FSKRipper Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) I can pull the stick back and hammer the throttle wide open now, no rudder needed on takeoff roll. In this case there is something wrong on your side (or installation). Without T/O assistance enabled and autorudder it is simply not possible to make a Takeoff run without any rudder. Tested in 1.5.2 and 2.0 If you insist that you can do it post a track please! Edited January 15, 2016 by FSKRipper i9 9900K @ 5,0GHz | 1080GTX | 32GB RAM | 256GB, 512GB & 1TB Samsung SSDs | TIR5 w/ Track Clip | Virpil T-50 Stick with extension + Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind pedals | Gametrix 908 Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golani79 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Just tried it out - it did feel the same in both versions. TO is pretty easy in the 51 even without trimming and in my opinion it always was. But you definitely need to use rudder or else you´ll go off the runway. >> DCS liveries by golani79 << Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHDT Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 "They absolutely changed something." (1) I fully agree. Pre-patch, the DCS Mustang was perfect at start, as "sim" as it can be. Post-patch, the DCS Mustang screams "game" and it's no good. From a Le Fana de l'Aviation article, Steve Hinton speaking from the Mustang at the start: Rough translation: ++++++++++++++++++++++ For the novices, I can say that the acceleration forward is at start more like a F1 than a 2CV, now you are warned... 2000 rpm with brakes on, you push the throttle VERY GENTLY up to 55' (max, 61') and at the same time, you have to push the rudder FULL RIGHT to counter the first and the second engine effects, that means the helicoidal wind and the disymetric traction, which move the aicraft FURIOUSLY to the left. As you have just delivered about 1500 PS, the NOT VERY HAPPY fuselage firmly wish to go to the other side. So you have to counteract this with the stick to the right for FIGHTING against the engine torque and to help the left landing wheel which is so FURIOUSLY pressed. At 110 km/h, a light push on the stick put the aircraft in flight line "low tail" for getting the take-off angle. But now, the 200 kg gyroscop what is the propeller turning at full regime makes the aircraft fly to the left, so rudder to the right..... ++++++++++++++++++++++ Pre-patch, the DCS Mustang was at start exactly like Steve Hinton describes it, a furious beast to master and it was cool. Post-patch, you can apply immediate full throttle with an untrimmed aircraft and get up in the air only with a minimal rudder input. It does not look right and it's boring. Please, DCS, have a look at this ! (1) about changes, I noticed on another topic that the 109K jockeys noticed too a change, but a change to a much more hard start than before. So, probably "something" has changed with the patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehouse Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Get your friend to apply T/O trim, rudder 6 deg right, elevator 1 notch aft (2 deg), no flap and he will sail off the runway with no trouble. .. Thanks for the kind thoughts, but let's just say he has a lack of patience issue. We've all tried that sort of advice to him but somehow it goes in one ear and out the other. Makes life difficult...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chain Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) "They absolutely changed something." (1) I fully agree. Pre-patch, the DCS Mustang was perfect at start, as "sim" as it can be. Post-patch, the DCS Mustang screams "game" and it's no good. From a Le Fana de l'Aviation article, Steve Hinton speaking from the Mustang at the start: Rough translation: ++++++++++++++++++++++ For the novices, I can say that the acceleration forward is at start more like a F1 than a 2CV, now you are warned... 2000 rpm with brakes on, you push the throttle VERY GENTLY up to 55' (max, 61') and at the same time, you have to push the rudder FULL RIGHT to counter the first and the second engine effects, that means the helicoidal wind and the disymetric traction, which move the aicraft FURIOUSLY to the left. As you have just delivered about 1500 PS, the NOT VERY HAPPY fuselage firmly wish to go to the other side. So you have to counteract this with the stick to the right for FIGHTING against the engine torque and to help the left landing wheel which is so FURIOUSLY pressed. At 110 km/h, a light push on the stick put the aircraft in flight line "low tail" for getting the take-off angle. But now, the 200 kg gyroscop what is the propeller turning at full regime makes the aircraft fly to the left, so rudder to the right..... ++++++++++++++++++++++ Pre-patch, the DCS Mustang was at start exactly like Steve Hinton describes it, a furious beast to master and it was cool. Post-patch, you can apply immediate full throttle with an untrimmed aircraft and get up in the air only with a minimal rudder input. It does not look right and it's boring. Please, DCS, have a look at this ! (1) about changes, I noticed on another topic that the 109K jockeys noticed too a change, but a change to a much more hard start than before. So, probably "something" has changed with the patch. Can you make a video of your P-51D takeoff in which we can see your HOTAS, rudder pedals and the screen? :joystick: Or a video where we can see the "Show controls indicator" during the takeoff? This indicator is activated with right ctrl + Enter if I remember correctly. Chain Edited January 15, 2016 by Chain System: Windows 10 | i7-7700K @ 4.5 Ghz | 32GB of RAM | Nvidia GTX 1080, 3440x1440 | DELL Ultrawide U3415W | Samsung 960 Evo M.2 and 2 TB Seagate Barracuda | TM Warthog Hotas | SLAW F-16 Pedals | Oculus Rift CV1 and HTC Vive PRO VR + High fidelity F/A-18C simpit :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) Guys, I couldn't find it as PERFECT as it is right now, and always has been, in DCS's p51d... After all, we can't forget ED had access to their own P51s for the making of this excellent module. I find absolutely no difference in my handling in the sim, during takeoff, from this RW footage from the cockpit... Can you ? Watch the pilot inputs ( rudder and stick... ) using 55 in hg mp, and remember how you do it in DCS :-) Pretty much EXACTLY the same, right ? And, are you sure you're not using takeoff assist or auto-rudder ? NOTE: In the beginning the pilot uses probably FULL left rudder to aid with the turn to align with the runway - use the visual reference of his leg and foot, and compare to what he uses during the takeoff roll... [ame] [/ame] Edited January 15, 2016 by jcomm Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHDT Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) "And, are you sure you're not using takeoff assist or auto-rudder ?" Sure. But it looks like the aids are "on". Are they some config files I could delete to get them "new" by repairing the setup ? PS: I've no other version of the game. And I've not played since the past three months. Edited January 15, 2016 by CHDT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHDT Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 For a test, I deleted my config files and did a "torrent repair". Nothing has changed, at the start, the Mustang can be flown almost like an helo, suspended at its propeller, without any torque effect. I don't know what to do ! Where can I check manually in the config files if thoses aids are "on" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art-J Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Well, If one would use the article on previous page as a reference, then 1.2 Mustang was too easy as well, as I never had to use excessive rudder during any phase of take off, even when I was learning the plane. i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Rookie Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Where can I check manually in the config files if thoses aids are "on" ? %homepath%\Saved Games\DCS\Config\options.lua (e.g. c:\Users\CHDT\Saved Games\DCS\options.lua) For 2.0 it would be in DCS.openalpha ["P-51D"] = { ["CPLocalList"] = "default", ["assistance"] = 0, ["autoRudder"] = false, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msalama Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Pre-patch... Post-patch... Except that for me - and many others - there's no difference in how it behaves pre- or post-patch. How do you explain that? The German birds are trickier to handle than the Pony, that's true. But AFAIR this is how the P-51 release version has always behaved regardless - and everyone at ED's say nothing has been changed in ages either. So again, how do you explain that vs. your own experiences? Now this may be a bug affecting only a certain subset of Pony drivers, but I don't know... how does one proceed in isolating and swatting such a bug, provided that it really is there? The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 @CHDT In the Special Tab of the menus, there is a tick mark for rudder assist and one slider for the takeoff assist. Are you sure you have: 1) No tick in the rudder assist; 2) The takeoff assist slider at 0% ? Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordanduc Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 No difference on my end. The only way I can reproduce the hassle free takeoff many are speaking about is with the assistance settings on. Out. Maximus VI Hero 4770k 780Ti 2-way SLI 16GB 2X8GB 1866mhz G.Skill Ripjaws Z Samsung 850 Pro SSDs 3 Benq XL2720Z monitors in surround TrackIR 5 Windows 10 Pro HOTAS Warthog Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals The list goes on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavemanhead Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 As a sort of side note its funny to see the other side of this coin, when the 190 came out, and everyone said it was unrealistic because it was too hard to take off in. Now the P-51D is not realistic because its not hard to take off in. Planes were design to fly, if they arent very good at that then they probably wont be very popular :) Sith, Although in general, I agree with you on subjective language uses like "too hard" or "too easy" being essentially useless... I still can't get over the fact that I can ram the throttle forward on the mustang or slowly advance and either way, there's basically no left yawing action there to counter with right rudder or brake. I've checked settings and unless there's a bit switch on the takeoff control for the P-51, set backwards relative to the 109 or 190, then it hard to imagine this behavior as "right"... 2.0 is my first foray into the DCS series. And no, I certainly am not one who thinks flying an airplane should be "hard". I believe the 190 and 109 are great representations of handling on the ground for taxiing and during the TO and landing rolls but they are a little bit finicky and probably have a tighter margin for error than the real planes would, but they seem "close"... The mustang just seems way too "automated" on the TO roll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHDT Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 %homepath%\Saved Games\DCS\Config\options.lua (e.g. c:\Users\CHDT\Saved Games\DCS\options.lua) For 2.0 it would be in DCS.openalpha ["P-51D"] = { ["CPLocalList"] = "default", ["assistance"] = 0, ["autoRudder"] = false, Thanks for the info. So, no aids are "on" on my pc. And I'm not a fool. I play sims since the first day of IL2 launch. I perfectly remember how the Mustang was three months ago. And I see how it is now, at least on my config. Torque is simply gone (very minimal to be precise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHDT Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 Where can I send a very short track: Hot start, immediate full throttle, no trimming at all, I don't even touch the stick, just a little rudder and I was in the air without problem. And in the air, I could climb immediately at a very high angle, even with a low speed and in this attitude, brutal changes of throttle give no effects (in real life, it should have put the aircraft almost on its back with a loss of control, or at least, with a very dangerous attitude). Of course, full "simu" with no aids. Believe me, the difference is so huge from before the patch, that something is broken at least on some configs. I've no problems to believe that some guys have no trouble, so guys with no trouble I ask you to accept that something is wrong for some other guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHDT Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) Here's the track: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=41405994762543955812 PS: I even deleted the files in my "Saved games" folder to let the game create other files. At first start of the game, the assistance was set by defaut at 100. I put it back of course to "o". Without any effect. For some reasons, I imagine that on some configs the aids stay at "100" even if one set them at "o". Edited January 15, 2016 by CHDT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted January 15, 2016 ED Team Share Posted January 15, 2016 If no one else gets to it, I will look at it tonight when I get home. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msalama Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Checked the track - and yes, your torque and prop effects are gone. Checked the configs included in the track package as well - and no, you don't have any "training wheels" on. WTH? No clue as to what may cause this. Ideas anyone? The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehouse Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Ok well the options like rudder assistance are in C:\Users\your username\Saved Games\DCS\Config\options.lua P-51D and TF-51D are at lines 158 and 166 and if rudder assistance and autorudder are off the sections of lua should look like: ["P-51D"] = { ["CPLocalList"] = "default", ["assistance"] = 0, ["autoRudder"] = false, }, and ["TF-51D"] = { ["CPLocalList"] = "default", ["assistance"] = 0, ["autoRudder"] = false, }, Quite possibly Echo38 was on the right track and your DCS folder under saved games is corrupt somehow and if your options.lua sections look like above then perhaps as he suggested rename the DCS folder to force the game to create a new one, set up the basic control mappings for the P-51 and see if it makes a difference. If it does problem solved (other than you need to redo your mappings) and if not you can delete the newly created DCS folder and just rename the old one back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo38 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I even deleted the files in my "Saved games" folder to let the game create other files. Huh. Well, I would do a complete uninstall & reinstall, then. (No deactivation or activation should be necessary.) It's a huge pain, I know, but I can't think of anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief1942 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I am in that group of frequent P-51 flyers that still has the "proper" torque effects from the engine. Whether on T/O or landing, I have to be continually mindful of how gingerly I manage throttle changes because otherwise the plane will respond to the torque effects and I'll be all over the place. Seems those that are having an issue are numerous enough to support the issue of some anomaly in their particular setups. When one thinks of the fidelity/complexity of all these planes that ED and others have provided us, is it any wonder the task of making sure there are no changes/bugs inserted in any of the older modules each and every time they do an update must almost be like creating the modules from the start. Hopefully someone will find a cause and solution to these guys problems. I hope those that are having a problem have checked the possibility of a 90 degree crosswind of some significant magnitude from the left during T/O. Those wind settings have been an issue in more than one planes peculiar actions. Just a thought. Intel i5-4690K Devil's Canyon, GForce TitanX, ASUS Z-97A MB, 16GB GDDR3 GSkill mem, Samsung SSD X3,Track IR, TM Warthog, MFG Crosswind pedals, Acer XB280HK monitor,GAMETRIX KW-908 JETSEAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundar Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Maybe there is some other installed module that is causing a conflict or some such change? Seems unusual that a few are experiencing this and that others are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHDT Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 Ok, thanks guys for your answers. I think the only solution for me is a complete reinstall, what a pain with my slow connection !!! I will use Revo for that (quite competent soft for desinstalling all the files), but are there some hidden files I must especially look after to be sure everything is really gone ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Ok, thanks guys for your answers. I think the only solution for me is a complete reinstall, what a pain with my slow connection !!! I will use Revo for that (quite competent soft for desinstalling all the files), but are there some hidden files I must especially look after to be sure everything is really gone ? Always make sure your "Saved Games" folder, under the Windows Users / <your user > folder, where some of the DCS confs are also stored, is erased as well, before the re-install. Good Luck! Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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