[Re-Poll] MiG-29A as a free airplane for DCS:W

[dartuil]

Mig-29 for free without ammo.

Like P-51 and TF-51.

We dont consider but a fast mover for free would bring some people to buy the full model.

Its my guess dont beat me. :)

My case is simple WHEN I hear about DCS I didnt like the free aircraft so I stay out for months but get back when I saw video of F-15 I think it was from winchesterdelta1 dont remember well but I said if he can do that I can. ;)

Edited February 18, 2016 by dartuil

[Seaeagle]

 

2.)The MiG-29A has been made redundant by the MiG-29S. If each MiG-29 was released as a separate module, nobody would buy the A. And if they were released in a pack the A would be overlooked anyways.

 

3.)The MiG-29G would be far too limited and frustrating to a new pilot. It only carries the early 1980s R-27R (cannot carry any E series or T series), R-73, and R-60s as A-A weapons. This would be awfully inferior against planes like the F-15 or really any other 4th Gen Fighter.

 

Going by that reasoning no one would ever consider buying a separate MiG-21 module.

 

What should we do about the MiG-29A?

 

"we" shouldn't be doing anything - ED should make a full DCS level MiG-29 module and sell it at full price.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Seaeagle

[Flogger23m]

Short legs and two Cold War era BVR missiles aren't going to help much, if at all.

 

It isn't so much the weaponry but the flight characteristics. The MIG-29 is easy to fly, and will likely still be with the PFM. Not F-15C easy, but enough to prevent new players from having difficultly doing basic maneuvers. The "better plane" hardly matters much because of the nature of the game. The MIG-29A is much "better" than the WWII planes in air to air combat but it doesn't matter much does it? It comes down to mission design and servers mission sets. If you're pitting the P-51s against Su-27s then of course the P-51s will be "terrible" aircraft. Luckily there are some decent playable foes for it, the M2000C and MIG-29. For AI there are things like F-16As, MIG-23s, ect.

 

I think the MIG-29A (or G) would be an nice choice for a free plane. Make the S and whichever other variant isn't free as a standalone package. And if campaigns are made, perhaps they can be for the paid S to encourage players who continue to play the game to buy the S (or FC3) module in addition to a campaign module.

 

Going by that reasoning no one would ever consider buying a separate MiG-21 module.

 

That doesn't make sense. The MIG-21 is entirely different from the MIG-29. The MIG-29A is essentially the same as the S, minus the ECM, R-77 and a few other minor things. If they're both sold for the same price, or even bundled together, almost no one will end up playing the A because it is so similar to the S with a few disadvantages. The MIG-21 is an entirely different experience. You seem to be of the opinion that the most modern plane is the only aircraft to play. Maybe that is true for you, but it isn't for most of us. Otherwise everyone would be flying the F-15C exclusively. The problem with the MIG-29A is that the experience (flight, cockpit, major systems ect.) is essentially the same as the S, with some notable shortcomings. The only people who would buy a standalone A are diehard ED fans who buy the module simply to show support. Everyone else will simply buy the S or FC3. The diehard fans can always purchase a few copies of FC3 and accomplish the same goal of getting ED some extra cash. :)

 

I hardly fly the A myself. I do play it every now and then but I typically use it for AI more when I need a plane without an ECM.

 

ED could start charging for Golden Wags Tokens so that you can purchase ammo and fuel for your free aircraft.

 

There is not a genre of game I dislike more than the MMO. Too bad, as War Thunder looked like an alright Battlefield alternative. I couldn't get past the main menu. ;)

 

Also IIRC the only difference between the Mig 29G and A is that in the G its a German lady screaming at you to pull up

 

G lacks air to ground weapons and I believe the R-27T.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Flogger23m

[Seaeagle]

The "better plane" hardly matters much because of the nature of the game. The MIG-29A is much "better" than the WWII planes in air to air combat but it doesn't matter much does it? It comes down to mission design and servers mission sets. If you're pitting the P-51s against Su-27s then of course the P-51s will be "terrible" aircraft. Luckily there are some decent playable foes for it, the M2000C and MIG-29. For AI there are things like F-16As, MIG-23s, ect.

 

Precisely!

 

That doesn't make sense. The MIG-21 is entirely different from the MIG-29. The MIG-29A is essentially the same as the S, minus the ECM, R-77 and a few other minor things.

 

MiG-21 - 60'ies

MiG-23 - 70'ies

MiG-29 - 80'ies

MiG-29S - 90'ies

 

If they're both sold for the same price, or even bundled together, almost no one will end up playing the A because it is so similar to the S with a few disadvantages.

 

You seem to be of the opinion that the most modern plane is the only aircraft to play. Maybe that is true for you, but it isn't for most of us. Otherwise everyone would be flying the F-15C exclusively.

 

I am now the one who thinks the most modern plane is the only aircraft to play?!

 

The problem with the MIG-29A is that the experience (flight, cockpit, major systems ect.) is essentially the same as the S, with some notable shortcomings.

 

That goes with the age - same way as it would be with an F-18A -> F-18C -> F-18E.

 

Besides, the MiG-29(9.12) is a real aircraft build in large numbers and widely exported, while the MiG-29S as depicted in the game is a curiosity that doesn't exist in reality.

[probad]

this topic is beyond awful

OP didnt hear the words he wanted to hear the first time around so he makes the same damn thread all over again only this time with more yes option

 

as said above we're customers, not board members, we don't do anything except exchange an already modest amount of money to enjoy the fruits of ed's labor, so stop trying to push your agenda under the disguise of communal benefit

 

because it doesn't help anyone. it doesn't help ed to have money to pay for more and better work, it doesn't help the community because all "free" does is attract people who lack passion and aren't even interested in investing themselves in learning about aircraft.

Edited February 19, 2016 by probad

[Why485]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the quality of the replies considering where we are, but I think it's a real shame that hardly anybody replies with meaningful criticism beyond just laughing and dismissal of what I believe is a very reasonable proposal.

 

OP outlined all the reasons for why it's a good idea, and they're ideas that I completely agree with. Even though I bought A-10C, I didn't really get into modern DCS until I started flying around with the FC3 jets, and it took me a lot of convincing to eventually get to the point of essentially rebuying LOMAC for a third(!) time. However, once I flew around a bit in the F-15C (which back then had just gotten its swanky PFM) I was completely sold, I've bought many new modules since then, and DCS is one again one of the main ways I spend my video game time.

 

I don't care for slow ground attack planes or prop planes. Su-25T does nothing for me, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've flown the TF-51. If there had been a modern fighter, and it seriously doesn't have to even be a good one, then I can guarantee you that I would have been sold right away and jumped right in.

 

This isn't about you. This isn't about current DCS players, although it does benefit them. It's about drawing in new players to further support the game and to grow the community. Having a teaser plane with a very attractive role (who doesn't want to fly fast jets and get into dogfights?), you'll give people a much more compelling argument.

 

On top of that, it's also a great way for new players to unwittingly ease themselves into the more complex modules by learning the basics in a simplified systems plane.

 

Don't give me that crap of "why do you want everything for free?" This isn't about me. This is a strategic long term decision that I believe would be in DCS's best interests in attracting new players.

[Flogger23m]

That goes with the age - same way as it would be with an F-18A -> F-18C -> F-18E.

 

A to C I'd agree, but not so much with the C to E. They're actually different aircraft. Visually and flight characteristics are notably different. If given the choice between buying one I'd go for the E, but I'd still like to get the C later down the road.

 

because it doesn't help anyone. it doesn't help ed to have money to pay for more and better work, it doesn't help the community because all "free" does is attract people who lack passion and aren't even interested in investing themselves in learning about aircraft.

 

And what about those that continue to play the game and end up buying a few modules? I'd consider that to be a good thing, even if the numbers are small. The MIG-29 is considerably more forgiving than the Su-25T/TF-51. In years past people could play less realistic flight games to ease into flight sims. This isn't an option anymore as the flight game genre is more dead than the flight sim genre.

 

The MIG-29A is essentially a freebie right now regardless. Either you get it bundled with FC3 or it will likely be bundled with the MIG-29S/G. And I doubt the MIG-29 module will be more expensive than the Su-27 was at release ($20?) to account for the variant almost no one wants to pay for. There is always the option to sell the A in separate module from the S, but I doubt it will get any sales. People will either go for the MIG-29S module or get FC3. Because paying ~$40 for both isn't a good bargain when you can get FC3 for $50.

 

Add in that FC3 is (or was?) the best selling module for DCS World and I'd think most DCS players already have the MIG-29A. I don't see much sales revenue coming from a standalone A at this point. But it is in a unique situation - you can make a free and payware version, the S, with little (relative) effort. The differences between the A/S are not too big from a development standpoint, much like the TF-51/P-51. This allows you to sell a paid version. This really can't be done with any other module without sinking in lots of development time and money.

 

I voted no. If anyone can explain how this makes sense, in real terms, I might consider it. However, if this is done, why not a free helo, too!!

 

Helicopters are even harder to fly than the Su-25T. The UH-1 is very difficult to keep straight, and maneuvering the KA-50 is tricky. The MIG-29 can essentially be flown in your sleep in comparison. A helicopter would be a horrible choice for attracting someone new to flight sims. Likewise, what helicopter would you base the free one on? Remember, the MIG-29A is essentially an upgrade for an aircraft bought many times over the past decade. With a paid variant for sale (S). If you're proposing a new helicopter developed from the ground up to be free you're having an entirely different discussion from the rest of us. Building an aircraft from the ground up to be free is unreasonable.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Flogger23m

[ekg]

Seriously what does getting a bunch of 13 year olds in MiG-29s going to get the community? That's really the only group of people I can see that can't afford FC3. If you want them to get into sims get them into the novalogic sims from the 90s. Those were cheap arcade style games that I started off with.

 

In all fairness to the developers they are VERY GENEROUS for giving free updates. They have every right to charge for each update that they make, especially for the fulcrum since it's a huge overhaul. Asking for more free stuff is a slap in the face to the developers. Might as well ask for DCS to be opensource if you want free...

[strikers_blade]

I am fairly new to DCS so I might not have all the information already available for this topic.

I am against the MIG29 being free. The free plane idea sounds good but I don't think the MIG29 is what we need for free.

 

Free airplanes is definitely what you need to attract players. Such airplane should be able to attract the newbie but also the veteran. For example, one airplane should be FC style while the other bird could be cockpit clickable.

 

Free airplanes should also limit the players in what they can do. Call it a trainer model, a unarmed model or whatever else that will force the players to want more. Just an example here: The tigersharp F-20 is available? Sell that module but give the F-5A/T38.

 

So with that being said, no "bread and butter" airplane should be given for free. If the MIG29 is what brings the money in, don't give it up. If the MIG29 is enough that players don't want more, don't give it up.

 

In regards to ED giving free updates? They better free. An update means that something was wrong to begin with and must be fixed. A new map, a new airplane, a new campaign fixed nothing and shall not be free. I should not feel lucky when ED fix their problems. I definitely will when they come out with new stuff, which I will gladly pay for. It is actually quite simple: If I need to pay to get my game working, if I need a DLC to make my game working, If I get everything for free and don't feel the need for more, then it is all bad business planning.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Seriously what does getting a bunch of 13 year olds in MiG-29s going to get the community? That's really the only group of people I can see that can't afford FC3. If you want them to get into sims get them into the novalogic sims from the 90s. Those were cheap arcade style games that I started off with.

 

In all fairness to the developers they are VERY GENEROUS for giving free updates. They have every right to charge for each update that they make, especially for the fulcrum since it's a huge overhaul. Asking for more free stuff is a slap in the face to the developers. Might as well ask for DCS to be opensource if you want free...

 

That strategy has really turned flight sims into the genre juggernaut that is today. :music_whistling:

[Apache600]

This is what terrifies me about November .... (USA elections for those wondering) No, i'm not going to make this political ... cause that's against the rules, but this is the very thing wrong with the upcoming generation. :helpsmilie:

 

I'm going to make a comprehensive list of EVERYTHING you're entitled to as a human being:

...

 

 

...

 

 

...

 

There, that's the list. Feel free to add to that extensive list if you can think of anything.

 

Now, when it comes to what we ALREADY get for free, well the SU-25T is a fantastic platform! I could not, and still can not, believe that it's free. I could easily JUST play the SU-25T and be happy with DCS. You have access to campaigns, single player missions, multiplayer servers, the mission editor ... all of that, for no cost what-so-ever.

If you're going to argue that the Mig-29A should be made available because it's a fast mover, well ... why not the Mig-21 like someone else mentioned? It's not flashy with new glass screens, or an amazing radar. Or how about the rotor folks? Shouldn't there be something free in that category? You already get a WWII TF-51 ... Maybe they should then make a free unit in every category so that it can draw in larger crowds!! Get combined arms involved. Come onnnnn free T-55!

 

TFC / ED have put in a tremendous amount of work into their products over the years. And they continue to do so. They should be compensated accordingly for their work. Introducing the Mig-29A would probably not drawn in anyone additionally. And if it does, I wouldn't want some shallow hot headed lone ranger "Call of Duty" player in the servers anyway. The SU-25T should suffice in clenching the attention of those serious about getting into this sim.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

 

I'm going to make a comprehensive list of EVERYTHING you're entitled to as a human being:

...

 

 

...

 

 

...

 

There, that's the list. Feel free to add to that extensive list if you can think of anything.

:doh:

 

Now, when it comes to what we ALREADY get for free, well the SU-25T is a fantastic And if it does, I wouldn't want some shallow hot headed lone ranger "Call of Duty" player in the servers anyway. The SU-25T should suffice in clenching the attention of those serious about getting into this sim.

They're already present.

[RoflSeal]

I honestly don't see how people throw such a fit over the A or G possibly becoming free planes. They are not exactly capable especially the G compared the SU-27, F-15 or MiG-29C.

 

But a fast aircraft, that is easy and fun to fly can definately draw people in (and it won't draw in CoD kids, they haven't heard of DCS anyway).

 

Su-25T the most fun aircraft to fly, handles like a pig.

 

And I don't gain anything from a free MiG-29A/G, I have FC3 already, and I never touch them.

 

 

ED has every right to charge for every update, if they do the however, playerbase will cliffdive.

Edited February 19, 2016 by RoflSeal

[probad]

That strategy has really turned flight sims into the genre juggernaut that is today. :music_whistling:

 

not being a genre juggernaut is the only thing that saves dcs from being a vapid piece of crap

 

pieces of crap meaning the player is completely marginalized thanks to "convenience" and "quality of life" features; games full of meaningless metrics like achievements and stats instead of weird, funny, awful, or awesome experiences that are worth remembering.

 

i'll pay for quality over quantity every time every time.

[Why485]

Free airplanes is definitely what you need to attract players. Such airplane should be able to attract the newbie but also the veteran. For example, one airplane should be FC style while the other bird could be cockpit clickable.

 

Free airplanes should also limit the players in what they can do. Call it a trainer model, a unarmed model or whatever else that will force the players to want more. Just an example here: The tigersharp F-20 is available? Sell that module but give the F-5A/T38.

 

So with that being said, no "bread and butter" airplane should be given for free. If the MIG29 is what brings the money in, don't give it up. If the MIG29 is enough that players don't want more, don't give it up.

 

Please keep in mind that OP is talking about the MiG-29A or MiG-29G, which nobody flies ever and is basically a gimped MiG-29S that's worse all-around with worse weapons. It is very much limited in terms of capability, and that's on top of the MiG-29's already limited capability compared to the Flanker and F-15C.

 

It is by no means a "bread and butter" plane.

 

If you're going to argue that the Mig-29A should be made available because it's a fast mover, well ... why not the Mig-21 like someone else mentioned? It's not flashy with new glass screens, or an amazing radar. Or how about the rotor folks? Shouldn't there be something free in that category? You already get a WWII TF-51 ... Maybe they should then make a free unit in every category so that it can draw in larger crowds!! Get combined arms involved. Come onnnnn free T-55!

 

The OP already has a very compelling list of arguments for why specifically the MiG-29A (or G) and only the MiG-29A (or G). Nobody is asking for a free MiG-21, which is a module that I believe is absolutely worth the money and has no reason to be free.

 

Introducing the Mig-29A would probably not drawn in anyone additionally. And if it does, I wouldn't want some shallow hot headed lone ranger "Call of Duty" player in the servers anyway. The SU-25T should suffice in clenching the attention of those serious about getting into this sim.

 

I'm sorry but saying that a free downgraded FC3 DCS fast jet that nobody with FC3 ever uses anyway would attract only a "shallow hot headed lone ranger Call of Duty player" is a disgustingly short sighted and arrogant viewpoint.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Why485

[Galwran]

I agree. MiG-29G has a poor weapons load but could attract new players. Ed would no lose sales by making it free.

[Flogger23m]

why not the Mig-21 like someone else mentioned?

 

Two reasons:

 

1) It is not that easy to fly. Easier than the UH-1, but still difficult. Lack of HUD doesn't help either. It really isn't much different from the Su-25T in this regard, so making it free makes zero sense.

 

2) You would have to develop another free variant of the MIG-21, which costs money. Which variant do you propose? If there are significant changes, such as cockpit 3D models, then you're spending a lot of money and time on something that is free. Which again, invalidates the whole point.

 

You're going to have to put some effort into thinking why the MIG-29A (or G) is brought up and not the F-15, Su-27 or some other plane. Asset wise, the A/G is essentially the same as the paid S. There isn't a massive leap in money and time spent developing the A. And a large amount of the potential players already get it as a freebie in FC3, which has been on the market for years. Whatever customer base there was for a standalone A has largely been carved out by FC3 sales over the years.

 

The A will either be:

 

- Included with the S, essentially being a freebie for those that buy the MIG-29 module.

 

- Standalone with abysmal sales as anyone but large ED fans skip the module.

 

Essentially, this means the MIG-29A has a unique opportunity. Most of the assets are shared with a variant which is more marketable and sales of that module will cover development costs. The customer base is already hollowed out as it has been included in a bundle which has been sold for years. And finally, it is a rather forgiving aircraft to learn with. Easier recovery and a HUD which makes those without Track IR/Occulus see basic necessities much easier. It is one of the reasons I don't like WWII planes; without Track IR it is a pain constantly panning down to look at instruments.

 

 

I'll go ahead and say that this is very unlikely to happen, and I think it will just be thrown in as a freebie with the MIG-29S module. There isn't too much of a point discussing it further.

[mvsgas]

It would seem that twice now we have proved that most voters on you polls agree that developers should get paid for their work if we want them to keep making new modules. I guess will see if your poll results change over the weekend.

[j.sabo12]

Voted no, since I bought it 3 times already, with lomac, fc2 and fc3. And 10 bucks, even sometimes 3 on a sale really isn't that expensive

[Kuky]

Nothing else should be made free.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Gotta make sure you retain those FC3 aircraft, even the ones almost no one ever touches. :music_whistling:

[Svend_Dellepude]

What if I went to buy a car for X price and the next year the car factory decided that their cars should be free for everybody.

I would feel a bit stupid.

I know it's a different price range but the principle is the same.

[RoflSeal]

What if I went to buy a car for X price and the next year the car factory decided that their cars should be free for everybody.

I would feel a bit stupid.

I know it's a different price range but the principle is the same.

 

But what if you bought 6 car pack and you never use 1 of them. Would you care if the dealer started giving that 1 for free.

 

 

I know its a silly analogy, because people don't buy cars in packs, but then again FC3 aircraft come in a bundle and only 2 of those are aircraft are used seriously (F-15 and Su-27), whilst the Su-33 and MiG-29S populations are due to increase when their PFM gets released, I don't see the masses going to the MiG-29A/G.

 

Honestly the best analogy to this is when we were young and played trading card game, you don't care if someone is giving away crap/non-rare/non-special cards for free eventhough you already have got those cards in the packs you bought because those cards are of little value to you, but hey, if your friend gets them that could be a basis of a deck for them to play with you.

In the same way the MiG-29A/G add little to no value to the FC3 pack, but if you offer one as free, it could entice people in.

Edited February 22, 2016 by RoflSeal

[Fer_Fer]

the person that i know that Fly the G is somebody whose parent flew Mig 29's in the DDR.

 

that being said, is there even a FM difference between the 2? the A and G IIRC have a bit less fuel and less weight due to the absence of ECM right?

[BFBunny]

The current free ground pounder is one of the best aircraft in the game and it's free. You have loads of weapons to play with which gives you an idea of what to expect and the free mustang gives and idea of what a click pit is like.

 

I spent ages playing with the free frogfoot and had loads of fun with it. You see people playing them in mp too. I still play with it for fun.

 

How many mig 29s do you see except when the mission makers force them on you, but then most people end up in other planes. I had to use a mig in mp and didn't have a clue how it worked. I loaded the su and could still deploy the weapons.

 

I love the mig 29, but it's eye candy in it's looks rather than being an actually useful aircraft. You can go online in the frogfoot for free and be a real asset.

 

The level of patience you'll need to learn the frogfoot is similar to the paid modules which sets you as either being one kind of person or another.

 

The price doesn't mean you have to spend and buy every single module. If you have an overall interest in flight then you'll gradually get them all otherwise you cherry pick your favorites.

 

Heck. If you were to buy them all in one go you'd never ever be able to leave the house and trying to learn some of the more complex systems all in one go would drive you bonkers.

 

I tend to learn one aircraft the best I can which takes one to two months and then I go on to another for a bit.

 

You could just spend a few $ on the su 27 or the f-15 and get a fantastic sim. The f16 game I used to play that's not bms was probably less sim than any of the fc3 aircraft and I (my parents) paid like $50 for that!