R-27ER Experiment & Findings

[*Rage*]

Ironhand, can you post a video to youtube of the tacview like Rage did? Maybe even some commentary and analysis once you are done checking? Rage's video is from over a year ago, it would perhaps go a long way towards showing that the issue sill exists, and is reproducible.

 

Mission track here:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2553045&postcount=1

 

Re-run to your hearts content.

[jackmckay]

Let me add you my perspective of how things should work regarding SARH missiles and countermeasures stacking mechanism.

 

In general, having main launch platform onboard radar as missile guiding device using DataLink communication for sending missile guiding instruction data is rock solid solution for target tracking system. The only two ways to deflect missile is missile guidance jamming using ECM or main radar chaff overcluttering. ECM is still in state of questionable functionality and has no or little viable purpose in DCS even it has vital defensive role in case of SARH missile engagement.

 

Referring to target lock acquisition, airborne radar is relatively safe solution for target lock and guidance role for its size and energy available but is naturally prone to RCS confusion. This chaff confusion mechanism is meant to work in that way that every chaff cloud should have its relative RCS and according to chaff cloud overlapping instances along radar beam line countermeasure should be more or less effective. In general this is pure geometrical issue since chaff cloud is spherical object with fixed RCS that looses RCS density by growing in time while it gradually falls from a sky. That means that no host radar should ever lock to single chaff cloud dropped in a line perpendicular to guiding radar beam thus misguiding SARH missile to that object because of single chaff cloud low RCS. This happens regularly in DCS. That could only be true in case of IR missiles and flare as one has higher temperature than non after burning nozzle so its logical for IR missile to follow that countermeasure.

 

In SARH and ARH missile cases chaff cloud stacked along radar beam line should create enough RCS to make homing radar mislead by overcluttering or sticking to fake RCS reflection. Thats how things should work. In DCS countermeasures are still in flare only mode regarding of missile guidance and behavior type.

[apocom]

In general, having main launch platform onboard radar as missile guiding device using DataLink communication for sending missile guiding instruction data is rock solid solution for target tracking system. The only two ways to deflect missile is missile guidance jamming using ECM or main radar chaff overcluttering. ECM is still in state of questionable functionality and has no or little viable purpose in DCS even it has vital defensive role in case of SARH missile engagement.

 

Besides the problem that chaff is like flare for radar guided missiles, you have forgotten that every missile needs a seeker, because the INS isn't working perfectly. In DCS this error isn't modelled which has the interesting side effect, that the 120 would be a better missile without seeker.

[DarkFire]

Seems the thread got derailed, again. Weren't we talking about the guidance and CM rejection issues?

 

I have a question. Do all the SARH missiles share the same variable in the code that affects the chance of chaff rejection, or is it unique to each missile or rather guidance system?

 

All SARH missiles use the same algorithm, though the individual numbers seem to vary per missile, if that makes sense.

[Ironhand]

Ironhand, can you post a video to youtube of the tacview...

Sure. I was working on a tutorial and now that it's published, I'll work on this. I'll need to revise the scenario first. I realized in reviewing the track a 2nd time that 2 aircraft collided 2 seconds after launching their missiles. So that makes any calculations off by 7% right out of the starting gate.

 

Anyway, I'll refly it and start collecting data again.

 

In the meantime, take a look at Rage's track and see what what interesting things you can find

Edited March 20, 2017 by Ironhand

[Vatikus]

If someone is interested how real life R-27R1 works, there is a great reading material explaining exact guidance, etc. in the following book:

[Fri13]

If someone is interested how real life R-27R1 works, there is a great reading material explaining exact guidance, etc. in the following book:

 

and from where youcan get that? likely there isnt english copy?

[IASGATG]

An English copy of the MiG-29 pilots handbook? Probably not.

[Seaeagle]

On the cover it says: "МиГ-29Б" and "СУВ-29Э" (MiG-29B and SUV-29E).

 

Since it concerns the export version of the MiG-29, its WCS and missile(R-27R1), the possibility of there being an english version is not completely inconceivable.

[Marcast]

An English copy of the MiG-29 pilots handbook? Probably not.

 

:megalol:

[Esac_mirmidon]

There is a Mig-29G manual in english available. ( German version of the Mig-29A )

[JunMcKill]

If someone is interested how real life R-27R1 works, there is a great reading material explaining exact guidance, etc. in the following book:

 

Do you have the link of the MIG-29B russian manual?

 

I have the PDF of the MIG-29G in English and SU-27SK in russian.

[Ironhand]

Do you have the link of the MIG-29B russian manual?

 

I have the PDF of the MIG-29G in English and SU-27SK in russian.

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/?arrFilter_pf%5Bfiletype%5D=41&arrFilter_pf%5Bgameversion%5D=&arrFilter_pf%5Bfilelang%5D=&arrFilter_pf%5Baircraft%5D=21&arrFilter_DATE_CREATE_1_DAYS_TO_BACK=&CREATED_BY=&sort_by_order=TIMESTAMP_X_DESC&LICENCE_FREE=yes&set_filter=Filter

 

Top one. You'll need to install WinDjView to read it. It's a series of images. (So translation services like Google won't help.) I think I got the viewer from Soundforge. Not sure.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Ironhand

[Vatikus]

Thx Ironhand for giving the link... I got it elsewhere, but it's the same, yes.

[JunMcKill]

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/?arrFilter_pf%5Bfiletype%5D=41&arrFilter_pf%5Bgameversion%5D=&arrFilter_pf%5Bfilelang%5D=&arrFilter_pf%5Baircraft%5D=21&arrFilter_DATE_CREATE_1_DAYS_TO_BACK=&CREATED_BY=&sort_by_order=TIMESTAMP_X_DESC&LICENCE_FREE=yes&set_filter=Filter

 

Top one. You'll need to install WinDjView to read it. It's a series of images. (So translation services like Google won't help.) I think I got the viewer from Soundforge. Not sure.

 

WOW thanks, added to my collection! :D I can read russian!

[Seaeagle]

There is a Mig-29G manual in english available. ( German version of the Mig-29A )

 

Yes but that does not include anything on the combat systems, while the one Vatikus linked to seems to concern this aspect specifically.

[Falcon_S]

Any progress about ER`s? ;)

 

Meanwhile i see MATRA corporation DO MAGIC :doh:

[myHelljumper]

Any progress about ER`s? ;)

 

Meanwhile i see MATRA corporation DO MAGIC :doh:

 

The super 530D is capable of doing mach 4.5 so it is not magic, it is realistic performances ;).

[Falcon_S]

Do you know why in DCS no any MAGIC from Russian side?

[Sweep]

Do you know why in DCS no any MAGIC from Russian side?

 

Because the R-27ER suffers from ED.

[GGTharos]

More information please.

 

What was the launch speed and altitude?

 

How much G was it pulling?

 

What was the flight time?

 

 

I'd love to test all of this myself, but I don't have time.

 

 

These questions lead to the following:

 

a) The missile should NOT reach M4.5 from an M1 launch. Period :)

b) The missile should be losing a lot of speed in high-g turns. Period :)

 

If a) is incorrect, the rocket motor is too powerful OR it is using the old FM

If b) is incorrect, the missile is probably using the old FM, though there are other possibilities.

 

 

If the old FM is being used then it's definitely 'unfair' from the perspective of having comparable flight performance.

 

Any progress about ER`s? ;)

 

Meanwhile i see MATRA corporation DO MAGIC :doh:

[GGTharos]

And if anyone is interested in translating the relevant material, that would be amazing.

 

If someone is interested how real life R-27R1 works, there is a great reading material explaining exact guidance, etc. in the following book:

[JunMcKill]

I agree with GGTHAROS, we should make more tests, in particular those using ECM like chaff, which russian missiles are particulary likely to follow!

[myHelljumper]

More information please.

 

What was the launch speed and altitude?

 

How much G was it pulling?

 

What was the flight time?

 

 

I'd love to test all of this myself, but I don't have time.

 

 

These questions lead to the following:

 

a) The missile should NOT reach M4.5 from an M1 launch. Period :)

b) The missile should be losing a lot of speed in high-g turns. Period :)

 

If a) is incorrect, the rocket motor is too powerful OR it is using the old FM

If b) is incorrect, the missile is probably using the old FM, though there are other possibilities.

 

 

If the old FM is being used then it's definitely 'unfair' from the perspective of having comparable flight performance.

 

I agree, without a tacview file, we can't analyse anything :).

[TAW_Blaze]

More information please.

 

What was the launch speed and altitude?

 

How much G was it pulling?

 

What was the flight time?

 

 

I'd love to test all of this myself, but I don't have time.

 

 

These questions lead to the following:

 

a) The missile should NOT reach M4.5 from an M1 launch. Period :)

b) The missile should be losing a lot of speed in high-g turns. Period :)

 

If a) is incorrect, the rocket motor is too powerful OR it is using the old FM

If b) is incorrect, the missile is probably using the old FM, though there are other possibilities.

 

 

If the old FM is being used then it's definitely 'unfair' from the perspective of having comparable flight performance.

 

They were both flying at like 50kft. Basically no Gs at all, launch around 10 miles if I'm not mistaken. I was surprised Frostie didn't shoot earlier, but I guess he thought he was hidden.