AV-8B Harrier Thread

[Pocket Sized]

when do you plan to make it texturized?

 

That's what he's going to ask the texturizer, presumably.

[Deadpoetic6]

Will spawning on a carrier be fixed? I mean, as of now, if you spawn on a carrier with a Huey or a SU-33, you keep bouncing around, really more noticable with the Huey. Usually, if I dont take off fast enough with the Huey, i'm bouncing into the sea.

[Robert31178]

Thanks Zeus for moving my pics, much appreciated. Very much hoping this livery makes the cut. My pops flew with them briefly in Hawaii before they transitioned to F9F's and I've always loved proudly displaying their markings where I fly!!

[Kev2go]

Yeah, but it still wouldn't have had a chance in dogfight training against the F-5Es from the USAF aggressors, and the F-15, in the first place.

 

Actually the original SHAR scored an impressive "Kill" ratio in training against both.

The F-15 had only AIM-7 Sparrows at that time (1980ies), though.

 

Now if you upgrade a highly maneuverable subsonic fighter jet that can easily hold its own against a highly maneuverable F-5E, beat F-15s, to BVR capabilities, that sounds a good idea to me...

 

And before someone goes ballistic about it, this is from "Mr. Sea Harriers" book, who did participate in the training...

Read from page 49 last paragraph

 

https://books.google.de/books?id=Dt7RAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=sea+harrier+against+f-5&source=bl&ots=E8yWW_XS9T&sig=-m98ssynypDwYeDuYxBI6tPlHHM&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiroPv19JvTAhWHzRQKHYJ9Dq0Q6AEITzAM#v=onepage&q=sea%20harrier%20against%20f-5&f=false

:smilewink:

 

...on the other hand if you would slap 4 more fuel tanks to an F-15 to make it a good CAS plane with loiter time, it wouldn't make it comparable to an A-10?! :smartass:

 

EDIT: the major point is, the Ground attack Harrier is a CAS plane. The SEA HARRIER (SHAR) is a fighter/multirole like the F-18 by design...

Seems you mixed them up?

 

No that was my point exactly. SHAr was trying to make harrier airframe into something its not really ideal for, ( let alone created for). hence my halfway sarcastic comment on the A10 a2a capabilities granted its a considerably slower aircraft. but having a Subsonic aircraft for dedicated a2a is not too practical anymore and sort of Niche.

 

and no a Harrier cannot be better than a F15 in bvr, the airframe is too small to have as large or powerful a radar. Even the USCMS Harrier 2 Plus version only manage to jam in the An/Apg65 radar which are from Pre 94 F18's. , which is still impressive given harriers small size , but still doesn't outperform the F15's AN/APG 63 radar capabilities in a2a. however even then the Av8B with such capabitlies its still filling primarily a CAS but its a2a capability but still intended to be used for defense not offensive measures. In my eyes the harriers just isn't a True multi role fighter. IT lacks have more powerful engines, afterburners and top speed. an ability to go supersonic in a time where most fighters can reach up to mach 2.0 or more in some cases.

 

in any case at this rate at this point there would be no point for the Fleet air arm to have modern a2a or even so called " multi role" harriers when the F-35B is going to be that proper Multi role aircraft, with VTOL capability and a hell of a lot more sophisticated. given stealth capability & 5th gen electronics. itl fill both strike as well as a2a far better than any harrier could.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Kev2go

[some1]

Even the USCMS Harrier 2 Plus version only manage to jam in the An/Apg65 radar which are from Pre 94 F18's. , which is still impressive given harriers small size , but still doesn't outperform the F15's AN/APG 63 radar capabilities in a2a. however even then the Av8B with such capabitlies its still filling primarily a CAS but its a2a capability but still intended to be used for defense not offensive measures. In my eyes the harriers just isn't a True multi role fighter. IT lacks have more powerful engines, afterburners and top speed. an ability to go supersonic in a time where most fighters can reach up to mach 2.0 or more in some cases.

 

Um, you are aware that most multi role fighters can't reach 2.0 and even 1.5 Mach is a struggle for them? We're not in the 50's, top speed is not a design priority any more. Manoeuvring combat still takes place in the subsonic range, where Harrier is a very agile opponent, with thrust-to-weight ratio comparable to bigger fighters with afterburners.

 

Sure, a harrier can't fit a radar from F-15, but neither can F-16, F-18 or F-35 for that matter. As I understand it, making an A2A platform from a Harrier was never a top priority for the Marines, hence they installed the radar units that were easily available.

Edited April 12, 2017 by some1

[shagrat]

No that was my point exactly. SHAr was trying to make harrier airframe into something its not really ideal for, ( let alone created for). hence my halfway sarcastic comment on the A10 a2a capabilities granted its a considerably slower aircraft. but having a Subsonic aircraft for dedicated a2a is not too practical anymore and sort of Niche.

 

and no a Harrier cannot be better than a F15 in bvr, the airframe is too small to have as large or powerful a radar. Even the USCMS Harrier 2 Plus version only manage to jam in the An/Apg65 radar which are from Pre 94 F18's. , which is still impressive given harriers small size , but still doesn't outperform the F15's AN/APG 63 radar capabilities in a2a. however even then the Av8B with such capabitlies its still filling primarily a CAS but its a2a capability but still intended to be used for defense not offensive measures. In my eyes the harriers just isn't a True multi role fighter. IT lacks have more powerful engines, afterburners and top speed. an ability to go supersonic in a time where most fighters can reach up to mach 2.0 or more in some cases.

 

in any case at this rate at this point there would be no point for the Fleet air arm to have modern a2a or even so called " multi role" harriers when the F-35B is going to be that proper Multi role aircraft, with VTOL capability and a hell of a lot more sophisticated. given stealth capability & 5th gen electronics. itl fill both strike as well as a2a far better than any harrier could.

I wasn't talking about the future and comparing it to F-22 Air Superiority fighters or F-35 (if they ever get to the UK).

I talked about the SHAR Fa.2 of the 90ies/early 2010s period, where it got BVR capabilities and could already defend proper against fighters of that time.

Yes the F-15 could definitely run away before it gets shot down, but that is what a fleet defence fighter is supposed to do! Scare the enemy away from the carriers...

 

Currently the UK has nowt, no SHAR, no F-35? ...ok, they don't have carriers either, more or less.

 

I personally find the SHAR a very capable and underestimated multirole fighter, that could be interesting in the COIN and dissimilar combat scenarios, while being available and proven technology. On top it was one of the best dogfighters in the world judging its records.

With the AMRAAM the superior knife-fighter, got a class A sniper rifle on top. :)

 

It is definitely nothing like an "A-10C" with radar and AIM-120... not in the slightest.

[whiteladder]

I wasn't talking about the future and comparing it to F-22 Air Superiority fighters or F-35 (if they ever get to the UK).

I talked about the SHAR Fa.2 of the 90ies/early 2010s period, where it got BVR capabilities and could already defend proper against fighters of that time.

Yes the F-15 could definitely run away before it gets shot down, but that is what a fleet defence fighter is supposed to do! Scare the enemy away from the carriers...

 

Currently the UK has nowt, no SHAR, no F-35? ...ok, they don't have carriers either, more or less.

 

I personally find the SHAR a very capable and underestimated multirole fighter, that could be interesting in the COIN and dissimilar combat scenarios, while being available and proven technology. On top it was one of the best dogfighters in the world judging its records.

With the AMRAAM the superior knife-fighter, got a class A sniper rifle on top. :)

 

It is definitely nothing like an "A-10C" with radar and AIM-120... not in the slightest.

 

 

 

Also the Blue Vixen Radar was the most advanced radar in Europe at the time, way ahead of the APG-65, with performance comparable to APG-73(Vixen could track 28 targets and had 11 modes of operation). it went on to form the basis for CAPTOR used in Eurofighter Typhoon.

[whiteladder]

Interesting video, has some Blue Vixen Radar displays from 2:00 mins onwards

 

 

 

 

[DaveRindner]

Sweet Lord almighty AV-8B+ is one module I would buy on day1

 

Sweet Lord almighty AV-8B+ is one module I would buy on day1

[joey45]

Blue circle being the best overall radar.... *enter laughing smiley here*

[Vampyre]

Blue circle being the best overall radar.... *enter laughing smiley here*

Tornado F2 FTW!:megalol:

[joey45]

Tornado F2 FTW!:megalol:

Highly classified radar but my mate at BaE systems said it could track and engage up to 40 odd targets at once..

But due to politics and the good old British bickering it ended up being rendered useless... just like a slab of concret....

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Pocket Sized]

Worth mentioning that yes, the Harrier has a static TWR of near 1.0 at combat weight.

 

That giant bellmouth intake is essential for VTOL because it gobbles up huge amounts of air at low speed. At high speed, however, it loses efficiency and becomes a massive source of parasite drag. The aircraft probably won't accelerate as quickly as some of you might think.

[asla36]

I am wondering if hovering is going to get some use in A-A combat? If not hovering, then I do think very slow flight is going to be an interesting tactic... :)

[Pocket Sized]

I am wondering if hovering is going to get some use in A-A combat? If not hovering, then I do think very slow flight is going to be an interesting tactic... :)

 

Probably not, the aircraft flies like a bus in a hover (past a certain pitch/bank angle, you have to eject because it will flip over) Also, you'd be reducing the energy budget of your Sidewinders considerably.

 

That being said, you CAN use the nozzles to tighten your turn in a dogfight, a pretty common practice IRL. Giving yourself an extra G to work with at any speed is pretty useful!

[Vitormouraa]

Worth mentioning that yes, the Harrier has a static TWR of near 1.0 at combat weight.

 

That giant bellmouth intake is essential for VTOL because it gobbles up huge amounts of air at low speed. At high speed, however, it loses efficiency and becomes a massive source of parasite drag. The aircraft probably won't accelerate as quickly as some of you might think.

 

Well, the Harrier is capable of flying above 400 KIAS with GBUs and stuff, much better than the A-10 (talking about speed) in case I need something faster, we will have the F/A-18, which is supersonic, so we will have a combination of, subsonic, transonic and supersonic A/G aircraft,

 

Oh boy that will be awesome... :)

 

And by the way, I find the Harrier pretty fast.

[Pocket Sized]

Well, the Harrier is capable of flying above 400 KIAS with GBUs and stuff, much better than the A-10 (talking about speed) in case I need something faster, we will have the F/A-18, which is supersonic, so we will have a combination of, subsonic, transonic and supersonic A/G aircraft,

 

Oh boy that will be awesome... :)

 

And by the way, I find the Harrier pretty fast.

 

Of course! I'm not saying the harrier is slow ;)

 

It's just that the acceleration will fall off much more severely than it would in other jet aircraft due to the engine and intake design (in comparison to, say, a MiG-15 or Su-25)

[addde]

Well, the Harrier is capable of flying above 400 KIAS with GBUs and stuff, much better than the A-10 (talking about speed) in case I need something faster, we will have the F/A-18, which is supersonic, so we will have a combination of, subsonic, transonic and supersonic A/G aircraft,

 

Oh boy that will be awesome... :)

 

And by the way, I find the Harrier pretty fast.

 

We already have a supersonic A/G Aircraft! :)

Edited April 12, 2017 by addde

[Vitormouraa]

We already have a supersonic A/G Aircraft!

 

Oh that's true... I forgot the Viggen :D

[asla36]

So... On a lighter A-A load the Harrier will be capable of some interesting maneuvers. How will it handle extreme slow flight? If you (are incompetent like me, and...) blow all your energy how will she handle? Btw I have discovered (through my incompetence) that extreme slow speed flight may actually be a valid tactic in the M-2000c. :D

 

So as far as I understand you will have a certain unrecoverable slip angle (in a hover and very slow speed flight)... Where the nozzles will not be able to create thrust downwards. Is there any exact documented maximum angle (if it was already posted I feel dumb...)?

 

And how's the EW suite? Is it just the basic noise jammer or something more advanced?

 

And... 100 pages! :D

[Pocket Sized]

So... On a lighter A-A load the Harrier will be capable of some interesting maneuvers. How will it handle extreme slow flight? If you (are incompetent like me, and...) blow all your energy how will she handle? Btw I have discovered (through my incompetence) that extreme slow speed flight may actually be a valid tactic in the M-2000c. :D

 

So as far as I understand you will have a certain unrecoverable slip angle (in a hover and very slow speed flight)... Where the nozzles will not be able to create thrust downwards. Is there any exact documented maximum angle (if it was already posted I feel dumb...)?

 

Unlike the Mirage, the Harrier won't bleed energy out the arse when you look at the control stick due to the different wing designs. You can only pull 15-20 degrees of alpha before you stall, and the plane will have excellent low end acceleration. So there shouldn't be many situations where you find yourself low and slow unintentionally.

[asla36]

Unlike the Mirage, the Harrier won't bleed energy out the arse when you look at the control stick due to the different wing designs. You can only pull 15-20 degrees of alpha before you stall, and the plane will have excellent low end acceleration. So there shouldn't be many situations where you find yourself low and slow unintentionally.

Though getting very slow (below the enemies stall speed) to evade an enemy could be an interesting tactic to deny him/her a gun solution... I think that I will have to rethink big chunks of my BFM "tactics", but so will the enemy. :)

 

I am interested... Will you guys develop the AI to use different nozzle positions in a dogfight?

 

And... With the hovering capability... I can't stop thinking "Hot shots"! :D

[ESAc_matador]

You can reduce your turn radius considerably to get a hot shot with sidewinders by using your exahust angle... It is already done. But hovering.... nop.

[asla36]

You can reduce your turn radius considerably to get a hot shot with sidewinders by using your exahust angle... It is already done. But hovering.... nop.

Yeah... ;)

[Vitormouraa]

Well, you can shoot Mavericks from the ground with the Viggen, why can't you do the same with the Sidewinder? (in DCS) My guess is that the FM of the missile wasn't developed to be used under those conditions, so that's why you are able to shoot Mavs even though you are on the ground, probably the missile would stall...

 

I think ED could work on these missiles in order to prevent this sort of a thing.

 

So if Zeus happens to do this test, I'm sure it will work.

 

The question is, is it realistic? Maybe not, that's why ED would need to work on the FM to prevent that.

 

However, at the same time, the AIM-9L weighs no more than 85kg, so maybe it's possible? since its motor is a rocket...

Edited April 12, 2017 by Vitormouraa