DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[Pocket Sized]

wow, 395 pages.

 

anyway, I'm still deciding whether to purchase or wait. Can someone explain something to me? how exactly will it be used in the attack role ie. ignoring anti ship strikes, does the Viggen have a TGP or do we have to find targets with the Mk I eyeball?

 

In real life the pilots knew where the targets were before taking off.

 

The ground mapping radar will be able to see large groups of targets or buildings, but that's it

 

Don't be turned away just yet though. Some quick reading though the WIP manual and this thread will show you how unique and capable she can be ;)

[Ice_Cougar]

wow, 395 pages.

 

anyway, I'm still deciding whether to purchase or wait. Can someone explain something to me? how exactly will it be used in the attack role ie. ignoring anti ship strikes, does the Viggen have a TGP or do we have to find targets with the Mk I eyeball?

 

The Viggen IMHO isn't a hunter-killer (unless it comes to ships)...However it has a few tricks up it's...sleeve(s)? The radar has reconnoissance modes for mapping and remembering ship-movements, its radar can go into a passive mode that detects jammers, it can use its A2G radar actively to spot large vehicle formations such as encampments of vics or a convoy. However, the AJS/AJ is a strike/attack fighter. Its purpose is similar to a Panavia Tornado's or a Sepecat Jaguar's: Kill an enemy thats been found by someone else (*Cough* SF-37 recce-Viggen *Cough*). At first I thought it would be very difficult to use this in DCS multiplayer, but it can work if you have even the littlest amount of intelligence support. For instance the Viggen has a computer that on top of many other things, can produce calculations for "Time on target" planning for a waypoint. If we treat this waypoint as a sort of,"IP" point like for an A-10, F-15E or other plane designated for CAS/Strike, we could have A-10s or even JTACS spot an enemy vehicle convoy or any land target for that matter and relay GPS coordinates to the Viggen pilot(s) waiting at said IP point. From there they can formulate a plan by either remembering or checking the terrain. F-10 terrain map around the target can be used to plan a distance and heading away from the target waypoint that the Viggens can use to make a pop-up attack waypoint off of the main target waypoint after ingress (Almost exactly what Cobra did in the ARAK rocket attack video). They could even launch BK-90s from ~8km away from the target using the A2G radar to give the BK-90 an actively tracked target, or simply dropping the cluster dispenser using the INS/GPS coordinates given earlier.

 

Somewhat long-post-short the Viggen will definitely be useful and you won't have to rely on the MK-1 eyeball too much if the attack is planned right. ;)

 

P.S. The SF-37 (dedicated recce variant) and SH-37 (Attack viggen but with the capability to use a recce pod to film ships and the mostly same A2G radar but optimized to look for ships...but couldn't use some AGMs) could carry camera pods but nothing for target designation...since LGBs and many forms of precision-guided-munitions wouldn't come to complete fruition until the early 70s...they we're used in Vietnam War, but I doubt Sweden was thinking about that when making a fighter that could deliver even un-guided weapons so accurately. Remember that you'll have not only BK-90, but RB-05 (essentially a Swedish MCLOS missile similar to the American bullpup missile) and RB-75/75T (Maverick missiles)

[AdurianJ]

The Viggen IMHO isn't a hunter-killer (unless it comes to ships)...However it has a few tricks up it's...sleeve(s)? The radar has reconnoissance modes for mapping and remembering ship-movements, its radar can go into a passive mode that detects jammers, it can use its A2G radar actively to spot large vehicle formations such as encampments of vics or a convoy. However, the AJS/AJ is a strike/attack fighter. Its purpose is similar to a Panavia Tornado's or a Sepecat Jaguar's: Kill an enemy thats been found by someone else (*Cough* SF-37 recce-Viggen *Cough*). At first I thought it would be very difficult to use this in DCS multiplayer, but it can work if you have even the littlest amount of intelligence support. For instance the Viggen has a computer that on top of many other things, can produce calculations for "Time on target" planning for a waypoint. If we treat this waypoint as a sort of,"IP" point like for an A-10, F-15E or other plane designated for CAS/Strike, we could have A-10s or even JTACS spot an enemy vehicle convoy or any land target for that matter and relay GPS coordinates to the Viggen pilot(s) waiting at said IP point. From there they can formulate a plan by either remembering or checking the terrain. F-10 terrain map around the target can be used to plan a distance and heading away from the target waypoint that the Viggens can use to make a pop-up attack waypoint off of the main target waypoint after ingress (Almost exactly what Cobra did in the ARAK rocket attack video). They could even launch BK-90s from ~8km away from the target using the A2G radar to give the BK-90 an actively tracked target, or simply dropping the cluster dispenser using the INS/GPS coordinates given earlier.

 

Somewhat long-post-short the Viggen will definitely be useful and you won't have to rely on the MK-1 eyeball too much if the attack is planned right. ;)

 

P.S. The SF-37 (dedicated recce variant) and SH-37 (Attack viggen but with the capability to use a recce pod to film ships and the mostly same A2G radar but optimized to look for ships...but couldn't use some AGMs) could carry camera pods but nothing for target designation...since LGBs and many forms of precision-guided-munitions wouldn't come to complete fruition until the early 70s...they we're used in Vietnam War, but I doubt Sweden was thinking about that when making a fighter that could deliver even un-guided weapons so accurately. Remember that you'll have not only BK-90, but RB-05 (essentially a Swedish MCLOS missile similar to the American bullpup missile) and RB-75/75T (Maverick missiles)

 

Sweden was never interested in Laser Guided Bombs for national defense because the air force expected the enemy would have air superiority.

Under those conditions you can't send an aircraft to altitude to provide laser targeting.

[Ice_Cougar]

Sweden was never interested in Laser Guided Bombs for national defense because the air force expected the enemy would have air superiority.

Under those conditions you can't send an aircraft to altitude to provide laser targeting.

 

True. I should've thought of that. After-all the first conflict to use LGBs on a decent scale (Vietnam War), the U.S. did have overwhelming air-superiority...STRIL-60 really prepared for the worst didn't it..?

[RaXha]

True. I should've thought of that. After-all the first conflict to use LGBs on a decent scale (Vietnam War), the U.S. did have overwhelming air-superiority...STRIL-60 really prepared for the worst didn't it..?

 

Well, we (a country of about 8-9 million) preparared for an invasion from the soviet union, thats probably as close to the "the worst" one can imagine. :P

[Farks]

For most of the duration of the cold war the soviets didn't have any fighters with enough reach to do missions over Sweden in any meaningful capacity. At least not until the Su-27 was in widespread service, but by then the cold war was pretty much over. Someone made an analysis of what the soviet air force had available in northern Europe during the later stage of the cold war in this very thread, perhaps someone can dig it up? So the main concern for the swedish air defense was bomber, attack and transport aircraft. As I understand it, the military expected the fighter squadrons to survive as long as possible since it was decided in the 1970 air defense resolution that the air force was the main caretaker of air defense, rather than ground based AA units. Which is why the Bloodhound system was scrapped along with a few other anti-air projects.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Farks

[MBot]

Someone made an analysis of what the soviet air force had available in northern Europe during the later stage of the cold war in this very thread, perhaps someone can dig it up?

 

You might be referring to this post:

 

Let's have a closer look at the Soviet air threat to the Swedish Air Force in the time frame of the Viggen's operational service. Below is an overview of all Soviet combat aviation regiments based in the Baltic republics and Kaliningrad in the 70s and 80s. I have not included Soviet and Polish units in Poland, as these would most likely have been preoccupied with NATO.

 

(data source http://www.ww2.dk)

 

 

Some observations:

 

When looking at Soviet air power, it is important to differentiate between VVS and PVO units. VVS is the Frontal Aviation and has a tactical purpose. PVO is the Air Defense Aviation tasked with the strategic defense of the Soviet Union. While no specific war plans of the USSR are known, it is reasonable to assume that the PVO would not have participated in offensive operations and instead be retained for air defense of the Soviet homeland. This is reinforced by the emphasis of the Soviets on strategic defense in all areas. If the PVO fighter units would have been allowed to attrit themselves in tactical combat, it would open a gap for US nuclear armed bombers and cruise missiles to exploit at a later stage of the conflict. Surely the Soviets would have wanted to prevent this. An exception might have been the Baltic Fleet (or any other fleet), which can be considered a national strategic asset. It is my own interpretation that a deployed Soviet fleet could fall under the air defense umbrella of the PVO.

 

When looking at the fighter units (IAP) above, it is apparent that the majority belongs to the PVO (IAP-PVO) and would probably not be available for offensive actions against Sweden.

 

There are only two VVS IAP units: The 53rd at Siauliau and the 899th near Riga. The 53rd switched from MiG-23M to MiG-29 in 1985. While this was a jump in capability, I have doubts whether the MiG-29 actually had the range for useful operations over Sweden (350 km to Gotland, 500 km to Swedish mainland). The 899th IAP with MiG-21 became a fighter-bomber unit (APIB) in 1981. While the MiG-21SMT fighter-bombers might have had the necessary range, it is doubtful whether the MiG-21bis fighters before were capable of reaching Sweden. Additional discussion of realistic combat ranges of the mentioned types is welcomed.

 

As we can see, the fighter threat to Sweden is quite small. The most probable air threat are unescorted bombers and fighter-bombers. This illustrates well the Swedish decision to introduce the attack Viggen first in the 1970s and delaying the fighter Viggen, as the Draken was still regarded as sufficient for air defense.

 

The most potent threat to Sweden are the Su-24, which have sufficient range and the capability to evade interception by Drakens. Through the 1970s a total of 4 bomber regiments equipped with the type in the theater. This is probably to most important reason for the introduction of the look-down/shoot-down JA-37 Viggen by 1980 (more so than more capable fighters by the Soviet Union).

 

In addition to the shown types, Maritime Aviation and Long Range Aviation had several hundred Tu-16, Tu-22 and Tu-22M based in the western Soviet Union. These could be expected to contribute strikes against Sweden. By the 1970s the Soviet medium bomber force was equipped with Kh-22 and KSR-5 missiles. While these missiles probably were not extremely effective in the land attack role with conventional warheads (unlike nuclear), their respective anti-radar variants might have been a potent threat to the Swedish air defense system. When used against the Swedish coastal area, these missiles could have been launched from within or close to the Soviet borders.

 

A word on reinforcements. Without the actual Soviet war plans it is difficult to guess the reinforcement scheme applied in a build up for war. But I think the reasonable assumption can be made that Sweden was a low priority compared to the NATO theaters and that most reinforcement units would have gone to East Germany, Czechoslovakia or Poland. Actually it might even be possible that some of the regiments depicted above where themselves earmarked to be reinforcements for other theaters (it would make sense for the units that lack the range to do anything useful from their permanent base).

 

For DCS the 1980s time frame is better suited, as for the 1970s a considerable number of older aircraft types are missing (Su-7, Su-9, Su-15, MiG-19, Yak-28 ).

[Farks]

Yes! Excellent post!

[mattebubben]

Bunyap just posted a Viggen Vid.

 

[JaNk0]

I've never hit that thumbs up button so fast before!

[tomcatter]

Sweet, finally I get the feeling of this module with this video.

Great as always Bunyap, thanks...

[MBot]

Here is another question for our armament experts. Is it allowed to mix weapons on paired hardpoints? One configuration I imagine would be one Rb 75T on the left inboard station, one Rb 24J on the right inboard station and jammer/chaff on the wing stations (AJ 37: outboard stations empty). This would allow a high degree of self protection for a strike loadout. And you probably won't launch more than one TV-Maverick on a single attack run anyway.

[legitscoper]

+1

 

Wysłane z mojego SM-A500FU przy użyciu Tapatalka

[Snail]

Another question: is it possible to determine the 'ripple' setting of 120Kg bombs in the aircraft or is it pre-defined at startup?

[legitscoper]

I think no, like 25t cluster dispenser

 

Wysłane z mojego SM-A500FU przy użyciu Tapatalka

[AdurianJ]

Another question: is it possible to determine the 'ripple' setting of 120Kg bombs in the aircraft or is it pre-defined at startup?

 

Well the bombs drop in a predetermined order from the aircraft.

In the manual there's a selector on page 98 no: 9 called "Weapons Sight mode selector" on that you select the distance you want between the bombs in meters.

It's goes from 10m to 30m in 5 m intervals and then to 60 in 10m intervals.

[mattebubben]

Is that the distance between each bomb (or pair of bombs) or is it from the first to last bomb?

[AdurianJ]

I just read the manual and as i understood it it was between each bomb.

When you drop bombs the calculated aim point is where the two center bombs will impact bombs 4 & 5 if 8 bombs are carried or 8 & 9 if 16 bombs are carried.

[Snail]

So it's one pass, all gone? Nothing to pickle along a group of vehicles?

[AdurianJ]

So it's one pass, all gone? Nothing to pickle along a group of vehicles?

 

The bombs stop dropping if you let go of the trigger so it's not like the rockets you'll just have to guesstimate how many bombs will drop if you try to drop a few :D

[IonicRipper]

I wish they would add an option in the comms menu to have your wingman follow you in close and drop their bombs on target at the same with as you to really recreate a proper Viggen strike. Otherwise they will be useless!

 

Thoughts?

[spiddx]

Thoughts?

 

Sure, would be great. But at the current point I'd be glad if the wingmen would conistently start their engines and take off at mission start or refrain from CFITing for no apparent reason. That would be a start.

[MBot]

I wish they would add an option in the comms menu to have your wingman follow you in close and drop their bombs on target at the same with as you to really recreate a proper Viggen strike. Otherwise they will be useless!

 

Thoughts?

 

I think that is a great idea. I fear that the current AI is unable to cope with low level, high threat, one pass attack operations. Gluing them on to your wing to reinforce your bomb and rocket fire would probable make them a little more worthwhile.

[IonicRipper]

Guess I'll keep flying solo then. I have a feeling the AI will be utterly useless in the Viggen.

Edited January 20, 2017 by IonicRipper

[asla36]

I know it's off topic, but it's my birthday :D

 

Should have been one week later tho ;)