[Not A Bug] F-86F Skins Wrecked by Updates

[Pitot]

I dont see you questioning ED for integrating a new MiG-29A 3D Model that renders every Livery on the User Files Section In-Compatible....

 

Burned that guy so hard with this comment...

Seriously tho, this is a thread to be cleansed and locked. I don't want this popping out in my unread list.

[shagrat]

It's an abundantly logical thing to do. The benefits don't really require explanation. And it wouldn't require months either. The template obviously exists already, how does the developer create their own skins? It's just a simple question of deciding, Are these numbers going to be part of the template or not? And just sticking with that decision.

Why add the numbers two years after the product launched and all the skins already have them? That makes no sense unless the goal was to deliberately wreck the work of all the skin makers.

First of all, there was NO official template from the developers, so they are not responsible, whatever your wish.

 

Second, it is the logical thing to release an official template when all changes to the model and textures are finished.

 

Even then DCS unlike other sims is getting updates to the game engine frequently and that could mean a template needs to be adjusted.

 

The numbers are part of the sims bort number system and allow mission designers to use squadron skins with individual bort numbers. So yes, this is important to fully integrate the F-86 into the mission editors capabilities.

 

And there's only 99 more skins to fix. So it's not simple. And it's not just me that has to fix them, it's thousands of players.

Still there is currently only ONE guy complaining and claiming "thousands" now need to update their unofficial templates.

Actually the guys who made them could fix them?

[SharpeXB]

The numbers are part of the sims bort number system and allow mission designers to use squadron skins with individual bort numbers. So yes, this is important to fully integrate the F-86 into the mission editors capabilities.

So why wasn't this incorporated into the skin system two years ago when the plane was release instead of now after all the skins have been created?

 

And no, skin authors don't tend to fix their work and keep updating it. Just look at the User Files sections, many of the skins for these various aircraft were made years ago and haven't ever been updated.

 

The reason you don't see more people complaining is probably the average player doesn't bother with getting the user-made skins due to all this type of difficulty. And only about 1% of any game owner ever posts on a forum like this.

Edited July 10, 2016 by SharpeXB

[shagrat]

So why wasn't this incorporated into the skin system two years ago when the plane was release instead of now after all the skins have been created?

 

And no, skin authors don't tend to fix their work and keep updating it. Just look at the User Files sections, many of the skins for these various aircraft were made years ago and haven't ever been updated.

 

Ask the guy who made the unofficial skin template? Maybe he didn't know how it works? Maybe he thought it too complicate?

 

Right, people tend not to care much about their skins, as it is a hobby, for them.

If you get yourself a free nice phone cover for your iphoneX and Apple makes a new iphoneY do you really believe Apple is responsible to get your cover to work with the new model? Or even that they HAVE to keep the design, buttons and size forever, so you can use your nice free covers?

I'm not saying there is no problem with the skins, just you are barking up the wrong tree...

 

Skatezilla had very good point with the MiG-29A, by the way...

[SkateZilla]

So why wasn't this incorporated into the skin system two years ago when the plane was release instead of now after all the skins have been created?

 

And no, skin authors don't tend to fix their work and keep updating it. Just look at the User Files sections, many of the skins for these various aircraft were made years ago and haven't ever been updated.

 

The reason you don't see more people complaining is probably the average player doesn't bother with getting the user-made skins due to all this type of difficulty. And only about 1% of any game owner ever posts on a forum like this.

 

I dont think you understand the amount of changes the F-86 Model went through in the 2 years it was early access, The Nose Numbers arent a Change in the UVW Texture Templates, It's an addition, which requires LUA's to be updated.

 

The Material names for the tail borts changes at least 4 times during the Early Access Period, causing the same issue you are seeing w/ the Nose Borts.

 

Even if the Nose Borts were removed, you'd still have to edit the Material Names for the Fuselage Tail and Vertical Tail BORTs to remove the problems there as well.

 

if Mod creators dont want to update their mods, that's not on ED or BST, it's the Original Author's Responsibility.

[SkateZilla]

Ask the guy who made the unofficial skin template? Maybe he didn't know how it works? Maybe he thought it too complicate?

 

Right, people tend not to care much about their skins, as it is a hobby, for them.

If you get yourself a free nice phone cover for your iphoneX and Apple makes a new iphoneY do you really believe Apple is responsible to get your cover to work with the new model? Or even that they HAVE to keep the design, buttons and size forever, so you can use your nice free covers?

I'm not saying there is no problem with the skins, just you are barking up the wrong tree...

 

Skatezilla had very good point with the MiG-29A, by the way...

 

 

I Created and Maintain the PSD Files for the Unofficial templates,

I Update them whenever the UVW Coordinates were updated,

 

Nose Borts, are an Addition to the model, not the template.

 

Like I said, the Guide for Updating the LUA Files (which have nothing to do w/ the Template BTW), is Here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2818080&postcount=116

 

Takes less than a minute to update a livery

 

 

The Thread for the UNOFFICIAL Template is here,with change logs for every version I updated it with, the 3rd Line in the 1st Post Literally tells the authors things will change.

 

I Merely stepped in to provide a template, I dont see anyone else taking the HOURS to dump UVW Coordinates and then sorting through them, let alone making an entire usable template out of merely 2 texture files.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128647

[shagrat]

I Created and Maintain the PSD Files for the Unofficial templates,

I Update them whenever the UVW Coordinates were updated,

 

Nose Borts, are an Addition to the model, not the template.

 

Like I said, the Guide for Updating the LUA Files (which have nothing to do w/ the Template BTW), is Here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2818080&postcount=116

 

Takes less than a minute to update a livery

 

 

The Thread for the UNOFFICIAL Template is here,with change logs for every version I updated it with, the 3rd Line in the 1st Post Literally tells the authors things will change.

 

I Merely stepped in to provide a template, I dont see anyone else taking the HOURS to dump UVW Coordinates and then sorting through them, let alone making an entire usable template out of merely 2 texture files.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128647

^This!

 

A favor to the community, lot of hours invested and help provided...

...and a guy still complaining! I don't get it. :dunno:

[Pitot]

However, this might be a glitch with vanilla skins on Mig23MLD. Not gonna post a thread, don't have time to check it on all vanilla skins for it ATM. If someone can check and multiple people confirm, then we'll make a bug report.

 

 

[SkateZilla]

That's a issue w/ Texture Clipping on that specific model, nothing to do w/ F-86F.

[SharpeXB]

Takes less than a minute to update a livery

I know you're helping and I appreciate that. But you have to qualify that statement above with

"For people familiar with creating skins"

 

It took me about an hour to decipher what all that above meant. If somebody has no experience then those instructions aren't quite clear enough. You gotta dumb it down...

 

Terminology like MAIN Channel 2? What's that? I eventually figured it out but see how cryptic that is?

 

This I couldn't quite follow:

Step 5:

For Borts You want to be visible, delete or REM (using -- ) the channel 3 Lines for each section. (REM'd Lines will turn GREEN)

 

I eventually figured what this means is just delete the third line for BORTS you want to remain visible, which is none since all the skins already have them.

 

You guys are assuming every player is a computer programmer. This stuff is too confusing for most players. And once again, now every person who owns the module and who wants the skins to work has to do this for every single skin. So it's not "easy" or "quick"

That's 95 skins x the number of owners x 1 minute = ? ... Just saying. :doh:

[Pitot]

That's a issue w/ Texture Clipping on that specific model, nothing to do w/ F-86F.

 

No, no, never ment to say it has anything to do with F86, just didn't want to open a new thread before checking if ED knows about it. This seemed like a good place. :D

[drPhibes]

I know you're helping and I appreciate that. But you have to qualify that statement above with

"For people familiar with creating skins"

 

It took me about an hour to decipher what all that above meant. If somebody has no experience then those instructions aren't quite clear enough. You gotta dumb it down...

 

 

DCS players are obviously a mixed abilities group. Skatezilla's guide tells you what to do, step by step. If you can't follow that, stick with the official liveries provided with the plane.

Edited July 11, 2016 by drPhibes

[Art-J]

Truth to be told, even fuselage markings on the default textures for P-51D, official template and whatnot, got messed up after release of 1.5. Not fixed since then by the game devs themselves, so custom F-86 painters working on unofficial template still react and adjust faster than ED :D.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Art-J

[SharpeXB]

DCS players are obviously a mixed abilities group. Skatezilla's guide tells you what to do, step by step. If you can't follow that, stick with the official liveries provided with the plane.

The guide is easy enough to follow, it just takes an incredible amount of time to do all of them.

[monkie]

Don't underestimate the power of user skins to sell a product. If it weren't for the USAF Southeast Asia skin I would have never picked up the 86.

 

I don't have the time to try to get Nick's SEA skins working again.

[Home Fries]

Is it just me, or is the main decal no longer working, e.g.

    {"F86_MAIN", DECAL ,"F-86F_DECAL",true};

I just went in to update my FJ-3 line of skins, and I can't get it to show up. While the decal line is still in the default description.lua files and the f-86f.zip texture file, I noticed that the decal content has now been moved to the DIF layer of the default textures.

 

Any chance of getting the old main decal back? This was a very nice convention for numbering wings and providing nose art, and it's absence burns my entire line of FJ-3s.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Home Fries

[SkateZilla]

Decal Layer for the entire map was removed AFAIK,

 

Only the Bort Meshes have the Decal Layer, the Body Decals (Roundels etc) are now painted onto the surface and can either share specular properties, or be made separate using overlays in the specular channels.

[crazyeddie]

I despair of this Mod, every time I redo my skins they change it AGAIN. God only knows how many times it is now, more than I care to remember, and it always seems to take forever to correct things because they make it so damn complicated.

 

Whoever suggested recently that they abandon the Bort numbers completely had it right.

 

No Mod is worth all that effort.

[Art-J]

Decal Layer for the entire map was removed AFAIK,

 

Only the Bort Meshes have the Decal Layer, the Body Decals (Roundels etc) are now painted onto the surface and can either share specular properties, or be made separate using overlays in the specular channels.

 

Not being a skin maker, I haven't understood anything in this post :D, but is this the reason why even default USAF skins by Belsimtek have somewhat broken bort and serial numbers now (some being semi-transparent)?

[Home Fries]

Decal Layer for the entire map was removed AFAIK,

 

Only the Bort Meshes have the Decal Layer, the Body Decals (Roundels etc) are now painted onto the surface and can either share specular properties, or be made separate using overlays in the specular channels.

Damn. Not what I was hoping to hear, but thanks for the quick reply, Skate.

 

I'll just shelve these until they put it back in (if they put it back in).

 

I've gotta say, I miss the Strike Fighters way of doing decals. Being able to place and orient your own decals via ini file was awesome. Having tiered decals (e.g. national, squadron, individual aircraft) was clean and convenient as well.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Home Fries

[SkateZilla]

I'll ask to make sure it's not a bug, but I havent been able to put a decal layer over the main texture either.

[Home Fries]

I'll ask to make sure it's not a bug, but I havent been able to put a decal layer over the main texture either.

Thanks, Skate. I eagerly await their reply.

[SkateZilla]

Not sure but a 4096^2 DXT1 might be smaller in size than a 4096^2 DXT5 DDS.

 

So while it's easy to use the same base texture and just make a new Decal Texture,

 

it might be more file size w/ multiple decal textures and sharing the same diffuse, vs just having multiple diffuse.

 

I'm gonna have to give this a look, as I would assume DXT5 would be larger file, especially w/ MipMaps, due to added 8bpp interpolated alpha layer for transparency..

 

Edit: or about the same size,

(just tested, a Decals only export was the exact same size as a DXT1 of the diffuse layer)

 

Even then, 1 Livery will be 2x 20+MB DDS Files, when combined it would only be one.

 

So a 5pack would be 6 DDS Files (1 Diffuse, 5 Decals), when it can simply be 5 Diffuse Layers and save space.

 

It's also easier to control the Specular Channel of the main Material w/ Decals integrated into both Diffuse and Specular.

[Home Fries]

Not sure but a 4096^2 DXT1 might be smaller in size than a 4096^2 DXT5 DDS.

 

So while it's easy to use the same base texture and just make a new Decal Texture,

 

it might be more file size w/ multiple decal textures and sharing the same diffuse, vs just having multiple diffuse.

 

I'm gonna have to give this a look, as I would assume DXT5 would be larger file, especially w/ MipMaps, due to added 8bpp interpolated alpha layer for transparency..

 

Edit: or about the same size,

(just tested, a Decals only export was the exact same size as a DXT1 of the diffuse layer)

 

Even then, 1 Livery will be 2x 20+MB DDS Files, when combined it would only be one.

 

So a 5pack would be 6 DDS Files (1 Diffuse, 5 Decals), when it can simply be 5 Diffuse Layers and save space.

 

It's also easier to control the Specular Channel of the main Material w/ Decals integrated into both Diffuse and Specular.

I agree with the above regarding file sizes, but for the USN FJ-3 I use the decal layer for the modex on the fuselage, wing, and tail. I actually reduced the size of these files from a 4096 to 2048 DXT3 without appreciable degradation in quality (you would have to be flying very close formation to see the difference). The idea is that you can have a skin for each aircraft in a squadron with one base skin. I also made the decals modular, so they can be used by other FJ-3 skins, all of which keeps the footprint size down (and perhaps RAM, depending on how it is utilized for textures in DCS).

[SkateZilla]

For the Fury I just Use the Nose Borts, tail Borts, but the Wing/Flap/Nose Gear Door, etc I'm prolly gonna just put a place holder stencil in place of the AC Number.

Only so much we can do w/ Mockups, as the F-86F Shape is a bit different from the Fury Shape.

 

But yeah, I see what you did.