AIM-7M Sparrow performance

[Schmidtfire]

I've been flying a bit with an AIM-7M loadout. For me, this is the weapon most associated with the F-15C Air Superiority Fighter. Is it really this bad in real life? AIM-7's been used to gain a LOT of air-to-air victories during the Gulf war, but I cant't help to wonder how that did happen when I fly DCS... In close it can sort of be lethal, but a manouvering target in BVR is hopeless in DCS. Seems wrong that both the Flanker and MiG-29 can outperform the F-15C Eagle with R-27ER and ET's. I know that they are extended range, but it dosen't seem right that the Eagle is so outclassed without Amraams...

[karambiatos]

R/ER is just as bad as the Aim-7 though.

 

ETs are it's own thing, and a pointless comparison.

 

 

Sure would be nice to have SARHs that don't go for bubblegum wrappers though.

Edited May 18, 2016 by karambiatos

[apocom]

The problem in MP is, that nobody flies the Eagle. Everybody flies an amraam launching platform.

 

And I don't know why you are bringing the gulf war into this, because the iraq didn't had ER's or ET's afaik.

[ShuRugal]

Fly the Flanker before you say that the R-27 is outperforming. The performance of all missiles right now is significantly sub-par, and SARH missiles in particular have been effectively useless for several months now.

[QuiGon]

I've been flying a bit with an AIM-7M loadout. For me, this is the weapon most associated with the F-15C Air Superiority Fighter. Is it really this bad in real life? AIM-7's been used to gain a LOT of air-to-air victories during the Gulf war, but I cant't help to wonder how that did happen when I fly DCS...

[...]

 

The figures for the Aim-7 in the Gulf War are 88 shots in total, achieving 24 kills resulting in a PK of 27,3%. Now compare to DCS where you usally don't fight inferior iraqi aircraft but equally capable russian aircraft.

[Schmidtfire]

I fly the Mig29 and Flanker a lot. But when I fly the F-15 Eagle "God Mode" should be more fitting than it is, even with SAHR missiles it should be more than a handful for a Flanker or Mig29. But when I fly mp with Sparrows it feels like Im at a huge disadvantage or closer to an even situation depending on the situation. The Eagle shouldn't need amraams to perform well in combat.

[QuiGon]

I fly the Mig29 and Flanker a lot. But when I fly the F-15 Eagle "God Mode" should be more fitting than it is, even with SAHR missiles it should be more than a handful for a Flanker or Mig29. But when I fly mp with Sparrows it feels like Im at a huge disadvantage or closer to an even situation depending on the situation. The Eagle shouldn't need amraams to perform well in combat.

 

And why should it be so much better if I may ask?

[*Rage*]

.....SARH missiles in particular have been effectively useless for several months now.

 

Several years now:) First bug report submitted to ED March 2013 regarding abysmal SARH guidance.

[Schmidtfire]

Look at the facts. The F-15 has never been shot down in air-air combat. A lot of the F-15s impressive record has been due to the AIM-7M Sparrow. It's an Air Superiority Fighter that sweeps MiG-29s out of the sky, that is a fact if you look at combat records and this was before the Amraam. Sure, better training, better ecm, situational awareness, tactics etc. make a difference. But I shouldn't feel close to helpless flying around with an AIM-7 load in MP vs Flankers or Mig29s. The Flanker has faced the Mig29 a number of times and the only missiles that has sort of performed is the R60 or R73. I don't say that the Eagle should be unbeatable, but either the R-27s are way overperforming or AIM-7M is underperforming. Probably a mixture of both.

[QuiGon]

Look at the facts. The F-15 has never been shot down in air-air combat. A lot of the F-15s impressive record has been due to the AIM-7M Sparrow. It's an Air Superiority Fighter that sweeps MiG-29s out of the sky, that is a fact if you look at combat records and this was before the Amraam. Sure, better training, better ecm, situational awareness, tactics etc. make a difference. But I shouldn't feel close to helpless flying around with an AIM-7 load in MP vs Flankers or Mig29s. The Flanker has faced the Mig29 a number of times and the only missiles that has sort of performed is the R60 or R73. I don't say that the Eagle should be unbeatable, but either the R-27s are way overperforming or AIM-7M is underperforming. Probably a mixture of both.

 

I showed you the performance of the AIM-7 in the Gulf War, which wasn't all that good and that was against inferior iraqi aircraft. All the combat achievements of the F-15 were against inferior aircraft, often in an environment of total air superiority and support assets like AWACS. It wouldn't perform as good against much more capable russian aircraft with better weapons (and better training) like in DCS.

[Reflected]

Missile performance in general is abysmal. I don't own any red planes, but I imagine it's the same on that side too.

[wilky510]

The problem in MP is, that nobody flies the Eagle. Everybody flies an amraam launching platform.

Oh yeah, you're totally right, i totally fly the Eagle just for the AMRAAMs and not the Eagle itself, you've caught on why every flies the Eagle now!! They're just skill-less SPAMRAAM players looking to beat up on the poor skillful Russian players who only have their SARH missiles!

 

Or maybe they just like the Eagle?...

 

The Red side flyers on these forums sometimes...

[fixen]

I personally find that seeker performance of sarh missiles is not that bad, especially when I compare my stats with real life figures.

I think a lot of people fire the missiles in very bad conditions for a shot. That means just within max range, or on a target that is almost flying in a notch, etc.

In real life the missiles where usually fired at short(er) range because of IFF. Even then they still missed a lot as showed by statistics displayed earlier in this thread.

[blkspade]

I showed you the performance of the AIM-7 in the Gulf War, which wasn't all that good and that was against inferior iraqi aircraft. All the combat achievements of the F-15 were against inferior aircraft, often in an environment of total air superiority and support assets like AWACS. It wouldn't perform as good against much more capable russian aircraft with better weapons (and better training) like in DCS.

 

As far as Iraq goes, they were primarily flying Mig29As and Mirages, with battle tested pilots. Those aren't exactly all that inferior. The mig were considered to be huge threats WVR.

[Drona]

The mig were considered to be huge threats WVR.

 

Problem is, the MiG never got to WVR!!!

[fixen]

Interesting read: https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/air-to-air-weapons-effectiveness/

[QuiGon]

As far as Iraq goes, they were primarily flying Mig29As and Mirages, with battle tested pilots. Those aren't exactly all that inferior. The mig were considered to be huge threats WVR.

 

Yes, WVR, but he was especially talking about the AIM-7, usally meaning BVR and the Iraqis lacked up-to-date BVR missiles and AFAIK only had the export variant of the MiG-29 with inferior radar.

[mattebubben]

The thing with the Gulf war is that the Coalition fighters had a very Significant advantage in situational awareness that came from AWACS.

 

Coalition pilots were told where an enemy was airborne what it was etc so they had a easy time to intercept and often to intercept in a way so they came in at an Advantageous angle.

 

In the Gulf war 5 Mig-29s were shot down by F-15s with no F-15 shot down in return.

 

But thats not because the Aim-7 is great and the R-27R was bad... (they were pretty Comparable)

 

There are many reasons why the F-15s "Won" over Mig-29s in The Gulf war but those reasons are more complicated then simply the F-15 is better and the Aim-7 is better...

 

Things Like The Pilot Skill/Training is very important as is what kind of support each side has in terms of Awacs or GCI assistance as well as the condition of the Aircraft and pilots and also morale etc all play just as much of a part in air combat as how the two aircraft compare.

 

In the Gulf war the Iraqi Aircraft were outnumbered and they had nowhere to hide as the Coalition forces had constant Awacs support so if any Iraqi Fighters launched anywhere the Coalition forces would know and launch fighters to intercept (in superior numbers)

where as Alot of the Iraqi Radar stations etc were destroyed during the first night so they would have a very unclear picture of where the enemies were.

 

And even if the Iraqi Pilots were Veterans they might not have been as well trained as the Coalition pilots were (or Russian pilots would have been) when it came to air-combat tactics.

 

Since Experience is not always superior to better Training / Tactics.

Edited May 18, 2016 by mattebubben

[QuiGon]

Interesting read: https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/air-to-air-weapons-effectiveness/

And the original source: http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf

 

The thing with the Gulf war is that the Coalition fighters had a very Significant advantage in situational awareness that came from AWACS.

 

Coalition pilots were told where an enemy was airborne what it was etc so they had a easy time to intercept and often to intercept in a way so they can in at an Advantageous angle.

 

In the Gulf war 5 Mig-29s were shot down by F-15s with no F-15 shot down in return.

 

But thats not because the Aim-7 is great and the R-27R was bad... (they were pretty Comparable)

 

There are many reasons why the F-15s "Won" over Mig-29s in The Gulf war but those reasons are more complicated then simply the F-15 is better and the Aim-7 is better...

 

Things Like The Pilot Skill/Training is very important as is what kind of support each side has in terms of Awacs or GCI assistance as well as the condition of the Aircraft and pilots and also morale etc all play just as much of a part in air combat as how the two aircraft compare.

 

In the Gulf war the Iraqi Aircraft were outnumbered and they had nowhere to hide as the Coalition forces had constant Awacs support so if any Iraqi Fighters launched anywhere the Coalition forces would know and launch fighters to intercept (in superior numbers)

where as Alot of the Iraqi Radar stations etc were destroyed during the first night so they would have a very unclear picture of where the enemies were.

 

And even if the Iraqi Pilots were Veterans they might not have been as well trained as the Coalition pilots were (or Russian pilots would have been)

 

Since Experience is not always superior to better Training / Tactics.

 

This!

[probad]

just another monthly subjective "why wont my favorite aircraft fulfill my i-win button fantasies" thread

 

move along folks

[Nooch]

It's time to wake up and realize that what you can imagine doesn't have anything to do with reality. So unless you have flown real F-15s, please don't start a thread like that.

 

just another monthly subjective "why wont my favorite aircraft fulfill my i-win button fantasies" thread

 

move along folks

 

Basically.

[apocom]

Oh yeah, you're totally right, i totally fly the Eagle just for the AMRAAMs and not the Eagle itself, you've caught on why every flies the Eagle now!! They're just skill-less SPAMRAAM players looking to beat up on the poor skillful Russian players who only have their SARH missiles!

 

Or maybe they just like the Eagle?...

 

The Red side flyers on these forums sometimes...

 

I'm not a red side flyer.

 

The F15 is a real powerhouse, but everytime I fly OP Bison on the 104th I hear a lot of complaints about this bad mission. And it's not because blue pilots are worse, imo it's because blue pilots are not used to fly the F15 to it's strength rather than the amraam.

 

I mean I understand this. When the amraam is available I go for 8 C's. But imo this doesn't teach me the aircraft.

 

Everyone should simply fly what is fun for him/her, but besides the problems in this game that are artifical because of the way they are implemented, I have never read something that would make me belive that SARH's are better IRL than in this game (besides maybe the drag).

[blkspade]

Problem is, the MiG never got to WVR!!!

 

Not according to to USAF pilot accounts.

[Sweep]

Problem is, the MiG never got to WVR!!!

 

They did multiple times.

 

And lost...

 

I've been flying a bit with an AIM-7M loadout. For me, this is the weapon most associated with the F-15C Air Superiority Fighter. Is it really this bad in real life? AIM-7's been used to gain a LOT of air-to-air victories during the Gulf war, but I cant't help to wonder how that did happen when I fly DCS... In close it can sort of be lethal, but a manouvering target in BVR is hopeless in DCS. Seems wrong that both the Flanker and MiG-29 can outperform the F-15C Eagle with R-27ER and ET's. I know that they are extended range, but it dosen't seem right that the Eagle is so outclassed without Amraams...

 

It won IRL through tactics and training...It was a bit of a superior aircraft to most of what it fought, though. :)

 

AIM-7M vs R-27ER/ET in-game: Get some wingmen and drag the bandits around...Get as close as you can without being engaged.

 

Also, if you can catch a Flanker with a full load and some speed, make him maneuver...Maybe he'll break his wings off. I've had that happen in quite a few merges now where the bandit decides to 10g "break turn" into me or a missile...And breaks his jet instead! :D

[Schmidtfire]

I mostly fly the MiG-29, this is not a biased discussion of "my favourite plane the F-15C is missing a feature". Im just having a hard time to belive that non-amraam F-15s would take

R-27s to the face all day long. I've read several articles about the MiG-29. Pilots conclude that within visual range MiG-29 is a real threat due to the R-73 with helmet cueing.

However, performance BVR is not nearly as good as the modern american fighters such as the F-15. SA and information in general is also lower and still depends a lot on a working GCI system. I would love to see more Sparrows and less spamraams in mp, but It won't happen when the SARH is just as good if not better with the 27ER.