Improved Spotting

[Haukka81]

Improved Spotting

 

Im happy with this new impostor system, in MY SYSTEM at 2560x1440 rez it finally gives me ability to spot planes somehow close to my real life experiences. WITHOUT using zoom and with 80 degeers FOV (still bit tunel vision vs real life)

 

It needes still tweaking , because now if i use zoom it gets weird and makes spotting too easy.

Here i agree with SharpeXB, it is too easy when used with zoom or narov fov.

 

Maybe impostors should be drawn only at resonable ranges so even i zoom those wont be drawn too early / far.

 

Zoom should be limited somehow too, i dont have hubble telescope inside plane in real life :D

 

 

 

Needes tuning but its good thing to start.

 

 

 

 

-Haukka81

Finland Airforce (VR)

Edited October 8, 2015 by Haukka81

[Talisman_VR]

I've done it in a number of sims, and its not easy, but then I am not sure its supposed to be easy, and it depends on the entire group working together, that in itself can be tough to find.

 

Yes, can be tough. Especially say, spilt the human group your are leading into 2 sections, one up or down sun as required, with an altitude separation. Then RV at a set time with another human squad of fighter bombers some 10 to 15 mins flying time away, then find each other, and set course for target. Do this and lead and navigate without external view, aircraft labels, without unrealistic map showing your position as well as friendlies and enemy, without unrealistic knee pad showing your position on map. Then see how many times out of 10 this can be successfully done with the limited view of pre 1.5 patch. As I say, can't judge visibility in 1.5 as I have not tried it. Don't know if it is good or even the best solution, but at least DCS are trying to address the less than real world visibility issue.

 

P.S. It's not just about flying in formation on a jolly outing around the local airfield doing what you like when you like with no impact on the successes of a mission outcome.

Edited October 8, 2015 by 56RAF_Talisman

[Wolf Rider]

I often wonder how many people who post about this have tried to effectively lead or take part in a squad of, say 6 or more, WWII fighters taking off in good weather and visibility in DCS and flying together for an air-to-air mission and remaining in visual contact with each other to maintain tactical battle formation integrity?

To have numerous set of eyes working for you and fly together as an effective force in the combat area requires being able to fly together in visual contact as a large force in the first place. DCS was not up to this prior to patch 1.5. I have not tried 1.5 yet, but clearly something needed to be done, so I am glad DCS has tried to solve the visibility issues that are there.

 

 

Bomber squadrons could take an hour to Form Up - 'The Wild Blue' Stephen E. Ambrose.

 

and the sim was up to it

 

 

This is really what it comes down to. The experience of the user is largely dependent on both their hardware and their real life visual acuity. I think variations in these things is causing most of the disagreements here.

and also a complete misunderstanding of "peripheral vision" and FoV expectations

Edited October 8, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[kripzoo]

 

This is how "ENLARGED"- option shows in my monitor. 24" @ 1920x1200.

MiG-29 Head on at about 10km distance, using full "zoom".

 

I think it could be better, but hey its WIP.:pilotfly:

[Wolf Rider]

what is you FoV setting?

[kripzoo]

My field of view is what you get using full zoom at 1920x1200 in 24inch monitor. Well i dont know the exact value

Edited October 8, 2015 by kripzoo

[Wolf Rider]

have you modified your normal FoV from the default setting?

[kripzoo]

No, complete stock 1.5 open beta install.

I really don't see much different with this new spotting ability.

Sometimes the plane disappears for a moment even at 800meter distance, if "zooming out" a little , like it did in 1.2.6

Edited October 8, 2015 by kripzoo

[Wolf Rider]

Thanks... that's the sort of information which could be needed

[gavagai]

I meant that I'm quite confident that it's much more difficult to be a fighter pilot in real life than in a game. The reason we all suck at tactics and flying formation and such isn't just because we're on PC screens, we're all a bunch of gamer amateurs, or most of us are anyways. :pilotfly:

 

I have the fortunate opportunity to fly coop and 1v1 with a real F-16 pilot in Falcon BMS. His formation flying isn't better than a typical sim pilot. The lack of depth perception and the absence of the feeling of motion make it very tricky.

[Pman]

Just a quick note on formation flying, I fly Right wing for the Virtual Horsemen (if you havent seen our videos look here :

)

 

We have also had long conversations with the Real Bremont Horsemen and they have tried formation in DCS and they have said to us that the Sim is harder then real life in their opinion (also abit of mine as well being a real life pilot). Dan Friedkin has said to us several times, as have the others, that what we do is harder then what they do due to the lack of feel and depth perception.

 

Pman

[Wolf Rider]

yes, certain situations are very much harder in a sim than in real life... its a given

[SharpeXB]

Zoom should be limited somehow too, i dont have hubble telescope inside plane in real life :D

The zoom view is the only way to see and identify distant objects realistically in a flight sim.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2504841&postcount=75

 

The MV setting only affects objects smaller than 3 or 5 pixels so it's not going to help ID anything.

 

I should really try it out for myself but I'm not up to installing the Beta and my hardware isn't typical so my observations wouldn't be either.

[BRAVO_16]

I noticed a definite improvement in spotting other aircraft. Now I can modify my labels accordingly.

[blkspade]

At least conventions exist to fix the depth perception issue.

[Talisman_VR]

The zoom view is the only way to see and identify distant objects realistically in a flight sim.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2504841&postcount=75

 

The MV setting only affects objects smaller than 3 or 5 pixels so it's not going to help ID anything.

 

I should really try it out for myself but I'm not up to installing the Beta and my hardware isn't typical so my observations wouldn't be either.

 

If DCS pilots are expected to rely on the zoom view zoomed to maximum to get something more akin to real life air-to-air vision (please note that I am not sure whether that is the case or not) then I think that is a very tall ask and offers a very unnatural and less than intuitive, not to mention darn difficult way to fly, especially in combat WWII style.

 

As for spotting ground targets, I suggest that in real life it is even harder than spotting air-to-air in some cases, apart from when standing out against a stark contrasting back ground. I have read that in WWII the allied armies would fire coloured smoke flares to highlight targets for air force close support units to attack. Otherwise it would have been near impossible to spot the enemy or distinguish between sides.

 

The bottom line for me, as a WWII enthusiast and someone that dislikes aircraft icons/labels (including on maps and knee boards) , is that if a DCS air-to-air object is not visible on the screen then it can't possibly be spotted by me. If the DCS environment is placing such an object close enough to me that in real life I would normally have a chance to spot it, but it is invisible on the PC screen, then there is an issue. Of course, I understand that we need to take account of what is reasonably practicable and achievable in terms of available PC technology and that reality cannot be achieved. Finally, I can't fly properly or effectively if I need to have zoom view on maximum to see objects I would normally be expected to see without the feeling of viewing life constricted by looking through an empty toilet roll.

 

Looking through an empty bog roll is an NVG thing, LOL, but that's NVG's for you and represents real life NVG problems.

 

Happy landings all,

 

Talisman

[SharpeXB]

Does anyone notice better spotting without MV turned on?

[SharpeXB]

If DCS pilots are expected to rely on the zoom view zoomed to maximum to get something more akin to real life air-to-air vision (please note that I am not sure whether that is the case or not) then I think that is a very tall ask and offers a very unnatural and less than intuitive, not to mention darn difficult way to fly, especially in combat WWII style.

The zoom view is the only tool you can use on any PC flight sim until we get fantastically large and high res monitors or VR headsets. 4K isn't even sharp enough to alleviate the need for using the zoom although it helps a bit. The only solution you have with today's hardware is to practice using it until it becomes intuitive or use icons. Put the zoom on an axis where you can zoom in and out quickly and it becomes second nature.

[blkspade]

I've actually mapped zoom to Track-IR Z, so the very act of moving closer to my screen will cause it to zoom.

[Cripple]

You must spot planes to dogfight. At any distance.

 

Which is the crux of the issue imho. Keeping track of one single aircraft in a turning fight is (relatively) easy. Finding the damned thing again if you mess it up is not.

 

I'm running DCS 1.2 on pretty low-spec equipment at the mo. I need to run with the graphics set to low just to get 25+ fps, and I can even lose the Amazing Vanishing Antanov in the P-51 training mission! :-( I don't want to put labels on though, so anything that can assist with visibility would be a bonus.

 

In this discussion, I think we need to be mindful that one cannot assume that anyone playing DCS will (immediately) want invest in top-line hardware. The flight-sim player-base is small enough as it is, without potentially deterring the more casual player by demanding either a) having a sub-par gaming experience, or b) coughing up for a new pc. Enhanced graphics and fps should be "whistles-and-bells" for the particularly keen hobbyist, rather than seen as flight (or fight) essentials. Bit like HOTAS and rudder pedals...

[SharpeXB]

I've actually mapped zoom to Track-IR Z, so the very act of moving closer to my screen will cause it to zoom.

Mine is mapped to my rudder toe brake. It's more useful than having R and L brakes axis, I use hotas buttons for those on the WWII planes and the modern nose wheel jets work fine with one brake. It keeps my hands free.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I haven't tried it yet but I sure hope they don't take it away. The previous spotting system was rubbish and many times the contrast of background did not help, forcing an icing on maps to check that blob or high altitude fighting which killed engines.

[Talisman_VR]

I've actually mapped zoom to Track-IR Z, so the very act of moving closer to my screen will cause it to zoom.

 

How do you do that blkspade?

[theGozr]

With the imminent venue of VR this is a most important subject and priority for the realism of the DCS sim, Lockon/DCS were always a pain to spot and find distant aircraft unlike in real life. Using the zoom to spot things is no preferred seriously and real bad in VR, we do not zoom-in period. I understand that fighting with missile 100's miles away is a thing in DCS or at list in the Lockon arena but now with WW2 aircraft and trainers and a mix era choices i think it's a big problem and I hope it will be fix/modified for the best use on VFR (Visual Flight Rating)

 

IL2/RoF are pretty good on that matter

[theGozr]

@56RAF_Talisman Zoom in with Track IR is bad habit.. rather keep your axis to move your head forward in the cockpit instead and map (view tab ) to have a zoom quick sight on a key.