Awacs and gci?

[JuliMonkey]

So question number one: I have bound a key for awacs bogey dope. So lets take ACG COLD WAR SERVER for example. When i press the bogey dope key i hear my pilot saying something in the radio. The problem is nobody talks back. I never get the heading to my target and the distance to my target. Same happens when i go into the communication menu press F7, F1 and then bogey dope or picture. How can i solve this? Do i need to set up the radio etc?

Second question: What is the difference between gci and awacs? What do you suggest to use when fighting on a cold war server against f5e tigers?

[QuiGon]

So question number one: I have bound a key for awacs bogey dope. So lets take ACG COLD WAR SERVER for example. When i press the bogey dope key i hear my pilot saying something in the radio. The problem is nobody talks back. I never get the heading to my target and the distance to my target. Same happens when i go into the communication menu press F7, F1 and then bogey dope or picture. How can i solve this? Do i need to set up the radio etc?

Second question: What is the difference between gci and awacs? What do you suggest to use when fighting on a cold war server against f5e tigers?

 

Yes, you have to configure your radio (turn it on and dial in the correct frequency/channel, which should be listed in the briefing).

 

GCI and AWACS is basically the same, with GCI beeing a ground radar station and AWACS an airborne radar.

[foxbat155]

Yes, you have to configure your radio (turn it on and dial in the correct frequency/channel, which should be listed in the briefing).

 

GCI and AWACS is basically the same, with GCI beeing a ground radar station and AWACS an airborne radar.

 

Well, you don't have to tune anything because data link is already pre-tuned by ground service. Even if during mission will show up channels change need, it's done automaticaly ( manual mode for ARL-SM is secondary, in case of automatics failure ).

 

Soviet aircrafts had bit different data link variant: ARL-SML and those aircraft could be GCI by AWACS (Tu-126) as well.

 

How look GCI procedure:

 

-after takeoff pilot reports readiness for mission,

-GCI gives command to turn on data link,

-when connection is established GCI assigns target and starts sending data to fighter,

-special guindance instrument shows to pilot direction and altitude which he should maintain,

-additional pointers on others instruments shows desired speed, engine rpm etc,

-when fighter will reach counted by GCI point in space pilot receives signal to turn on radar, and from that moment all rest is in his hands.

 

Some aircrafts like MiG-23P, Su-15TM, MiG-25P/PD and other are able do all operations completely automaticaly without pilot help.

[Kang]

You do have to select the correct radio frequency in the Mig-21bis, as it does not have a datalink. The fact that a system to get GCI contact without that exists in other planes (or variants) doesn't change that.

[Art-J]

Foxbat, these are all interesting facts, but completely off-topic, as the OP was asking about how things work (or how to make them work) in game, rather than how they worked in real life. Make a clear distinction here, because he seems to be a new user, not familiar with simplifications of DCS code, or the -21 module itself.

[foxbat155]

We don't have GCI in game, so I was thinking he asking about real things...:thumbup::music_whistling:

[probad]

use your eyeballs

[JuliMonkey]

use your eyeballs

Thanks for that good answer :chair:

[Kang]

We don't have GCI in game, so I was thinking he asking about real things...:thumbup::music_whistling:

I have to disagree. Set up an early warning radar station and hook it up and you got GCI working in game just fine. We just don't have the automatic digital datalink system you described, as the Mig-21bis isn't compatible with that.

[foxbat155]

GCI is a automated guidance (made by computer system ), this what you talking about is just voice guidance.

[m4ti140]

GCI stands for Ground Controlled Interception, any form of interception supported by a ground controller with ground based radar information is GCI. Look it up on Wikipedia. What you're talking about is probably LAZUR and it wasn't automatic either.

[Frederf]

GCI is any intercept which is controlled from the ground. It doesn't matter if it is digital datalink or smoke signal. A "talk on" is an example of GCI just like it was for Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain.

 

In DCS GCIs and AWACSs are the same function with different physical basing. Neither one will give you directives as you would expect from a real intercept controller but will give you threat info (pos/aspect).

 

I don't know why the radio shortcut to bogey dope isn't working while manual drill down through the radio menus to the same function works. Is the server using easy comms? What color is the text in the radio menus (white, black, gray)?

[Xxx]

So question number one: I have bound a key for awacs bogey dope. So lets take ACG COLD WAR SERVER for example. When i press the bogey dope key i hear my pilot saying something in the radio. The problem is nobody talks back. I never get the heading to my target and the distance to my target. Same happens when i go into the communication menu press F7, F1 and then bogey dope or picture. How can i solve this? Do i need to set up the radio etc?

Second question: What is the difference between gci and awacs? What do you suggest to use when fighting on a cold war server against f5e tigers?

 

Hello, I am a fairly new pilot on the Mig 21. If you look at the Mig 21 radio frequencies in the mission editor, pick one, say Ch. 1 (I use 0 for wingman). Then type a frequency in.

 

In the AWACS aircraft, enter the frequency you have in your Ch 1 Mig radio, in the edit section(set frequency). Just so the AWACS is transmitting on the same frequency your Mig has for Ch 1. AWACS will give you bearings range and altitude...BRA, to any bandits.

 

Alternatively, and more realistically for the Mig 21, place some GCI early warning radar units in your mission map. These ground based GCI units will give you Bearing, Range and Altitude. These were important for Mig 21 drivers, given the very limited AA radar in the Mig. With no look down capability, get your altitude wrong and you won't see any bandits! You can see the range of the GCI units in the mission editor, so you can cover the entire map. Incidentally, the GCI units always seem to be "tuned".....must be on guard?

 

By the way, I wish I had bought the Mig 21 earlier.....what a superb simulation!:thumbup:

 

Regards

 

David

Edited March 16, 2017 by Accipiter
typo

[foxbat155]

GCI stands for Ground Controlled Interception, any form of interception supported by a ground controller with ground based radar information is GCI. Look it up on Wikipedia. What you're talking about is probably LAZUR and it wasn't automatic either.

GCI is any intercept which is controlled from the ground. It doesn't matter if it is digital datalink or smoke signal. A "talk on" is an example of GCI just like it was for Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain.

 

We not talking about GCI generally, but regarding MiG-21 bis. In Soviet air defence doctrine all interceptions were done by automatic system АСУ "Воздух" (or later "Воздух-1M"). АСУ stand from "Automatic Guidance System"."Воздух" based mainly on ground radar stations, but was able gather data from AWACS ( Tu-126 ), Tu-126 was flying "Воздух" station and by modified ARL-SML was able guidance fighters in automatic mode.

Ground operator just assigned target to figher, all rest was done automaticaly by ground computer from "Каскад" system and sent by Lazur to fighter. One "Каскад" set was able count and send data to three fighters in the same time. Of course MiG-21Bis AFCS wasn't able steer aircraft automaticaly, but many other Soviet PVO fighters had this capability. Manual modes existed only for case when automatics failure.

Lazur was automatic, but just data link, small part of big system. Here page from Lazur manual:

 

"Values of course, speed, flight altitude and single commands relayed to aircrafts, are calculated automaticaly by counting instruments from "Каскад" equipment or manually by manual command feeder (2ЛАУ-1)"

 

First variant of "Воздух" started in 1960 and based on analog computing systems, newer digitalized "Воздух-1M" started in 1971.

[finger]

LAZUR

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/attahttps://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=159185&stc=1&d=1489757782chment.php?attachmentid=159183&stc=1&d=1489757738

[Kang]

We not talking about GCI generally, but regarding MiG-21 bis. In Soviet air defence doctrine all interceptions were done by automatic system АСУ "Воздух" (or later "Воздух-1M"). АСУ stand from "Automatic Guidance System"."Воздух" based mainly on ground radar stations, but was able gather data from AWACS ( Tu-126 ), Tu-126 was flying "Воздух" station and by modified ARL-SML was able guidance fighters in automatic mode.

Ground operator just assigned target to figher, all rest was done automaticaly by ground computer from "Каскад" system and sent by Lazur to fighter. One "Каскад" set was able count and send data to three fighters in the same time. Of course MiG-21Bis AFCS wasn't able steer aircraft automaticaly, but many other Soviet PVO fighters had this capability. Manual modes existed only for case when automatics failure.

 

Okay, that clears that up. The thing is: you of course were talking about this system while we were all talking about GCI in general, given how we don't have a Lazur-equipped MiG in DCS.

[Xxx]

Ground Controlled intercept began in ww1. Is well supported in DCS by two ground GCI units which may be strategically placed on the mission editor map. In the Mig 21, with no look down radar capability, its essential to know the altitude of the enemy. This realistically models the Russian tactic of using GCI to verbally guide the Mig 21 interceptors into the target.

 

A concise definition of GCI....

 

"Ground-controlled interception (GCI) is an air defence tactic whereby one or more radar stations or other observational stations are linked to a command communications centre which guides interceptor aircraft to an airborne target. This tactic was pioneered during World War I by the London Air Defence Area organization, which became the Royal Air Force's Dowding system in World War II."

 

Modern generation fighters (definitely not the Mig 21) use data link from AWACS and each other aircrafts radars within a flight. Apart from the fact that's classified, we don't have any aircraft capable of this in DCS.....yet:music_whistling: So our DCS AWACS use verbal BRA guidance.

 

So for now, we have GCI modelled. You can even add a GCI template to your missions, mentioned in the Mig 21 manual.

 

Regards

 

David

[Frederf]

Fishbed-L has Lazur, Fishbed-N (DCS) does not. The former would be used by the PVO in border defense with suitable support equipment. The latter is used by VVS (or export) in mobilized operations in support of ground troops where it is more independent of ground controllers. Instead it gets POLYOT-OI system (possibly replacing the other equipment physically). There are vestiges of the Lazur system in the cockpit but they correctly do not function (guidance knob, gauge pointers, director lights on radar scope).

 

If a voice-only GCI mission was performed by a non-Lazur-equipped MiG-21bis I want to read a manual how it was done. In DCS you just get "032 80 km 5000 hot" and that's it. In a real GCI you would get a lot better instruction from the ground of when to turn, what altitude, afterburner timing, etc.

 

Tactics used by the ground controller in GCI are very interesting and I haven't found any source of information on this topic.

[Dolphin887]

Tactics used by the ground controller in GCI are very interesting and I haven't found any source of information on this topic.

 

Controllers are educated and trained to do this, and gain experience in time. You will probably not find any documents that cover the training and tactics, but let me say that it could be complex as you want it to be...

 

Good controller will decide critical targets, keep you undetected, sneak-guide you behind them with your radar in stand-by, zoom you up and behind, and tell you when to turn your radar on (missiles can reach the target). Acquire the target either visually or with the radar, and shoot with either IR or SAR. Your wingman/s do the same. Hit them, split them and finish if you can, if not - dust off towards nearest AA or friendly fighter group. They might make another sneak run.

 

Excellent controller will allocate an aircraft or two to keep the enemy busy, while you execute your plan.

 

Bad controler will get you killed pretty soon.

 

Machine guidance is not the best option due to lack of flexibility and creativity.

[OnlyforDCS]

Controllers are educated and trained to do this, and gain experience in time. You will probably not find any documents that cover the training and tactics, but let me say that it could be complex as you want it to be...

 

Good controller will decide critical targets, keep you undetected, sneak-guide you behind them with your radar in stand-by, zoom you up and behind, and tell you when to turn your radar on (missiles can reach the target). Acquire the target either visually or with the radar, and shoot with either IR or SAR. Your wingman/s do the same. Hit them, split them and finish if you can, if not - dust off towards nearest AA or friendly fighter group. They might make another sneak run.

 

Excellent controller will allocate an aircraft or two to keep the enemy busy, while you execute your plan.

 

Bad controler will get you killed pretty soon.

 

Machine guidance is not the best option due to lack of flexibility and creativity.

 

If someone designed a full campaign (or even a mission or two) with proper voiceover in DCS for the Mig21, that worked like Dolphin described, I would buy the hell out of it. Man. That would be damn cool. I imagine it would be almost impossible to script in this engine though. :(

[foxbat155]

 

If a voice-only GCI mission was performed by a non-Lazur-equipped MiG-21bis I want to read a manual how it was done.

 

Tactics used by the ground controller in GCI are very interesting and I haven't found any source of information on this topic.

 

I don't think that 75B was ever used for pure interceptions in SU, because was considered as fighter-bomber and served in limited quantity only in WWS units, not PVO. Other countries is different story, they used 75B for this, because they had no choice.

 

If you wanna gather some info about Soviet GCI, you have to find this book:

 

 

Over 700 pages, history, equipment, organization, tactics etc.

 

Machine guidance is not the best option due to lack of flexibility and creativity.

 

Well, I think it's depend from point of view. Soviets considered automated interceptions as over twice more effective compared to traditional voice guidance, and that's why they built so big and complicated system. Guidance officer always oversaw interception progress, and was able to change in every moment commands, tactics etc, so there was a lot space for flexibility.

[Vatikus]

If someone designed a full campaign (or even a mission or two) with proper voiceover in DCS for the Mig21, that worked like Dolphin described, I would buy the hell out of it. Man. That would be damn cool. I imagine it would be almost impossible to script in this engine though. :(

It's not pretty, but it's doable... I've coded quasi Vozduh GCI system which guides you via Lazur on the target in a mode depending on target behaviour..

However since I got kind of burned out with waiting for mig21 bug fixes, the project is on hold.

[portman]

....which guides you via Lazur...

And how is that going to work in an aircraft not equipped with Lazur?

[MAD-MM]

Here found this sometime ago about Lazur and operating the Sapfir Radar, and our MIG is equipped with SAU instead of Lazur so would not wait to long...

http://www.flyshark.republika.pl/Stacja_angielska/sapfir.htm

Edited March 21, 2017 by MAD-MM

[Vatikus]

And how is that going to work in an aircraft not equipped with Lazur?

As noted in my post "quasi"... I am fully aware that we do not have modelled instruments. What I did was show same data which would been transimted with Lazur via text.

It was my experiment if it is possible to have something like that in DCS and it is.

The harder part is making GCI AI to dynamically alter flight paths for intercept package (usually it was consisted of at least 3 pairs in wartime: bait, attack, escort)