You're preaching the choir.

 

 

To me, that situation is a terrible one to accept, but the reality of it is obvious to a blind man.

We're not blind, we understand and respect your point of view, we simply disagree with it. Why can't you understand and respect ours?

 

the expectations held here need to be re-assessed, and the time and space needed to bring projects to fruition needs to be appreciated.

Did you read the part where the devs apologized for the great delay on the whole project and that the project has been suffering delays after delays for months on end due to internal problems?

 

That's abnormal development, that raised concerns, the devs themselves agreed these issues thus far means they didn't meet ours and their own expectations. In my humble opinion our expectations were reasonable.

 

I won't summarize and quote the devs and the updates we've had on the C-101 for the past 8 months in order to prove that point, because I think Aviodev have now resolved the big problems they were having and moved on, so are we.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Vivoune

[rajdary]

@ NeilWillis, i wanted to reply but you have already replied 95% of what i was thinking. I couldnt agree less with your explanation. i just wanted to add one more thing.

 

@ Vivoune, i can understand your point of view but dont agree for the simple fact that in the case of C101 Aviojet, as in the case of VEAO Hawk, Leatherneck Mig 21 and soon Razbam Mirage, its their first module, and just because of that alone IMHO i think we should give them way more understanding, be more patient and try to construct a possitive atmosphere and in my case obviously buy the first module of each and everyone of them to try to support their work financially.

In the other hand after that, for the second module of any of them, we then SHOULD expect a much BETTER and FINISHED PRODUCT with the exception of modules like the Eurofighter and F14 which are actually much more complicated than Hawk or C101 or any ww2 fighters.

So in the end its a matter of supporting them in their first module, i think all of us should support all 3rd parties in their first module. After that they shouldnt have much excuse for not having modules in their best state also keeping in account that there is going to be much more competence and future clients will have high expectations.

lets make it possitive at the begining:thumbup:

[Vivoune]

I agree with you rajdary, being worried doesn't mean spreading negativity everywhere in order to try and hurt the devs and their project out of frustration. Thankfully that didn't happen here.

 

I want to support this module, I want to support the devs along the way, at his point of developement though I just needed to express, like some others, my concerns. That's it really. We all just want the same thing, a great module to fly with. :thumbup:

[NeilWillis]

:censored:

[Hook47]

I'm terribly sorry Vivoune, but it isn't me that's missing the point. The point is, as has been very graphically illustrated in the VEAO announcement that has just been released. Even with the very best will in the world, the nature of the beast is that no one can predict, or allow for the unexpected issues that arise despite their best efforts. That is not mentioning the ups and downs of personnel resources - which have been partly exacerbated by comments and criticism from the forum - some, but by no means all of them utterly over the top.

 

How is the fact that the developers are working in a cottage industry irrelevant when it indicates that they will always struggle as a result? They don't have unlimited personnel to deal with issues, they don't have 1000s of hours to throw at problems and solve them quickly, and they don't have the insight into some of the software structures and procedures used by ED that they rely on to implement their projects.

 

Of course I am irony incarnate! But how else would you like me to react? You may feel I am over reacting to comments, which in and of themselves are relatively polite and harmless. The issue mainly stems from the fact that I read all of them, and it becomes - after the first 3 years - like Chinese water torture. A single drop of water is nothing, but after the 50th such complaint, some of which have merit, but most of the others which don't, there comes a time when enough is simply enough. I react, and I do so using irony in order to refrain from being outright offensive. Enough said?

 

Of course the devs are concerned. They ARE highly motivated, and professional in their approach to their work. They are talented, resourceful teams too, or they'd not be getting DCS licences to work on this stuff.

 

The issue is, was, and always will be one of time scales. No announcement for a couple of months, and no perceived progress simply isn't the same as no progress. Complain long enough and hard enough, and you'll get a reaction seems to be the way the forum thinks in general. Does that mean it is the right approach?

 

I am certainly not missing the point, I see where you are coming from, and I do sympathise with the need to be reassured. I also know for a fact that we will be told by the devs when the status quo of these projects change. Do you seriously think that they don't remember to keep us updated unless someone here reminds them?

 

I have at no point intimated that anyone should naively sit back and accept poor service or disappointment, I just feel I have a more realistic view than some on what constitutes a fair lead time for the arrival of these modules. If after seeing the stalled, delayed arrival of ALL early announced modules, you imagine they can pop them like peas from a pod, then think again.

 

Why do you suppose we now get very little pre-knowledge of forthcoming releases from the more mature software houses? When was the last time - even among the highly commercial organisations outside the flight sim genre, that a software title was released early and without any bugs?

 

If the devs learn anything on this forum, it is to keep information back, and never attempt to say anything until the product is so complete, that all eventualities are covered before any kind of announcement can be made. To me, that situation is a terrible one to accept, but the reality of it is obvious to a blind man.

 

The salient points as I see them are...

 

1. Delays and hurdles are inevitable.

2. Devs tend to only want to give good news - and who can blame them!

3. The more people complain about delays, the less likely we are to know in advance about future projects.

4. This debate has been running as long as I have been frequenting this forum, and it never changes, no matter how polite or gently the point is made.

5. Devs are just as determined as us to get their products completed as soon as humanly possible.

6. The more we complain, the less we will know.

7. Modules as complex and in depth as we like them here can, and do sometimes take years to develop, but delays are no indication of a lack of commitment on the part of those developing them.

 

You consider them reasonable, and taken on individual merits, that cannot be denied. The issue isn't the right, or need to complain, or the way they're worded, just that the expectations held here need to be re-assessed, and the time and space needed to bring projects to fruition needs to be appreciated. Frankly, right now, they're hopelessly optimistic, and history shows that the juggernaut that is DCS World isn't somewhere to get quick fixes.

 

Just wait, patiently, and as soon as the modules have reached a stage where the devs can release them, they will. No amount of enquiry, or criticism has any effect on lead times, and no news isn't bad news. You may elicit a response, but does that shorten the wait?

 

Just learn to trust the devs to do what they promised, that's all.

 

One MAJOR distinction between the VEAO and Aviodev update- I know whats going on with VEAO and even have rough time frames... After reading the Aviodev update I still feel in the dark and concerned.

 

Also I don't see the reason for you to get so up in arms, Niel! This has been a very civil discussion and expression of concern.

[JuanOscar]

We understand perfectly that you feeling in the dark and concerned.

 

But definitely it's not how we feel. Revert the current situation it's not do it in one night. We are really confident and hopefully you'll start to see new things on next weeks.

 

Now we have to accept the negative comments, as we are responsible of DCS:C-101, and with works we expect to change that. :)

[zaelu]

Fair enough Oscar.

If you manage to restart and deliver what was promised and develop even more, I think all the bad experience so far will be forgotten in one year.

[skouras]

personally i dont have any problem with Devs...just take your time guys and do your magic as im pretty sure you gonna deliver an amazing module at the end;)

[grunf]

We understand perfectly that you feeling in the dark and concerned.

 

But definitely it's not how we feel. Revert the current situation it's not do it in one night. We are really confident and hopefully you'll start to see new things on next weeks.

 

Now we have to accept the negative comments, as we are responsible of DCS:C-101, and with works we expect to change that. :)

Glad to see you back on track. :thumbup:

[Vivoune]

We understand perfectly that you feeling in the dark and concerned.

 

But definitely it's not how we feel. Revert the current situation it's not do it in one night. We are really confident and hopefully you'll start to see new things on next weeks.

 

Now we have to accept the negative comments, as we are responsible of DCS:C-101, and with works we expect to change that. :)

 

Personally it wasn't the lack of communication that had me worried, only the lack of progress coupled with the consecutive excuse letters this year that led me to beleive the project was at a complete stall for so long. I don't mind waiting a while if I know a project is being actively developped.

 

But I understand now as you made it clear you were struggling with internal issues. So that explains it, knowing that you have now resolved whatever was blocking you I feel releived and look forward to see the project getting developped further. Take all the time you need to get it right and thank you for allievating our concerns. :thumbup:

[FishDoctor]

personally i dont have any problem with Devs...just take your time guys and do your magic as im pretty sure you gonna deliver an amazing module at the end;)

 

sign!

[Hook47]

We understand perfectly that you feeling in the dark and concerned.

 

But definitely it's not how we feel. Revert the current situation it's not do it in one night. We are really confident and hopefully you'll start to see new things on next weeks.

 

Now we have to accept the negative comments, as we are responsible of DCS:C-101, and with works we expect to change that. :)

 

Restart? Revert? Weeks? I am not understanding the nature of this issue, and the wording makes me feel like prettymuch square one on the C-101CC may be the case. Another thing is with a proposed September release being brought up months ago I wish we had gotten a heads up sooner. Again, details of some sort would put minds to ease but either way we are rooting for you to come through.

[S-GERAT]

We understand perfectly that you feeling in the dark and concerned.

 

But definitely it's not how we feel. Revert the current situation it's not do it in one night. We are really confident and hopefully you'll start to see new things on next weeks.

 

Now we have to accept the negative comments, as we are responsible of DCS:C-101, and with works we expect to change that. :)

 

Hi JuanOscar,

 

In my point of view, as long as you put here regular updates about your progress there is no problem to wait. And I find more needed the new flight model than the CC update, because is very hard to fly the C-101 with the sfm having all the other modules with the advanced flight models.

 

And I like to make you a question about the rear cockpit and multi seat. VEAO has said that due the way of implementing the multiseat and rear cockpit by ED they can't add that capability to the Hawk without redoing big part of the systems. Hope you don't have the same problem.. these trainers without such capability lose most of their charm.

 

Good luck with your project :thumbup:

[lxvanwyk]

Developer Feedback and Information to the community is a privilege, not a right.....especially in light of the fact that we ALL could (should) have waited for the final release (without a promulgated date)......but we were "lucky"to get the preview (SFM) and to have the privilege, at that, to familiarise ourselves with the module. Contractors or developers very rarely meet deadlines due to a vast amount of factors, which can never be foreseen or planned for especially with regards to a macro schedule. Some fat is usually built into a macro schedule but .....murphy is a bastard and usually present in all stages of development. Therefore developers need to keep the customer happy and inticed without making promises they cant keep....Very difficult. Being in the military (AIR FORCE) project environment myself, I can account to this practice by developers. These types of development is not as straight forward as any one would think. The difference here is that the DCS (ED & 3d Party) developers are not obliged under contracts (with us , the customers) to schedules and specs. So......I consider the developers to be very forthcoming and honest (not particularly fast in some uninformed peoples' view) and that is something to honor respect and appreciate.

My 5 cents (from professional experience).

Greetings and patience to all of you.

[Ce_Zeta]

We understand perfectly that you feeling in the dark and concerned.

 

But definitely it's not how we feel. Revert the current situation it's not do it in one night. We are really confident and hopefully you'll start to see new things on next weeks.

 

Now we have to accept the negative comments, as we are responsible of DCS:C-101, and with works we expect to change that. :)

Thank you very much for the info JO and for respect the freedom of speech. This subforum is a virtual West Berlin. :thumbup:

 

It's very sad to see how many problems have DCSW as a hardcore sim platform.

 

Good Luck!

[Buzzles]

It may not have been the EFM, but the updates in the 1.5 Open Beta are very welcome.

[Aginor]

Nice changelog. :)

Although I admit I had hoped for more working systems or the EFM. Well, we can't have it all at once.

[kontiuka]

Ya, some cool things and nice bug fixes. Although some of the things listed are already there in the open beta for 1.2.16 like the GPU being available in windy conditions and the knee board.

 

I like the fact that there will be a pilot model.

[zaelu]

Developer Feedback and Information to the community is a privilege, not a right........

 

 

Suppose you go to the fresh market and ask a tomato seller you know and bought from before:

 

"Hey John, how are tomatoes growing this year? All good?"

 

and he answers

 

"Developer Feedback and Information to the community is a privilege, not a right..."

 

How many tomatoes would you still buy from him?

 

Remember. Is a two side balance. You have the money not just the wish to blindly spend. The seller should know that also. Not telling anyone about how your tomatoes are coming could be a very nice surprise when you finally arrive at the market with them and you could get your wished moment of glory as a "grower/developer" but your sales still could suffer because of lack of advertising... sort of speak.

 

The problem with some agriculturists these days is that they don't tell/show anything about their tomatoes and also they have nothing in reality to show... that's why they look so frustrated in customer relations.

 

In fact. Is better to assume that some vegetable grower has absolutely nothing until he shows something. Is the skeptic perspective. You can add then a bit of "maybe they have something" depending of the history of that vegetable grower. If he has no history... don't move from first perspective until he builds one.

 

Simple.

[lxvanwyk]

Suppose you go to the fresh market and ask a tomato seller you know and bought from before:

 

...........Simple.

 

True but totally different environments.....development and growing crops.......I suppose it all depends on individual views of business practices as well. I dont agree with you necessarily but appreciate your point of view....good point.

[kontiuka]

A few new items to the change log ...

 

- Several cockpit textures issues fixed

- Parking brake implemented

- Startup training mission with English voice overs included

 

Been looking forward to the English start-up mission. And a working parking brake? Cool.