1 Su-27 vs 2 F-15 BVR

[B_Tank88]

Just for some practise I'm trying this scenario, vs 2 excellent AI. My aim is to try level the playing field by just trying to kill one at least as soon as possible, but I'm actually really struggling to bring even one of them down. I can fire over 4-5 long range missiles at him but they will all miss.

 

I seem to win 1v1's all the time in the same scenario and can kill the bandit in max 3 missiles but seems much more difficult when outnumbered.

 

Any advice?

Tacview-20161207-224524-DCS.txt.zip

[Bimbac]

Yes.

 

Do not engage 2 F-15s in single Su-27. Just run. Chances to win such fight are extremely low. If you want to beat them, bring at least 3 additional Flankers split into 2 elements, then and only then you would level the playing field.

[TheFurNinja]

2v2 works fine imho, especially with ECM. But as Bimbac said you should bring friends, as really nobody should be putting themselves in a 2:1 fight voluntarily. I must commend you for your bravery though.

[mrsteel]

If you're feeling brave, and have an awacs up, use your datalink, slip around them if possible, and smack em with a 27et from the side or behind, that'd be your best bet if you absolutely had to fight, use the terrain to your advantage when trying to slip around too. Never try to face 2 of them head on though.

[probad]

this is like crying about getting mowed down frontally rushing a mg nest. i dont know why you'd want to set up this kind of fight, this is a bad situation you'd never want to be in in the first place and you should focus more efforts on avoiding this sort of scenario.

 

i'd recommend taking a hint from the su-27's reporting name and revising how you set up the fight. it's plain how ridiculous it is to run at someone's gunbarrel on foot -- similarly it's ridiculous to actively seek the joust in the air when you can avoid it.

Edited December 8, 2016 by probad

[TheFurNinja]

this is like crying about getting mowed down frontally rushing a mg nest. i dont know why you'd want to set up this kind of fight, this is a bad situation you'd never want to be in in the first place and you should focus more efforts on avoiding this sort of scenario.

 

i'd recommend taking a hint from the su-27's reporting name and revising how you set up the fight. it's plain how ridiculous it is to run at someone's gunbarrel on foot -- similarly it's ridiculous to actively seek the joust in the air when you can avoid it.

 

It is still vitally important to practice jousting. Because there always will be times you cannot hide or take the "sneaky" route due to air defenses, EW/AWACS systems, or have been previously spotted. It will only become more important as missiles get their FMs fixed and the ranges (and thus kill ranges) extend.

 

I dont need to be the person to tell you that in the modern environment there are not many places to hide and to boot if you are in enemy territory the ground is covered in air defense. You can only really ambush in your own airspace. But with everything there is a time and a place for every tactic.

 

And this one calls for such guerilla tactics if possible. ANY 2:1 fight is likely to go bad for the latter force. So either fight 1:1, dont enagage, or work in your own airspace and ambush/split enemy assests

Edited December 8, 2016 by TheFurNinja

[Frostie]

Shooting down the AI is one thing, much easier than going against a co-ordinated 2 ship of human players.

 

Open up the separation from the furthest bandit away from you some more by forcing him defensive while you crank opposite of him. The other AI will press on you leaving a 1v1 situation. Not easy but against AI good practice.

Su27 v 2 F15.txt.rar

[Oceandar]

Gents, he said it was vs AI's. From my experience its actually possible. Unlike human opponents, the AI tactics and behaviors are predictable.The key is you want to make one defensive, for example gain more altitude (higher than AI) just shoot one ER followed by ET and wait few seconds, drop the lock and evade the incoming Amraam. As the leader is in defensive, target and shoot the second one aggressively. Maintain your SA. Once the wingman is down. Get the first one quickly.

I've done it few times in Open Conflict (with AWACS support) and BF (without GCI support) server against 2 F-16's with this kind of tactics successfully.

 

Good luck

Edited December 8, 2016 by Oceandar

[Mamba]

Launch overriding ETs (from the contrails) can work well against human players , and I think the AI now doesn't recognize bvr ir launches. Often if they're burning (which they should be) you won't even need to LA as the missile will already see them.

[Stuge]

ET shots from max range might do the trick here.. against both AI and human opponents :)

[20thBG_Blackwolf]

Even with the ET's I try to avoid Bvr with the Eagles. Stay low and make them fight your fight..don't fight theirs.

[inSky_1911CFZS]

Neither the Su-27 nor any Soviet/Russian fighters at that time was designed to fight 1vs1 against an F-15. It is just not up to it since the eagle has got AMRAAM advantage. However, the Flankers are meant to fight in group. More aircraft(eg.4vs4,6vs6) , more terrain and the flankers get more advantage.Its different kind of missiles, crazy amount of internal fuel and the EOS system open many possibilities in a group match. Use your range advantage of the ER to force the enemy to go defensive, or at least let them forcus on you, and tell your wingmen to go terrain-masking and let him score a kill using ETs. So as I stated above fighting in the Su-27 means you must teamwork. You can look for some ACMI of SATAC to study how 51st PVO Regiment flying the Flankers in group against Eagles.

[probad]

fighting as a group is a valid and advisable strategy no matter what aircraft you fly smh

[Ragnarok]

don't try against terminator :D

 

opponents of equal power

Tacview-20161225-004520-DCS.txt.rar

[PeaceSells]

Use your range advantage of the ER to force the enemy to go defensive, or at least let them forcus on you, and tell your wingmen to go terrain-masking and let him score a kill using ETs.

 

 

Are you sure that the ER's have more range? I was doing some testing a few weeks ago and, for the same altitude and speed, I could fire an ER at almost 40 km (head on) and an AIM-120 at about 50 km (head on). Both were fired as soon as launch authorization was achieved. Am I doing something wrong with the ER's?

[Chrinik]

Are you sure that the ER's have more range? I was doing some testing a few weeks ago and, for the same altitude and speed, I could fire an ER at almost 40 km (head on) and an AIM-120 at about 50 km (head on). Both were fired as soon as launch authorization was achieved. Am I doing something wrong with the ER's?

 

The ER will fly a longer distance in a shorter time. So you should crank to deny the enemy a full range shot anyway.

[Tello]

Never run from a challenge! Die Trying ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrepe-js0DI

 

Yes.

 

Do not engage 2 F-15s in single Su-27. Just run. Chances to win such fight are extremely low. If you want to beat them, bring at least 3 additional Flankers split into 2 elements, then and only then you would level the playing field.

[PeaceSells]

The ER will fly a longer distance in a shorter time. So you should crank to deny the enemy a full range shot anyway.

 

So I understand that the ER could reach the target faster, but still the AIM-120 will be launched first, right? On the other hand, the AIM-120 won't give a launch warning until pitbull, so the ER might put the enemy in defensive sooner due to giving the launch warning first, would that be the real advantage of the ER?

[Bushmanni]

Kinematically R-27ER has about identical range to AIM-120C at sea level but about 50% greater range at 40 000 feet (about 12km). With range I mean the range where the target can't dodge the missile with maneuvers (at low altitude you can force the missile to hit the ground but that's another story). Launch authorization determined by computer might behave differently but you shouldn't pay attention to it as it's not accurate.

[TAW_Blaze]

In any outnumbered scenario you want to create small engagements by buying time before certain parts of an enemy force can fight you. This works against anything, be it AI or human opponents. How much time you can get is usually a matter of enemy displacement and coordination. The general concept is that you just offset to the more optimal direction (this takes experience and good awareness to judge). If you're still left with a close formation of enemies you need to think of something on top of this.

[PeaceSells]

Launch authorization determined by computer might behave differently but you shouldn't pay attention to it as it's not accurate.

 

If you don't pay attentio to launch authorization, how do you know when to fire the ER, since the range varies greatly with your altitude, target's altitude, your bearing, target's bearing, your speed, and target's speed?

[Sweep]

If you don't pay attentio to launch authorization, how do you know when to fire the ER, since the range varies greatly with your altitude, target's altitude, your bearing, target's bearing, your speed, and target's speed?

 

Create your own dynamic launch zone (DLZ) in your mind.

 

The default launch zones tend to be more about low-chance of hit (Probability of Hit/Ph) shots more than high chance of hit stuff. So a 25 mile AMRAAM max range cue is just about worthless considering the missile is only "effective" against a maneuvering target out to about 8 miles (in most conditions). Same goes for every AAM in game.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Sweep
explained a bit...

[Bushmanni]

If you don't pay attentio to launch authorization, how do you know when to fire the ER, since the range varies greatly with your altitude, target's altitude, your bearing, target's bearing, your speed, and target's speed?

 

As Sweep said, you do it in your head as every pro driver in DCS does. Having this capability in hand gives you also the ability to judge enemy missile hit capability which the computer doesn't tell you anything but that is 50% of the necessary information you need to determine when to launch. Sometimes (when you are in a inferior position) you need to launch to force the enemy to maneuver and lose SA and energy beacuse if you go for the kill shot the enemy missile gets you. The closer to getting killed you launch your own weapon, the more problems you create for the enemy and with luck you can turn the tables.

[PeaceSells]

@Sweep and @Bushmanni:

 

What you are both saying makes sense, see if I understand this right: if you ignore the computer launch cues and fire according to your own DLZ in your head to maximize PK, you will fire the ER at a greater range then the AIM-120, despite the computer cue for the ER are at shorter range than the one for the AIM-120?

 

I don't know if I'm hijacking this thread, but I guess this issue is very relevant to the OP's question...

[Capn kamikaze]

this is like crying about getting mowed down frontally rushing a mg nest. i dont know why you'd want to set up this kind of fight

 

Simple, to learn to deal with it if you have no other option.